Mets Retire Another Number!

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Big shot dudes that have fewer fWAR than Koo's 63.0: Bob F. Feller: 62.6 Dennis F. Eckersley: 61.8 Dazzy F. Vance: 61.6 Juan F. Marichal: 61.2 Rube F. Waddell: 60.0 Don F. Drysdale: 59.3 Jim F. Palmer: 56.8 Dwight F. Gooden: 56.7 I'm (again) not saying that this stat is the be-all-and-end-all, but outside of Eck (for half his career), these were all-starting pitchers, so any honest way of measuring value above replacement is illuminating. I'm neither for nor against this, but don't kid yourself. Koosman was the giraffe's tits. If he got a quick pass from the BBWAA when his name came up for the Hall, it's largely because he got credited with a lot of losses that really belong to Joe McDonald and M. Donald Grant.

He had some injury bad luck, too., He was on a HOF trajectory after his first two seasons but then dealt with some arm issues in 1970 that, I believe, lowered his ceiling forever. But you could fill the Albert Hall with players who fit that description.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Guest

[kcmets]

I haven't read the thread yet (and can't for awhile) but is this some kind of

the current holder of 36 will no longer be with us next week thing?

[nymr83]

Frayed Knot wrote: Just because there are no rules doesn't mean there shouldn't be standards. Not concrete ones maybe, but some kind of threshold which keeps from giving into ceremony whims and/or fan demands that more numbers be retired for the purpose of having more retired numbers. [speculation] As for why Kooz and not Wright: I suspect they're going chronologically during this new era of past player relationship mending meaning Kooz is perhaps just the first step on the way to Tug who will lead them into the Keith/Gary/Dwight/Darryl era (and can they really honor all them while ignoring Ronnie?!?). The ceremony du annum then leads to Franco & Fonzie, then Beltran (Ceetar will lead the charge!!) on the way to Wright & Reyes. And by then deGrom will be retired ...

Translation: Wilpon figures he has YEARS, even DECADES to squeeze some dollars and attendance out of the "David Wright crowd" for a day. the median age middle-class "David Wright Fan" has likely not even reached that 'sweet spot' between college and marriage where expendable income hits its peak yet.



meanwhile, the time to exploit "Koosman Fans" wallets is running out.

[Centerfield]

Or, it could be that Koos is 76 years old and they want to do this not only when he's alive, but when he's of sound mind.



I always assume the worst when it comes to the Wilpons too, but here, there may be a less selfish reason. Though I'm sure they're well aware of what you mentioned.



I never really thought Koos fit the bill of "retire his number" good, but he was before my time. I defer to you guys. I would vote:



Yes:

1. Beltran

2. Wright

3. Carter



Maybe:

1. Gooden



No to everyone else.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Or, it could be that Koos is 76 years old and they want to do this not only when he's alive, but when he's of sound mind. I always assume the worst when it comes to the Wilpons too, but here, there may be a less selfish reason. Though I'm sure they're well aware of what you mentioned. I never really thought Koos fit the bill of "retire his number" good, but he was before my time. I defer to you guys. I would vote: Yes: 1. Beltran 2. Wright 3. Carter Maybe: 1. Gooden No to everyone else.

Can you explain your case for why Carter deserves to have his number retired but Koosman doesn't? I have no idea what Carter did to deserve to have his number retired that Koosman himself didn't do 25 times over. Carter is third on your list? I'm not sure Carter cracks my first dozen.

[Edgy MD]

Not for nothing, but when Koosman entered the Mets Hall of Fame in 1989, the glorious wonder that was the scheduled double-header was on its last fumes. So unlike so many ceremonies of honor before, the Koosman induction did not happen before a packed house that had just enjoyed one game, was anticipating another, and were delighted to have a treat in between. Koosman's induction came before scheduled first pitch time, with folks still streaming in from the train platform, finding their seats or grabbing an early concession.



There's probably video out there, but if I remember correctly, the stands were, like, 20%, full even though he was inducted in an era of regularly packed houses. And it was kind of bummer hearing him make a speech into the mostly empty and not fully attentive stands of Shea. Spider-Man's wedding had a more engaged audience.



Here's to them doing it right this time.

[Centerfield]

Or, it could be that Koos is 76 years old and they want to do this not only when he's alive, but when he's of sound mind. I always assume the worst when it comes to the Wilpons too, but here, there may be a less selfish reason. Though I'm sure they're well aware of what you mentioned. I never really thought Koos fit the bill of "retire his number" good, but he was before my time. I defer to you guys. I would vote: Yes: 1. Beltran 2. Wright 3. Carter Maybe: 1. Gooden No to everyone else. Can you explain your case for why Carter deserves to have his number retired but Koosman doesn't? I have no idea what Carter did to deserve to have his number retired that Koosman himself didn't do 25 times over. Carter is third on your list? I'm not sure Carter cracks my first dozen.

He meets the criteria of "Hall of Famer who played a significant part of his career with the Mets". World Champion.



As I mentioned, Koos was before my time. His omission is based on ignorance rather than reason.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Significant is open to Interpretation. And David Wright fits this criteria because .......?

[Edgy MD]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22737 time=1569361501 user_id=68]But you could fill the Albert Hall with players who fit that description.

[batmagadanleadoff]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22746 time=1569364557 user_id=68]
Significant is open to Interpretation. And David Wright fits this criteria because .......?

[Frayed Knot]

=G-Fafif post_id=22736 time=1569361055 user_id=55]
I'm not sure who exactly composes the Hall of Fame committee that J. Wilpon said made this decision, but I assume it still includes Gary and Howie (who were on the previous iteration) and Jay (the alumni affairs macher). I have faith in their judgment where this sort of thing is concerned (and in Howie and Gary where any Met thing is concerned).

Edited September 24, 2019 by Guest

[Fman99]

This is at least partially because the cheese has slid off of Tom Terrific's cracker, sad as it is to say. Good on Kooz though, I love it. Put a big 36 in the Rotunda while you're at it.

[whippoorwill]

I am very happy about this. Jerry was a great Met and was a major part of the Mets becoming a respected team.

Agreed there's more guys that should be added too. Not sure why the Mets are so stingy about retiring numbers but I guess you have to save some for active players.

Or maybe start using letters!

[kcmets]

=whippoorwill post_id=22769 time=1569373473 user_id=79]Agreed there's more guys that should be added too. Not sure why the Mets are so stingy about retiring numbers but I guess you have to save some for active players.

[kcmets]

Not retiring numbers all willy-nilly is really the only thing the Mets have

gotten right through the many decades team-history wise.

[Gwreck]

Harsh but true.

[MFS62]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22717 time=1569358009 user_id=68]
Fuck youse all. Kooz fucking deserves it 10 times over. Anybody here mentions Gary Carter and his two good Mets seasons and I'll projectile barf on you. Why Kooz over Wright? Because 36 should've been retired decades ago.

[Lefty Specialist]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22717 time=1569358009 user_id=68]
Fuck youse all. Kooz fucking deserves it 10 times over. Anybody here mentions Gary Carter and his two good Mets seasons and I'll projectile barf on you. Why Kooz over Wright? Because 36 should've been retired decades ago.

[Centerfield]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22748 time=1569364843 user_id=68]
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22746 time=1569364557 user_id=68]
Significant is open to Interpretation. And David Wright fits this criteria because .......?

[seawolf17]

I'm good with this; Koos was before my time, but I think it's a nice tribute that he and Seaver represent the early years of the franchise.



Wright should be next, and I think that's a no-brainer.



I see the arguments on Carter, but he's a no from me. I'm as big a Keith fan as anyone, but I think Straw has a more compelling argument and rarely gets mentioned.



Straw > Keith > Carter > Doc



(I also honestly think that Doc could get his shit together, he'd leapfrog Gary.)

[Centerfield]

Ok. Here's my revised list. This time with actual research.



The Met most deserving of having his number retired is Beltran. This is really a no-brainer. He is a Hall of Famer, who played more games with the Mets than any other team. His numbers were better with the Mets than at any other stop in his career. He is one of the top position players the Mets have had all time. Arguably top 3. In no way less than top 5. Two way player, great teammate. End of discussion.



Next is Wright. He won't make the Hall of Fame, but was well on his way before injuries derailed him. I know, we could say this about a lot of players, but this is a subjective criteria. Lifelong Met, career leader in nearly every category. Team captain, beloved during his entire career. Worthy of the exception.



I think I would draw the line here. No other numbers go on the wall.



Koosman was before my time, but it looks like he was a very good pitcher who was at times great. 12 year Met career, never seriously considered for the Hall of Fame. If you retire his number, you pretty much have to retire Gooden's as well. Gooden has similar overall numbers (WAR, ERA etc), but had a period of dominance that Koos never had. If it were up to me, I'd say no to both, but if you retire one, you have to retire the other.



As far as position players, Carter is a no. Likely the least qualified among those in the discussion. Batmags is right. 2 good seasons only. Keith is closer, but still a no. He played 6.5 seasons as a Met, 4.5 good ones, 1 ok one. 1 bad one. I don't think it's enough.



Straw is the only borderline candidate. 8 seasons as a Met and was awesome in all 8. If he went on to finish his HOF career, his number would already be on the wall, but unfortunately he never really put it together again outside of his first season in LA. I would be inclined to take a pass on Darryl, but if you retire Koos and Gooden, Darryl deserves to be there too.



Retiring 24 for Mays is silly.



So in summary, I'd retire 15 and 5. Leave all other numbers in circulation.



As far as predictions, I think the Mets will retire 15, 5, 36, 16, 17 and 18. And each announcement will come as a cover for bad news (selling at the deadline, Mets FA signing with another team, mathematical elimination).

[seawolf17]

I keep forgetting Beltran. And I saw Fonzie in the list in the other thread and thought "shit, yeah, maybe."



Problem is, you don't retire numbers for guys about whom you say "oh, yeah, that guy. I guess so."

[batmagadanleadoff]

Talk about a slippery slope with if you retire this guy you gotta do that guy. I could never get my head around the retire Carter's number camp, but it's a noisy and sizable camp. Tbe Mets'll retire 8 and I won't like it. Me, I don't think Carter deserves it -- period. -- and it's not even close, not even debatable in my head. If you retire Carter, you gotta retire Clendenon, and he doesn't deserve it either. That's my slippery slope for Carter. Plus, though I loved Carter as a player when he was still good, I really disliked Carter on a personal level. He was a classless phony fraud manipulator but he covered it up because he paid his taxes to the last penny, went to church and always finished his milk and cookies and the world is full of suckers who'll buy into that act.

[Centerfield]

It's crazy how undervalued Beltran is by Mets fans. No way he should be an "oh yeah" guy.



He's beloved at every other stop.

[Edgy MD]

There are a lot of Mets fans who irrationally hate Beltran. And more than a few with a fake patriotic stick up their asses about Walter Reed National Military Medical Center. Then there are the entitled cherry-picking turdz who are going to make the playoff-ending strikeout the summary of his career, when he is possibly (or even probably) the BEST POST-SEASON PLAYER EVER.



Part of me says the Mets need to roll out tributes to Beltran carefully and deliberately — get him into the booth for a visit or two, get photo ops for him with children in Mets hats. This sort of rehabilitation of his image wouldn't be because anything about him seriously needs rehabilitating, but to save the embarrassment of a tribute being ruined by a loud minority.



The other part wonders if it's better to just let entitled loud-mouthed idiots humiliate themselves in public.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: There are a lot of Mets fans who irrationally hate Beltran. And more than a few with a fake patriotic stick up their asses about Walter Reed National Military Medical Center. Then there are the entitled cherry-picking turdz who are going to make the playoff-ending strikeout the summary of his career, when he is possibly (or even probably) the BEST POST-SEASON PLAYER EVER. Part of me says the Mets need to roll out tributes to Beltran carefully and deliberately — get him into the booth for a visit or two, get photo ops for him with children in Mets hats. This sort of rehabilitation of his image wouldn't be because anything about him seriously needs rehabilitating, but to save the embarrassment of a tribute being ruined by a loud minority. The other part wonders if it's better to just let entitled loud-mouthed idiots humiliate themselves in public.

It's also possible that Beltran wants nothing to do with the Mets. At least as far as ownership is concerned. They pushed him to play hurt, pushed leaks and whispers how he was "soft". Imagine that. The guy that played through a broken face being soft. Finally went ahead against the Mets orders and got the surgery that saved his career.



Beltran is probably a better person than me, because if I were Carlos I would pretend I had no idea who was calling when Jeff started throwing out dates for the ceremony.

[batmagadanleadoff]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22846 time=1569421067 user_id=68]
Talk about a slippery slope with if you retire this guy you gotta do that guy. I could never get my head around the retire Carter's number camp, but it's a noisy and sizable camp. Tbe Mets'll retire 8 and I won't like it. Me, I don't think Carter deserves it -- period. -- and it's not even close, not even debatable in my head. If you retire Carter, you gotta retire Clendenon, and he doesn't deserve it either. That's my slippery slope for Carter. Plus, though I loved Carter as a player when he was still good, I really disliked Carter on a personal level. He was a classless phony fraud manipulator but he covered it up because he paid his taxes to the last penny, went to church and always finished his milk and cookies and the world is full of suckers who'll buy into that act.

[seawolf17]

It's crazy how undervalued Beltran is by Mets fans. No way he should be an "oh yeah" guy. He's beloved at every other stop.

You're right; it's so bizarre that I keep forgetting him. But realistically, he's behind Straw on pretty much every single all-time team record list, plus Straw has a ring.

[stevejrogers]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22846 time=1569421067 user_id=68]
Talk about a slippery slope with if you retire this guy you gotta do that guy. I could never get my head around the retire Carter's number camp, but it's a noisy and sizable camp. Tbe Mets'll retire 8 and I won't like it. Me, I don't think Carter deserves it -- period. -- and it's not even close, not even debatable in my head. If you retire Carter, you gotta retire Clendenon, and he doesn't deserve it either. That's my slippery slope for Carter. Plus, though I loved Carter as a player when he was still good, I really disliked Carter on a personal level. He was a classless phony fraud manipulator but he covered it up because he paid his taxes to the last penny, went to church and always finished his milk and cookies and the world is full of suckers who'll buy into that act.

[stevejrogers]

I mean, you'd think he was actually on Derek Jeter's level of a sociopath the way you foam at the mouth about Carter.



Did he stiff you?



Tell you to pound sand because you didn't want to make an on the spot donation to his charity for an autograph?