Piazza Retires

[Guest cooby]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: It might be Piazza v. Clemens all over again five years from now. If Clemens never pitches again, they'll both make their HOF ballot debuts together on the same ballot for the Summer of 2013 induction ceremony. Interesting stuff.

Sounds like a CPF field trip

[metirish]

Sounds like a great idea Cooby , I started following the Mets a few years after I came here and certainly Piazza is my favorite Mets player ever , I have a great affinity for those Mets teams , the late 90's team of Piazza , Leiter , Franco , Cook and Wendell and the rest .

I don't really care about retiring his number , I agree that a strict stanard should be enforced and the Mets seem on point with that. A day for Mike at Shea would be great.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I doubt that Clemens will be a first-ballot guy, given his recent misadventures.

He may eventually get in (although I hope not) but I doubt that Piazza will be sharing his day with Clemens. Or with Bonds for that matter.

[Guest themetfairy]

Centerfield wrote: It's certainly clear that Piazza thinks of himself as a Met. If it were up to me, he'd go in as a Met and his number would be retired.

I'll second that thought.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I doubt that Clemens will be a first-ballot guy, given his recent misadventures.... but I doubt that Piazza will be sharing his day with Clemens.

I have a feeling that Piazza and Clemens will be juxtaposed against each other throughout the whole HOF process no matter how Clemens fares.

[Guest AG/DC]

SteveJRogers wrote: ="Willets Point"]I could see 31 being jointly retired for Piazza and Franco. I don't think it would violate the Mets standards to honor two beloved sons that way. I'm not so sure Franco qualifies as a beloved son though. Franco has a lot of Carter in him, but in this case the hype and legend is much greater than the actuality.

Franco has hype and legend? What the heck?

[metirish]

Thursday will be the ten year anniversary since Piazza was traded to the Mets.

[metirish]

Interesting bit in a Mark Hermann Newsday article.

] Piazza won't hibernate or stagnate. He has talked of traveling to Italy. He has hinted about studying to become a deacon in the Catholic Church. We all wish him well. More than that, we wish he were still here.

Hermann's top ten Mets.

1. Tom Seaver

2. Mike Piazza

3. Darryl Strawberry

4. Keith Hernandez

5. Jerry Koosman

6. Dwight Gooden

7. Gary Carter

8. Tug McGraw

9. Edgardo Alfonzo

10. David Wright

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

the sad part of that list is that Gooden and Strawberry could have been Nos. 1 and 2. I'll always see them for what they should have been instead of what they were, which I suppose isn't fair.

Put the number on the wall -- quickly.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

RD - "If I was to retire the number of any player that has worn the Mets uniform, it would be #31 for Mike Piazza."

Nymr - "I assume you mean besides the one that is already retired?"

Certainly, of course. Sorry if I failed to make that point clear. Seaver's #41 is precisely where it should be, I just feel it could use some very select company. I believe Piazza's #31 is the most deserving number to join him.

[MFS62]

Valadius wrote: Many of you grew up with Tom Seaver as your Met hero. Well, I'm the lone poster of the generation that grew up with Mike Piazza as their Met hero.

I grew up with Al Jackson as my Mets hero.
As for Piazza, I tend to agree with many of the things Benjamin Grimm has said in this thread.

Later

[Fman99]

mario25 wrote: Guy hit some serious bombs too..He was a great Met during his time here and an amazing hitter...

He hit the farthest home run I ever saw at Shea. A bomb that he pulled to left center that went towards the pavilion tent area, in this game.

[Guest AG/DC]

I grew up with Doug Flynn as my hero. If they retired his number, I'd be confused and worried.

That said, I wouldn't get upset one way or the other, as long as whatever they did reflected deep and ocnsidered thought with regard to their history, and connecting fans of the future with it, and less regard for kowtowing to to sponsors.

[seawolf17]

AG/DC wrote: I grew up with Doug Flynn as my hero. If they retired his number, I'd be confused and worried. That said, I wouldn't get upset one way or the other, as long as whatever they did reflected deep and ocnsidered thought with regard to their history, and connecting fans of the future with it, and less regard for kowtowing to to sponsors.

So you're saying that retiring 31 for Mike "Papa John's" Piazza sponsored by Banco Popular would be a bad idea. Got it.

[Guest AG/DC]

Baskin Robbins Presents 31.

[soupcan]

metirish wrote: Hermann's top ten Mets. 1. Tom Seaver 2. Mike Piazza 3. Darryl Strawberry 4. Keith Hernandez 5. Jerry Koosman 6. Dwight Gooden 7. Gary Carter 8. Tug McGraw 9. Edgardo Alfonzo 10. David Wright

I think its a little early for Wright to be on this list. Any one of Agee, HoJo, Dykstra, Harrelson, Mookie, Franco maybe could be there instead of him right now.

[Guest AG/DC]

That's not what the Crane Pool says. Gery Carter isn't even close.

[soupcan]

I think Hermann's list is more about symbolic importance as opposed to statistical.

[Guest AG/DC]

No doubt, plus some personal preference, which is fine.

When I grew up, though, there was no greater symbol than the utterly statistical mediocre Ed Kranepool. Every team should have a Kranepool.

Symbolic value can get over-stated (cough! jeter! couh!) though, and we have to be very careful before we enshrine it.

Which isn't to dismiss it at all. I tend to defend the retiremeent of 37, which is all about symbolic value. It's just that winds of consensus on these things can be manipulated, or blow for reasons that later seem silly.

For two weeks last summer, Met fans were falling over each other to acknowledge appreciation for the power of Glavine. I've heard littlle of that of late.

[stevejrogers]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: the sad part of that list is that Gooden and Strawberry could have been Nos. 1 and 2. I'll always see them for what they should have been instead of what they were, which I suppose isn't fair. Put the number on the wall -- quickly.

Amen to that about Doc and Straw.

[Guest Grote15]

The first Met names I recall are Al Luplow and Krane and in 67 Seaver was my Idol...

I don't think I would retire Piazza's number, if nothing else due to respect for guys like Koosman,Kranepool,Clendenon,Cleon,Agee,Staub,Swan,Hojo,Doc,Straw and other players that have made up the totality of the franchise.

I feel like its sort of all or none....No disrespect to Mr. Piazza who is wish well.

On a lighter note a picture a Mike Piazza day with Howie Rose and a bunch of the 2000 guys, introducing "our man of the hour" Mike Piazza and you NEW METS MANAGER BOBBY VALENTINE!!!!!!!!!

[Guest AG/DC]

Paul Lukas logs in on the story, and, wow, I disagree (or find him to be distorting) on pretty much every point.

And I don't really care about the cap.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Wow indeed.

And those first two points look like they could have been written by Bret Sabermetric.

[Gwreck]

Lukas' article:

="Paul Lukas"] Good riddance, Mike Piazza By Paul Lukas Page 2 Now that Mike Piazza has retired, people are already debating whether his Hall of Fame plaque should depict him in a Mets cap or a Dodgers cap. If you look at the numbers, it's no contest -- his greatest years were in L.A. And as a lifelong Mets fan who never warmed up to Piazza, I don't want his enshrinement tied to my team, anyway. Here's why: Put an L.A. cap on him and let's pretend New York never happened. 1. When it became apparent that he'd have to move from catcher to first base, Piazza's behavior ranged from disingenuous to manipulative. A classy player would've stepped up and said, "I'll do anything to help the team -- where do you want me to play?" But Piazza kept playing dumb, tossing out quotes like, "Well, management hasn't said anything to me about it, so I really don't know." Right, the whole city of New York is talking about it but you have no clue. Sure. When skipper Art Howe eventually mentioned to some reporters that Piazza would be taking some infield practice at first base and the reporters then told Piazza, he acted all offended because Howe didn't tell him beforehand. Look, dude, just play where the manager tells you to play and shut up. 2. One reason he didn't want to play first base was that he was obsessed with that stupid record for most home runs hit by a catcher -- a record that exactly one person in town cared about. Can you guess who that one person was? (Hint: Rhymes with "Mike Piazza.") 3. Of course, once Piazza finally played first base, we found out the real reason why he'd been avoiding the issue: The guy's a horrible athlete. Great hitter, yes, but not a good athlete. No coordination, no footwork. And it went way beyond his inability to play first base. I defy anyone to find one instance -- one single instance -- of Mike Piazza properly executing a slide into second or third base. Never happened. Why? Get this: MIKE PIAZZA CAN'T SLIDE. It's true. When he tried to slide, he'd spaz out and trip. Really! 4. When the New York Post implied that Piazza was gay, he held that little press conference where he declared his heterosexuality. OK, fine. But he missed a huge opportunity to say, "But what if it was true? What if I was gay? So what? What if one of my teammates is gay? What if one of YOU is gay? It's no big deal. Listen, I'm straight, but this whole thing is really a nonissue." In a city with a huge gay population, that was an opportunity to show some real community leadership, and he totally spit the bit. 5. A few days after Roger Clemens beaned him in 2000, Piazza said that the incident had made him reassess the DH. "I thought the DH could be a good thing for me later in my career," he said, "but now I see that it's bad for baseball, because the pitcher can throw at the batter with no fear of retaliation." So what did he do after leaving the Mets? He shopped himself to American League teams with hopes of becoming a DH. None of them were interested, so he signed with the Padres, but then he went to the A's, where he happily DH'd. Hypocrite. 6. "The runner goes, here's the throw from Piazza -- and it comes in on two hops." Was Piazza a tremendous offensive player? Yes. Did I sometimes cheer for him? Yes. But he never fulfilled his potential as a star, in the fullest sense of that term. Too bad.

1 might be a valid point but lacks any substantive facts so we can't really know for sure. The line about "tossing out quotes like..." is particularly disingenuous.

2 again, lacking facts.

3 the first half of seems ok. But the sliding thing is a piece of crap. He defies the reader to find "one instance" of Piazza properly executing a slide, but cannot be bothered to find one of Piazza not. C'mon Paul, that's just lazy. If we believe you that there are tons of examples, you could certainly find one for us, right?

4 and 5 are just stupid.

[G-Fafif]

It takes all kinds and everyone's entitled to his or her opinion, but this was atrocious, especially from someone whose work I've long admired. The bit about the DH is particularly absurd. Lukas' piece reads like a parody of somebody who would strain to find Bad Stuff 'Bout Piazza.

Richard Grossinger affected the same tone in assessing Piazza in his bitchy, too-precious, frustrating and ultimately unsatisfying The New York Mets: Ethnography, Myth and Subtext (you would think with a title like that it couldn't miss):

]Mike Piazza, the epitome of the millennial New York Mets, a huge numbers and power guy around whom nothing ever jelled; a bogus catcher (he needed a position), he couldn't throw out base runners if his life depended on it... he was a hard guy to see past, sucking all the energy without converting that charisma into championship-level leadership... yes, Piazza was good, but he wasn't a difference-maker; he was more noise and hoopla than clutch or bottom line.

Like I said, it takes all kinds.

[stevejrogers]

]Now that Mike Piazza has retired, people are already debating whether his Hall of Fame plaque should depict him in a Mets cap or a Dodgers cap. If you look at the numbers, it's no contest -- his greatest years were in L.A. And as a lifelong Mets fan who never warmed up to Piazza,

No need to read further. Already he is admiting a bias against Piazza, the rest is just semantics. But unlike Delgado, or even Gary Carter, Piazza still gave the Mets very solid years for a guy in decline.

]1. When it became apparent that he'd have to move from catcher to first base, Piazza's behavior ranged from disingenuous to manipulative. A classy player would've stepped up and said, "I'll do anything to help the team -- where do you want me to play?" But Piazza kept playing dumb, tossing out quotes like, "Well, management hasn't said anything to me about it, so I really don't know." Right, the whole city of New York is talking about it but you have no clue. Sure. When skipper Art Howe eventually mentioned to some reporters that Piazza would be taking some infield practice at first base and the reporters then told Piazza, he acted all offended because Howe didn't tell him beforehand. Look, dude, just play where the manager tells you to play and shut up.

Show me where Piazza said that.

A good journalist should be able to back up their use of quotations and actions. And since when does any player/manager/GM/owner actually come out and respond to media and radio caller SPECULATION if it hasn't actually been talked about amongst themselves. Did Lukas learn editorial writing from Wally Matthews?

]2. One reason he didn't want to play first base was that he was obsessed with that stupid record for most home runs hit by a catcher -- a record that exactly one person in town cared about. Can you guess who that one person was? (Hint: Rhymes with "Mike Piazza.")

But was it really hurting the team though?

1) Was there a Todd Hundley type that Piazza was holding back by still catching (and no, Phillips doesn't count)

2) You didn't know it at the time, but Piazza made Jason Giambi of 2008 look like Keith Hernandez out there!

]3. Of course, once Piazza finally played first base, we found out the real reason why he'd been avoiding the issue: The guy's a horrible athlete. Great hitter, yes, but not a good athlete. No coordination, no footwork. And it went way beyond his inability to play first base. I defy anyone to find one instance -- one single instance -- of Mike Piazza properly executing a slide into second or third base. Never happened. Why? Get this: MIKE PIAZZA CAN'T SLIDE. It's true. When he tried to slide, he'd spaz out and trip. Really!

Very, very picky there. Al Leiter was embarrassing as a hitter, but when Leiter was on, did you NOT want Leiter on that mound because he'd embarrass himself at the plate several times that night?

]4. When the New York Post implied that Piazza was gay, he held that little press conference where he declared his heterosexuality. OK, fine. But he missed a huge opportunity to say, "But what if it was true? What if I was gay? So what? What if one of my teammates is gay? What if one of YOU is gay? It's no big deal. Listen, I'm straight, but this whole thing is really a nonissue." In a city with a huge gay population, that was an opportunity to show some real community leadership, and he totally spit the bit.

And there are Met fans who find fault with Delgado because of his stance against the US using his country as target practice. But if Delgado produced like Piazza, I'm sure those fans would begrude his status as major contributor without using it as a reason why he should not be remembered fondly as a Met.

]5. A few days after Roger Clemens beaned him in 2000, Piazza said that the incident had made him reassess the DH. "I thought the DH could be a good thing for me later in my career," he said, "but now I see that it's bad for baseball, because the pitcher can throw at the batter with no fear of retaliation." So what did he do after leaving the Mets? He shopped himself to American League teams with hopes of becoming a DH. None of them were interested, so he signed with the Padres, but then he went to the A's, where he happily DH'd. Hypocrite.

Not the first, or last time someone, let alone a baseball player, made a declaritive comment after a real bad situation, then went back on his word, but again, show me where he said that.

]6. "The runner goes, here's the throw from Piazza -- and it comes in on two hops."

Which really is the most overrated thing about catching. Please, to say nothing about how overrated the stolen base is in general.

Did opponents run more on Piazza than other teams? Well maybe, but you'd better back that one up with some stats along the lines of it costing the Mets wins and such.

]Was Piazza a tremendous offensive player? Yes. Did I sometimes cheer for him? Yes. But he never fulfilled his potential as a star, in the fullest sense of that term. Too bad.

Never fulfilled his potential as a star huh? Or is it that he never fulfilled his potential to win a championship? That probably is what Lukas means. Piazza was more Pattrick Ewing than a Darryl Strawberry in this regard.

[nymr83]

]5. A few days after Roger Clemens beaned him in 2000, Piazza said that the incident had made him reassess the DH. "I thought the DH could be a good thing for me later in my career," he said, "but now I see that it's bad for baseball, because the pitcher can throw at the batter with no fear of retaliation." So what did he do after leaving the Mets? He shopped himself to American League teams with hopes of becoming a DH. None of them were interested, so he signed with the Padres, but then he went to the A's, where he happily DH'd. Hypocrite. Not the first, or last time someone, let alone a baseball player, made a declaritive comment after a real bad situation, then went back on his word, but again, as Bill would say, show me where he said that.

i don't think that make him a hypocrit at all. he thinks its bad for the game, but that doesnt mean its bad for him and he'll take advantage of it as long as it exists.

[Guest AG/DC]

A properly executed Piazza slide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWj9FLYl3zA

Eat it.

[Guest themetfairy]

J-FAFIF wrote a nice piece about Piazza here.

[metirish]

Harsh from Lukas and what's with the standing up for gay new yorkers angle , he seems especially upset over that , weird.