Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

[metsmarathon]

looking forward, 2021 is going to be the opportunity to maybe possibly clear the board of some of the backlog. the first year candidate list is headed by such luminaries as aramis ramirez, torii hunter, mark buehrle, and tim hudson. none of whom are hall of famers.



and after derek jeter, there's really also no 2020 guys who should merit much consideration, unless you have an unhealthy hankering for jason giambi, alfonso soriano, or bobby abreu.

[seawolf17]

and after derek jeter, there's really also no 2020 guys who should merit much consideration, unless you have an unhealthy hankering for jason giambi, alfonso soriano, or bobby abreu.

The big pre-list from BR: https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2020.shtmlhttps://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2020.shtml



Rk Name YoB

1 Curt Schilling 8th

2 Roger Clemens 8th

3 Barry Bonds 8th

4 Larry Walker 10th

5 Omar Vizquel 3rd

6 Manny Ramirez 4th

7 Jeff Kent 7th

8 Scott Rolen 3rd

9 Billy Wagner 5th

10 Todd Helton 2nd

11 Gary Sheffield 6th

12 Andy Pettitte 2nd

13 Sammy Sosa 8th

14 Andruw Jones 3rd

15 Derek Jeter 1st

16 Bobby Abreu 1st

17 Jason Giambi 1st

18 Cliff Lee 1st

19 Rafael Furcal 1st

20 Eric Chavez 1st

21 Josh Beckett 1st

22 Brian Roberts 1st

23 Alfonso Soriano 1st

24 Carlos Pena 1st

25 Paul Konerko 1st

26 Chone Figgins 1st

27 Marco Scutaro 1st

28 Brad Penny 1st

29 Raul Ibanez 1st

30 Jason Bartlett 1st

31 Adam Dunn 1st

32 Lyle Overbay 1st

33 J.J. Putz 1st

34 Ryan Ludwick 1st

35 Jose Valverde 1st

36 Alex Gonzalez 1st

37 Jamey Wright 1st

38 Joe Saunders 1st

39 Nate McLouth 1st

40 Heath Bell 1st

41 Kyle Farnsworth 1st



Not all of those guys will make the actual ballot, of course. But Cap'n Intangibles will get in, and the drumbeat will start to get really loud for the Bonds/Clemens contingent, as well as for Walker and Schilling.

[nymr83]

i hope Schilling, Bonds, (not Clemens), Walker, Vizquel, Ramirez, Kent, Rolen, Wagner, 10 veterans committee guys, a few umpires, and Mr Met all get in too. anything to take the spotlight away from jeter.



wait for the articles that all these guys should "wait for next year" so as to give Saint Derek his solo enshrinement

[metirish]

I was at the gym last night with two Yankees fans, one, Charlie is a die hard, as the voting came in he was thrilled that Moose made it...I started taking the piss saying how he was borderline etc....Charlie filliped out , like frothing at the mouth mad....really, if you are getting that upset then you know he is borderline , he starts screaming about how the Mets only have two HOF players...it was all rather funny.....

[Gwreck]

Each year these ballots come out, I am surprised to see Roger Clemens getting slightly more votes than Barry Bonds. It's happened every year (this year Clemens was only +2; it's ranged from +1 to +8).



I understand (even if I disagree) why voters omit both from their ballots. But I can find no legitimate basis to find one but not the other worthy.

[Edgy MD]

Edgy MD wrote: And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more? That's speculative. It was his manager's job to deploy him. It was his job to perform. And he did. Even after https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1086&position=3B/DH#valuedocking him for not playing defense year after year, Fangraphs still credited him with 65.5 fWAR. His career DWAR was -9.0. And that is for the (roughly) 27% of his potential innings played. That projects to -33.33 for a career, or a net WAR (65.5 - 33.33) of 32.17 if he had played in the field for his entire career. Later

That 65.5 number is with defense factored in, which I thought was pretty clear. You're double-taxing him.

[Edgy MD]

=Centerfield post_id=1635 time=1548256573 user_id=65]And I think the only reason that a unanimous vote resulted is not because of the greatness of Rivera, but because vote shaming has become a thing.

[seawolf17]

Let's take a look at the defense thing for a second.



He played third base, primarily, coming up. From 1990-92, he was their primary 3B. After some shortened seasons (on the DL, I'm assuming) by 1996, he was a full-time DH. In 1996, Russ Davis took over at third and was mostly, admittedly, terrible, but had some pop. By 2000, it was David Bell, and then Jeff Cirillo, both of whom were very good defensively, and even if you say he's too old to play 3B at that point because he's in his late 30s, well, John Olerud was at first. So he really was perfectly positioned.

[Frayed Knot]

=Gwreck post_id=1659 time=1548268213 user_id=56]
Each year these ballots come out, I am surprised to see Roger Clemens getting slightly more votes than Barry Bonds. It's happened every year (this year Clemens was only +2; it's ranged from +1 to +8).



I understand (even if I disagree) why voters omit both from their ballots. But I can find no legitimate basis to find one but not the other worthy.

[nymr83]

Frayed Knot wrote: =Gwreck post_id=1659 time=1548268213 user_id=56] Each year these ballots come out, I am surprised to see Roger Clemens getting slightly more votes than Barry Bonds. It's happened every year (this year Clemens was only +2; it's ranged from +1 to +8). I understand (even if I disagree) why voters omit both from their ballots. But I can find no legitimate basis to find one but not the other worthy.

One explanation I've heard is that while Bonds (eventually/reluctantly/kinda/sorta) admitted to being a steroids user, there's no such 'proof' that's been hung onto Clemens.

[Guest 41Forever]

=Gwreck post_id=1659 time=1548268213 user_id=56]
Each year these ballots come out, I am surprised to see Roger Clemens getting slightly more votes than Barry Bonds. It's happened every year (this year Clemens was only +2; it's ranged from +1 to +8).



I understand (even if I disagree) why voters omit both from their ballots. But I can find no legitimate basis to find one but not the other worthy.

[Edgy MD]

I can make an argument for Bonds and not Clemens. If you accept the generally accepted timeline, that Clemens began juicing after leaving the Sox following a couple of pedestrian seasons, and Bonds began juicing in 1999 following jealousy ver the McGwire/Sosa charade, then Bonds is already a Hall of Famer before cheating, while Clemens is not quite.



I can't make an argument for Clemens and not Bonds — at least, not one I can pretend to get behind.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: I can make an argument for Bonds and not Clemens. If you accept the generally accepted timeline, that Clemens began juicing after leaving the Sox following a couple of pedestrian seasons, and Bonds began juicing in 1999 following jealousy ver the McGwire/Sosa charade, then Bonds is already a Hall of Famer before cheating, while Clemens is not quite. I can't make an argument for Clemens and not Bonds — at least, not one I can pretend to get behind.

I dunno. If you take the view that taking steroids is essentially cheating, then you're saying that its OK to cheat once you've reached a certain level of achievement. What's next? Players with 500 career HR's are permitted to gamble on their own baseball games?

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, but that's not the view I'm taking. At least, not for the sake of the argument.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, but that's not the view I'm taking....

Why not?

[G-Fafif]

While Rivera broke the unanimity barrier, the writers must go one better in 2020 and elect Jeter not only unanimously but alone. Any ballot that has more than one check mark should be considered a desecration of true immortality and therefore marked invalid by the BBWAA. Baseball's most sacred star cannot be compared to peers, for he is peerless. Jeff Idelson, Jane Forbes Clark and the other Cooperstown decisionmakers need to inform previous Hall of Famers that they may be seated for the Captain's induction, but down in the audience, looking up at Derek -- the way a nation of baseball-loving fans always have and always will view him. Due respect to every living inductee from Aaron to Yount, but no one can share a stage with Derek Jeter. He is singular.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Guest

[Guest 41Forever]

=G-Fafif post_id=1688 time=1548278951 user_id=55]

While Rivera broke the unanimity barrier, the writers must go one better in 2020 and elect Jeter not only unanimously but alone. Any ballot that has more than one check mark should be considered a desecration of true immortality and therefore marked invalid by the BBWAA. Baseball's most sacred star cannot be compared to peers, for he is peerless. Jeff Idelson, Jane Clark Forbes and the other Cooperstown decisionmakers need to inform previous Hall of Famers that they may be seated for the Captain's induction, but down in the audience, looking up at Derek -- the way a nation of baseball-loving fans always have and always will view him. Due respect to every living inductee from Aaron to Yount, but no one can share a stage with Derek Jeter. He is singular.

[Edgy MD]

Andy Pettitte has already pledged to release his delegates so his 9.9% vote could be added to Derek Jeter's total and he can get more than 100%.

[whippoorwill]

Okay with all four, surprising Rivera is the first unanimous

[MFS62]

Edgy MD wrote: That 65.5 number is with defense factored in, which I thought was pretty clear. You're double-taxing him.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I still don't think he belongs.

But, me being me, I'd still want to see what would happen if they invite a pitch and putt champion to play in the Masters.

Later

Edited January 23, 2019 by Guest

[Guest 41Forever]

Edgy MD wrote: Andy Pettitte has already pledged to release his delegates so his 9.9% vote could be added to Derek Jeter's total and he can get more than 100%.

The forum is on fire tonight!!! Nice!!

[Lefty Specialist]

Rivera was basically the best at his job of anybody in baseball over an 18-year period. I don't begrudge him the 100%. I won't be within 200 miles of Cooperstown next July, though.

[seawolf17]

Lefty Specialist wrote: Rivera was basically the best at his job of anybody in baseball over an 18-year period. I don't begrudge him the 100%. I won't be within 200 miles of Cooperstown next July, though.

I'd say "me neither," but Rochester appears to be juuuust less than 200 miles from Cooperstown.

[Guest 41Forever]

Halladay's family requested tha this plaque not have a team logo on it. One columnist thinks none of the people enshrined moving forward should have a cap logo:



https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2019/01/23/hall-of-fame-should-do-away-with-cap-logos-on-plaques/https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2019/01/23/hall-of-fame-should-do-away-with-cap-logos-on-plaques/

[stevejrogers]

Lefty Specialist wrote: Rivera was basically the best at his job of anybody in baseball over an 18-year period. I don't begrudge him the 100%. I won't be within 200 miles of Cooperstown next July, though. I'd say "me neither," but Rochester appears to be juuuust less than 200 miles from Cooperstown.

Mets are in San Francisco that weekend.



Sounds like a good time for a Wolfies Family Trip to Northern California!

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

Hey Rogers, vote in the Tabloid Derby!

[Benjamin Grimm]

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Hey Rogers, vote in the Tabloid Derby!

That may have backfired.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Hey Rogers, vote in the Tabloid Derby! That may have backfired.

I coulda told you that. He's an uplifter.

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

I have Kompromat on Rogers

[Frayed Knot]

So Mussina has joined Roy Halladay -- not that he crashed a plane after hot-shotting around the Gulf of Mexico but that he, like Halladay's family, has chosen to go into the HoF with a logo-less hat.

He was an Oriole slightly longer than he was a Yank-me [10 seasons to 8; 147 wins to 123; 288 starts to 248] but he's opting for choice C 'None of the Above'



Not sure how things ended with him in Baltimore but since last week's vote Mussina is not coming off as being the most popular guy ever to ply his trade in da Bronx.

Part of it probably has to do with the obvious attention for Mariano, but Michael Kay, a few days ago, basically said Mussina was an ass (difficult in interviews) and, to boot, he doesn't even

deserve to be in the Hall. Also when Saint Derek penned a public congrats to Rivera after the vote he failed to even mention that Mussina was involved in the same vote.

And while none of this by itself proves that there's a serious club/player strain, I tend to think none of this kind of stuff happens in Yanqui-land without being part of a larger plan.

Sounds like somebody's not going to be thought of as a 'TY' and that wall/number status isn't in his future despite his Cooperstown status.