Harvey's innings

[metsmarathon]

this whole innings limit kerfuffle with harvey is terrible and awful and trivial and meaningless.

at worst, to this point, the worst thing that harvey has done is be bad - like comically bad - at PR. he's like lebron, or maybe at worst arod without all the pesky ped stuff. seriously. his worst sin is that he sucks at talking about and drawing attention to himself.

we knew going into the season there was an innings limit. are we surprised that it's come up now that it's the end of the season?

is he shutting down? no. is he now being managed? yes. is it really a surprise? no.

look, i think they should've been more proactive earlier in the season and skipped a start here and there all along the way. but then, when you're fighting for first place, you want to have all your guns available for the ablazin' so you kick the can down the road. well, now htat we're at the end of the road, the can's been kicked as far as it can. and now, somehting needs to be done.

if there is such a thing as an innings limit, be it hard or soft, then it's gotta be there no matter how hte team is doing, right? now, i think it's a soft innings cap, and that on inning 181 his army isn't likely to go flying off, but also that every inning beyond that increases the likelihood of further damage. how much more, i cannot say, and neither can anybody else, i'll wager. so it's smart to manage it.

but really, when it all comes down to it, i'm convinced that this is all, all because of little stevie strasburg, and is a controversy manufactured by and of and for scott boras.

boras was hte one to open his damn mouth, not harvey. boras set this into motion, at the clear detriment to his player. but also to protect his relationship with another player. because how can boras not fight to shut down harvey after he fought to shut down strasburg, and in effect forfeited strasburgs' chance of winning the world series? boras has to fight to shut down harvey or else tacitly admit to fucking over strasburg.

harvey may not have handled it right in response, (and may have been blindsided to an extent) nor did hte mets, but this one lay squarely at the feet of boras.

[Guest themetfairy]

metsmarathon wrote: harvey may not have handled it right in response, (and may have been blindsided to an extent) nor did hte mets, but this one lay squarely at the feet of boras.

This - 100%

[ashie62]

themetfairy wrote: metsmarathon wrote: harvey may not have handled it right in response, (and may have been blindsided to an extent) nor did hte mets, but this one lay squarely at the feet of boras. This - 100%

Same here.

[batmagadanleadoff]

metsmarathon wrote: harvey may not have handled it right in response, (and may have been blindsided to an extent) nor did hte mets, but this one lay squarely at the feet of boras.

It's still murky. Forgot about all the explanations and clarifications and double-talk for a second. What really happened? Did Boras create the issue? (probably) And if so, did Harvey truly want to follow Boras's lead, or did Harvey make those controversial innings-limits quotes against his true wishes and only under the influence of Boras? Have these questions been answered yet?

I agree that Harvey wasn't handled properly. But Harvey didn't help himself either. He's a dope, as far as I'm concerned.

[seawolf17]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I agree that Harvey wasn't handled properly. But Harvey didn't help himself either. He's a dope, as far as I'm concerned.

I think this has become painfully obvious over the years.

[MFS62]

This wishful thinking has popped up a few times in the past few weeks (another spot I remember was WEEI sports radio- Boston)
http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/09/08/matt-harvey-red-sox/FyN4Al5nM2Lahg1QPA25GK/story.html

Later

[Benjamin Grimm]

That's something to think about. Xander Bogaerts is only 22, already has success in the big leagues, under team control through 2019 (one year more than Harvey is). What's not to like? And his agent is Scott Boras! (Okay, there's something not to like.)

[Ceetar]

Harvey's a dumb jock. And that's fine. As I read it, his press conference the other day was just him reiterating the plan as he knew it. The problem was that none of US had heard the plan, because the Mets were (wisely) playing it close to the vest.

So there's a number been floated and a soft, fluid plan that is based on the Mets situation and the playoffs and what not, and everything's fine. Until Boras opens up his mouth and starts making things public. Because he doesn't care about the playoffs and figures Harvey's rolling and approaching a number that's been discussed and it'd be a great time to shut him down and freeze his ERA at a low point. Harvey, having hired Boras to protect his interests and doctors to protect his arm. They, despite any evidence, obviously err on the side of hard caps and 'stop pitching'.

whatever. fwiw, in Collin's post game conference, it certainly sounded like he wanted Harvey to pitch in September and have a rhythm going.

[Edgy MD]

I got your Xander Bogaerts right here. What are you jerk faces trying to do? Make Wilmer cry again?

[Benjamin Grimm]

More like make Ruben cry. (And maybe Dilson too.) I see Wilmer as the regular second baseman next year.

[TransMonk]

Rubin said on ESPN radio that the Mets plan to skip Harvey's next start.

I've heard the rumblings that they want to start him against the Yanks (I have no idea why they would do that other than promotion), but that would likely be his last start in the regular season (unless the Mets still have not won the division when the Nats come to town for the final series).

Still no word on how/if he would line up in a potential playoff series.

[Benjamin Grimm]

My guess is that they see the Yankees as one of their tougher remaining opponents and would therefore want to use Harvey to get a better chance of winning the game. I don't think they need a Harvey start to sell tickets. A Mets-Yankees series in September with both teams in a pennant race is not going to have a lot of empty seats.

[Ceetar]

TransMonk wrote: Rubin said on ESPN radio that the Mets plan to skip Harvey's next start. I've heard the rumblings that they want to start him against the Yanks (I have no idea why they would do that other than promotion), but that would likely be his last start in the regular season (unless the Mets still have not won the division when the Nats come to town for the final series). Still no word on how/if he would line up in a potential playoff series.

As far as I can tell, this is all mostly conjecture.

The story was, before Boras bloviated all over everything again, was that they'd probably skip one more start. So next one. But after that, it's silly to skip. Sunday against the Yankees is his day, follow by Saturday in Cincinati, with one more start at home against the Nats. I feel like you'd want, and the Mets would want, two starts going into the 4 game break to be on rhythm. Especially after a short outing yesterday. You want to make sure his arm's stretched out and comfortable with 100-110 for the playoffs. Because hurting his overall endurance seems like it'd be more detrimental to his health than a regular diet of 100 pitch outings.

[Gwreck]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: My guess is that they see the Yankees as one of their tougher remaining opponents

I don't think there's any question whatsoever that the Yankees are the single toughest remaining opponent on the schedule.
Pitching Harvey in that series is a strategic decision, not a business one. The games are already sold out.

[Centerfield]

I am way late chiming in here, but it is crazy to me that there is so much attention on these arbitrary limits.

Is there a significant difference between 180 and 200? Are we really differentiating between stressful innings and side sessions? If I am pitching, is my elbow ligament aware of the score?

Seems crazy to me.

My only thought is that any pitcher who declines to take the mound in the post-season because of innings limits will probably never live that down. Ever.

[Edgy MD]

From 1987 to 1989, Tommy LaSorda rode Orel Hershiser to death. He led the league in innings three straight years, and pitched an amazing 42 2/3 post-season innings in 1988, carrying his team to a World Championship. He was never the same again. Maybe his subsequent injury was unrelated to his workload, but it seems pretty self-evident that it cost him the Hall of Fame.

The Mets ain't Tommy LaSorda. They've been trying to manage this all year, no matter what Tom Boswell says. If he gets hurt, it ain't for lack of foresight.

[TransMonk]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't think they need a Harvey start to sell tickets.

Ceetar wrote: Sunday against the Yankees is his day...

Gwreck wrote: Pitching Harvey in that series is a strategic decision, not a business one. The games are already sold out.

I'm not referring to ticket sales. I know the game is sold out. That Sunday game will be on ESPN and I'm guessing will be one of the most watched regular season games of the season by a national audience. There is promotional opportunity there that supersedes that single games' ticket sales.

Given all of the hullabaloo over Harvey's innings recently, I'm not sold that Harvey is specifically necessary to win that game or if winning that game will be meaningful in the long run. If it's between him starting an inter-league game against the Yankees or being able to pitch one extra inning in the post-season, I shut him down every time.

While I personally agree that limiting innings is guesswork at best, it seems obvious that everyone directly involved is promoting some sort of cap...so that's what we are stuck with.

[Edgy MD]

I don't think it's about one extra inning, so much as needing a warmup for general sharpness.

[Ceetar]

huge difference between 840.1 IP over three years and the added stress of say 220 IP instead of 190.

We know pitching leads to injuries. What we don't know is that if say 30 more innings at the end of a season is actually more likely to result in injury than those same 30 innings to start next season.

[TransMonk]

Edgy MD wrote: I don't think it's about one extra inning, so much as needing a warmup for general sharpness.

I can get down with that, but the Yankees series is nearly three weeks away from a potential NLDS game. Wouldn't a warm-up be more prudent during the final week?

I don't know...maybe I'm being too cautious on this, but I have this feeling in the back of my mind that either the Mets, Harvey or Boras is going to fuck this up even more than they already have.

[ashie62]

The bottom line is Matt Harvey needs to pitch better whenever the powers that be put him out there

I'm in with Rubin's speculation on Harvey.

[seawolf17]

Thing is, though... so he gets hurt. He's not even arb-eligible until next year. If he blows his arm out in inning 181, we still have a VERY good 1-5, and he's not a financial drain on next year at all.

A big "what could have been" story, yes, but those happen..

[batmagadanleadoff]

[fimg=222]http://a1.nyt.com/assets/article/20150910-133236/images/foundation/logos/nyt-logo-185x26.svg[/fimg]

Best Move for Matt Harvey: Shield Arm, and Ears

SEPT. 6, 2015
by Michael Powell

Good God, the kid has gone pusillanimous on us. A coward, a phony, a fugazi. As a wealthy 60-something tabloid columnist puts it, Mets pitcher Matt Harvey is quitting on his stool. Please. Harvey has, with sweat and determination, returned from serious elbow surgery and, with minimal batting support, given the Mets a stunning comeback, one gritty, smart start after another. The Mets stumbled in Miami over the weekend, but this season has so far turned out better than we could have imagined. Now Harvey�s agent, Scott Boras, talks in a common-sense fashion of limiting Harvey�s remaining innings because, well, Harvey is in recovery from a very serious elbow procedure. And New Yorkers, as we excel at doing, lose our minds. Tabloid columnists administer a vitriol shower. I dig the angst. I�ve rooted for the Mets since Ron Hunt manned second base and this kid Tom Seaver tricked an 11-year-old into thinking that 1969 magic was baseball as usual. This season has been great fun, and not just because of Harvey. Wilmer Flores has grown into a sweet-hitting second baseman, and Yoenis Cespedes, to date myself thoroughly, has put on a Donn Clendenon show. Travis d�Arnaud has a cobra bite of a swing, and David Wright is back to enjoy it. An insightful and occasionally amusing package of the sports journalism you need today, delivered to your inbox by New York Times reporters and editors. This is no morality play. The Mets have done a fine job of nursing Harvey. Manager Terry Collins, who has had a nervous breakdown of a year � try managing a June game without a backup catcher and a July game in which your third and fourth hitters have batting averages under .200 � has carefully monitored Harvey�s innings. Only once has Harvey exceeded 110 pitches. Credit also goes to General Manager Sandy Alderson. I get why Alderson is annoyed at Boras; no one wants to be accused of not having an employee�s best interests at heart. It�s also true that it is in the Mets� enlightened self-interest to see Harvey take his alpha-dog act deep into October. This has led team executives and coaches � who in spring training spoke of an innings limit of 185 � to talk of pushing Harvey harder and longer, well beyond his career high of 1781/3. Boras, by contrast, is looking out for the enlightened self-interest of his client. As Keith Hernandez has noted, a major league club almost always wants you to recover a little faster and play a little longer. He credited Marvin Miller, the pioneering baseball labor man, with giving players the right to seek second opinions and take some control of their tenuous careers. Over the weekend, Alderson spoke to The Daily News�s Mike Lupica, who functions as the Mets� Boswell (James, not Ken). Alderson said that Harvey was 26 years old and that he should decide how far to push himself. In other words, man up and lose Boras�s cell number. Harvey is an intense competitor, and like 26-year-olds everywhere (I�m a father to two 20-somethings), he thinks of himself as immortal. Last year, Harvey wanted to speed his recovery and pitch in September. Alderson wisely turned deaf to that demand. This season, Harvey bridled at talk of a six-man rotation. On Sunday, he even felt obliged to write an online column for The Players� Tribune titled �I Will Pitch in the Playoffs.� Boras, fortunately for Harvey, is not 26. In mid-August, he and Alderson spoke, and Boras looked into the what-ifs of a playoff run. Two surgeons, he said, told him they were concerned about the innings Harvey was piling up. Harvey said he then talked to his surgeon, Dr. James Andrews, who told him: Be careful. You really should not go over 180 innings. The orthopedic surgeons in the press corps acted as if this were far-fetched. Who sets such limits? This isn�t science: 150 innings, 250 innings, who knows? Sometime in the next few years, I may need Achilles� surgery. My surgeon, who also handles pro athletes, said we would set specific numeric goals, month by month. My recovery will be carefully managed. My goal is to get back to running around Prospect Park at a nice clip. Harvey hopes to thrive as a dominant pitcher in the best baseball league in the world. It�s hard to imagine that his surgeons would not talk of careful limits. My colleague Tyler Kepner talked to Neal ElAttrache, a noted orthopedic surgeon. He noted that it was reasonable to set a 180-inning limit because of the maximum stress to which Harvey�s arm was exposed. �To be fair to Matt,� ElAttrache said, �that number does start to raise some flags, because now he�s in no man�s land.� As Newsday pointed out months ago, the American Journal of Sports Medicine published three studies and found that 80 percent of pitchers who had elbow surgery returned to pitch at least one game. That was the good news. The bad was that only 67 percent returned to anything like their former level of performance. More than half ended up back on the disabled list. Pitchers are like summer swallows: They disappear, and you forget their brilliance. Harvey is often compared to Stephen Strasburg, the young Nationals ace. In 2012, Strasburg was in his first season back from the same operation, and when he reached his innings limit, his team sat him. Washington failed to win a championship that year, and many now talk of that decision as disastrous. That conclusion draws on an empty well of facts. Strasburg, who has had back problems this year, has by and large pitched brilliantly. In 2014, he struck out 242 and walked 43. If the Nationals win this year, or next, they can count themselves lucky to have a healthy Strasburg. �Imagine the future a kid like that would command on the open market,� Collins, the Mets� manager, told Lupica in spring training as they watched Harvey throw. Right now, Harvey�s salary is $614,125. If he stays healthy, he could make $20 million per year someday. If I were Mr. and Mrs. Harvey, I would be very happy that Boras had the enlightened self-interest to look after my son�s health. Email: powellm@nytimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/07/sports/baseball/best-move-for-matt-harvey-shield-arm-and-ears.html?_r=1

[Ceetar]

Wrong on so many levels.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: Wrong on so many levels.

Such as ....?

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: Wrong on so many levels. Such as ....?

I'll tell you what I disagree with. I think that Cespedes is putting on a Babe Ruth show, not a Donn Clendenon show.

[Ceetar]

I was going to start listing them but you already posted the article which is basically the list.

Boras speaks in a common sense fashion: The Mets have managed Harvey's innings fine and had a plan. Boras was well aware of it. him speaking out is passive-aggressive manipulation.

He then inserts the caveat of "They've managed him well so far" and then immediately launches into an unsourced claim that they're going to now push him harder and longer than they planned. Perhaps past his career high. (WELL beyond he says) Is this the plan? doesn't seem like it. Part of that's because he hasn't pitched a full season ever. But that's his job, to pitch a full season. So yes, he may go past his career high. But that's sorta the point.

He quotes, or paraphrases, James Andrews which is an oversimplification.

Then bashes everyone that points out there is no evidence to innings limits in the same breath as claiming we say it's not science. But it is, there's not Scientific Evidence to that 180 number, or any number really.

He then launches into his own almost personal experience of what may or may not happen after an injury he does not have. Like this somehow matters. He also talks about a managed recovery like Harvey isn't well past the recovery stage and more than 2 years removed from surgery. We're not talking about recovery, we're talking about how to avoid a pitcher getting injured, and We. Don't. Know.

then he talks to 'random doctor that has not examined Harvey' to get a quote about 'maximum stress' without any real scientific evidence again. That number closely correlates to his 2013 like the reason he got hurt was because he pitched 178.1 innings and then POP.

When Harvey exceeds that number, it doesn't put him at further risk, it provides evidence that he's healthy.

Obviously you have to mention Strasburg. He does. He insinuates that Steve is healthy now because of the innings cap and them sitting him. When in fact, HE GOT HURT ANYWAY. He's been iffy this year because of injuries, which he waves away and mentions how good he was last year. There is zero evidence that keeping him out of the playoffs did any good because hurt their chances.

[Edgy MD]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Wrong on so many levels. Such as ....? I'll tell you what I disagree with. I think that Cespedes is putting on a Babe Ruth show, not a Donn Clendenon show.

That was definitely one place he went off track: some strangely funky analogies seemingly formulated to make him sound in the know had the opposite effect.

[ashie62]

I believe the Clendenon Cespedes analogy is off.

I'm tired of the Harvey stuff. Its September, Matt is healthy and available to pitch. Booyah!

[Guest d'Kong76]

Ashie62 wrote: I'm tired of the Harvey stuff. Its September, Matt is healthy and available to pitch. Booyah!

Unless he's not available, which is the case until he actually
takes the hill again.