Mets to Retire 16, 18 (merged with Oh Holy Hell, Retire #7 NOW!!!)

[Edgy MD]

It largely hearkens back to the role of "manager" evolving from the "captain" role. Captains were frequently player/managers like Frank Chance whose managing career began while they were playing regularly, and their eventual retirement came softly, when folks realized a guy hadn't put himself into the lineup in a few weeks. Maybe he was still available to pinch-hit, and maybe he did on occasion.



But when he eventually didn't, by the start of the next season, he was understood to be retired, but as his role was only gradually changing, there was no moment that presented a particular impetus to change the clothes.



Plus, he was still taking the field before games, to throw batting practice and hit fungoes and play Pepper and shit. The uniform was considered to be athletic wear, and there was no other generic athletic wear as there is now. Grey sweats were sort of a thing, but not really dignified outside of the gym. He was still sorta/kinda an athlete, and so the duds persisted.



What's just as interesting as the uniform persisting as those factors grew less prominent is Connie Mack breaking with tradition all those years, and others not following him.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I think I read that the Dodgers had a manager who wore a suit. Maybe it was Burt Shotton when he replaced the suspended Leo Durocher?

[batmagadanleadoff]

=smg58 post_id=135890 time=1692973733 user_id=62]
In terms of WAR as a Met (going by Baseball Reference), Gooden is second among pitchers and Strawberry is second among hitters. And they contributed to a world champion. They're both quite a bit higher than Carter or Hernandez, and Piazza as well. So you can disagree on where the line should be drawn, but I would argue the line has already been drawn below them.

[kcmets]

Edgy MD wrote: =kcmets post_id=135903 time=1692978417 user_id=53] Why was the Krane thread merged with the Doc/Straw thread?

Dunno. I hadn't noticed until now.

[nymr83]

There is nothing nice about wearing a suit in 100 degree summer heat. Basketball and Hockey coaches do their jobs in air conditioned arenas.

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

I'd wager there's a considerable batch of fans who don't even remember what number Alfonzo wore.

[Frayed Knot]

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I'd wager there's a considerable batch of fans who don't even remember what number Alfonzo wore.

I'm one of them.



OTOH, I also couldn't give you the numbers of most of the current squad so probably best not to make too much out of my (lack of) knowledge.

[Bob Alpacadaca]

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I'd wager there's a considerable batch of fans who don't even remember what number Alfonzo wore.

I have a really cool reference book called “Mets by the Numbers” that tells me that!

[Johnny Lunchbucket]

I'm just saying, some guys are more connected to their number than others. Keith was very 17. Wright is no. 5. No doubt.



I think that matters when it comes to retirement

[kcmets]

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I'd wager there's a considerable batch of fans who don't even remember what number Alfonzo wore.

I don't know if this makes sense to people but I'm better with

the numbers of guys no longer playing. If you walked up to me

with a twenty dollar bill on Fifth Ave and asked me what number

Edgardo wore you'd be out a twenty. But I'd buy you a beer so

you'd only be out a ten. If you asked me what number Pete Alonso

wears, there's a 50-50 chance I'd get it wrong

[whippoorwill]

13?

[Frayed Knot]

I would have guessed 13 also, and it turns out that is correct.

When dealing with a Venezualan infielder, 13 is always a strong guess.

[roger_that]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I think I read that the Dodgers had a manager who wore a suit. Maybe it was Burt Shotton when he replaced the suspended Leo Durocher?

Yes. Kindly Old Burt Shotton had promised his wife (so the story goes) that he'd never wear a baseball uniform again, so when he accepted the Dodgers' offer to manage, he refused to wear a uni, as if that were actually keeping his promise.

[Edgy MD]

Another fun thing about coaches and managers wearing uniforms is that, on rare occasions, they would take the field in the late innings of blowout games.



https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/eversjo01.shtmlJohnny Evers retired at 35 but he got into one game at 40 and another at 47.

[Gwreck]

Frayed Knot wrote: I don't want a set of rigid rules governing number retirement. But I'd like there to be some sort of guidelines and mine would look something like this: 1) a career NYM or at least a solid majority of his career as one 2) HoF inductee or at least pretty darn close to it 3) Was a member/citizen of good standing while a NYM … - Mookie, HoJo, Krane, Beltran, Cleon, etc.: Please stop

You might need to recheck your criteria on Beltran. Take another look at those numbers:



#1: a little short, but he ranks much higher than you think as a Met. Better Mets career than Piazza, certainly.



#2: yes



#3: yes



I'm not sure I'd retire Beltran's number either but he's a very close call.

[Edgy MD]

There are plenty of fans I run into online who deny from their heads to their toes that Beltran ever particularly earned member-in-good-standing status.



Virtually none of them have a point, but they have voices that can be awful loud.

[Frayed Knot]

answering GWreck here





Yes, Beltran is better than those I lumped him with, I was pretty much throwing out names I've heard thrown out here (Ceetar was a big 'Retire Beltran Yesterday!' proponent) and elsewhere.



I wouldn't retire Beltran but I wouldn't have done Piazza either and this is certainly part of what gets opened up once they went the Piazza route where it's decided that the NYM HoF isn't enough for <50% NYM careers who are better known, or at least AS well known, for what they did elsewhere, Not as bad as five-season Reggie in the Bronx but at least he is HoF.



The overall issue for me is that Cohen has obviously decided that more retired numbers = better so rather than keep it for elite status only he's back-filling with fan favorites who had a handful of elite (or even just very good) seasons with the team while also continuing the mothballing of others (5, 7, 8, 48) for future use.

When this new one(s) every year pace is through will the stadium be big enough to hold them all?

[batmagadanleadoff]

This criteria that a player ought to be in Cooperstown to have his number retired by a team never resonated with me. In my fantasy world where I own the Mets and get to pick and choose and decide which Mets get to have their uniform numbers retired, if any, I don't think I'd ever consider that as a factor.



Simply put, a player is or isn't enshrined in Cooperstown based on his baseball accomplishments over his entire baseball career. Why would I care about what he did with teams other than the Mets when deciding whether or not to retire his Mets uniform number?

[Frayed Knot]

Saying HoF status, 'or something close to it', is merely meant to say that I want an elite level player rather than merely a good one

before deciding that no one else can ever soil that uniform #.

I'd have less problem with Keith or Beltran, even though less than HoF, had they also not been short of 45% of PAs as a Met (Keith)

or 35% (Carlos) and won their MVPs and performed WS heroics elsewhere, while Carter's actual HoF inclusion isn't enough to make

up for his barely 25% of time as a Met.

These are guidelines, not absolutes. But it also means that longtime Mets -- Kooz, Grote, Mookie, Krane, Reyes, etc. -- sometimes

touted here and elsewhere wouldn't be on my list either because of their lack of elite status..

[whippoorwill]

I've never understood retiring numbers.



There should be a way to honor players (ok Hall of Fame is good) without taking numbers out of circulation.



Pictures on corridors, statues, what have you.

[roger_that]

=whippoorwill post_id=136012 time=1693091709 user_id=79]
I've never understood retiring numbers.



There should be a way to honor players (ok Hall of Fame is good) without taking numbers out of circulation.



Pictures on corridors, statues, what have you.

[Frayed Knot]

It's the idea that some players are so special to a particular team -- or, in the case of Jackie, to MLB itself -- that the team decides

that his number should be associated with only him after he retires. It's a nice honor but it should be rare (IMO of course).

But what's happened, in recent years especially, is that teams have opted for the 'more is better' philosophy driven, at least to some

degree, by a desire not to have fewer numbers on your wall than other teams have on theirs.

There should be a way to honor players (ok Hall of Fame is good) without taking numbers out of circulation.

Exactly. The team HoF (Ring of Honor, whatever) is there to honor past stars. By plucking those from the team HoF roster,

particularly when it's for the sole purpose of beefing up the slate of retired numbers, you wind up cheapening both.

[Edgy MD]

There are indeed hundreds (perhaps more) of ways to honor a player without taking his number out of circulation, but it seems that marketing has come down to we all have to do it the way others do it.



Won't you join me in advocating for novel, original honors to be undertaken by the Mets in honoring their players?



Let me add that honoring a player by building a statue of his number is numbskulled nine ways to Sunday.

[Fman99]

Edgy MD wrote: Let me add that honoring a player by building a statue of his number is numbskulled nine ways to Sunday.

A thought I have each time I enter Citi Field via the rotunda.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Anthony DiComo wrote: The Mets' announcement that they plan to retire the numbers of Dwight Gooden and Darryl Strawberry in separate ceremonies next summer came with the customary follow-up: What's next? Back in 2020, when the Mets announced that they would retire Jerry Koosman's No. 36, I wrote this piece outlining which other numbers the team might consider setting aside. At this point, everyone on the list has either already had the honor or will have it soon, with the exceptions of David Wright and Gary Carter. First, it's worth addressing Carter, who was inducted into the Mets Hall of Fame in 2001. Although no one can deny Carter's impact as a player and leader on the 1980s teams, he spent just five years with the franchise and appeared in merely 600 games. That's a notably lighter body of work than Strawberry or Keith Hernandez, who also spent less than half their careers in Queens. As such, it would not be surprising to see the Mets pass over Carter for the organization's highest honor. That leaves Wright, who retired after the 2018 season and is not yet in the Mets Hall of Fame. Since 2021, the Mets have held Hall of Fame ceremonies and number retirements in alternate years, making 2025 a likely Hall induction summer. Might the Mets put Wright and others into the team Hall of Fame at that time, as a prelude to an eventual Wright number retirement? Or would they break recent tradition and hold both ceremonies for Wright on a single day? Those answers should become clearer over the next year or so. It's obvious that Wright will have his No. 5 retired at Citi Field eventually. The only question is when. Beyond that, the Mets are probably done retiring numbers for the time being. Next up is anyone's guess. Jacob deGrom complicated his candidacy by moving to Texas, and others, such as Francisco Lindor, are a long way from such considerations, with plenty of work left ahead of them.

[stevejrogers]

Dates have been announced



Dwight Gooden #16 April 14th Sunday vs the Royals



Darryl Strawberry #18 June 1st Saturday vs the Diamondbacks

[MFS62]

=stevejrogers post_id=145273 time=1705518074 user_id=57]
Dates have been announced



Dwight Gooden #16 April 14th Sunday vs the Royals



Darryl Strawberry #18 June 1st Saturday vs the Diamondbacks

[The Hot Corner]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: =Gwreck post_id=135814 time=1692898755 user_id=56] Retiring so many numbers dilutes the significance. The Mets' Hall of Fame is for Doc and Darryl and Koosman. Retired numbers should be strictly limited to individuals who make the Baseball Hall of Fame as a Met. You could maybe make an exception for a beloved player who played an entire career with the team.

I agree with this. I'd make the exception for David Wright.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Some absurd reader comments from The Athletic piece on the Mets retiring Doc and Darryl's uni numbers:

William C. 3h 24m ago This is awful that Gary Carter has not been honored yet.

Carl C. 3h 25m ago Can someone please explain to me why Doc's and Darryl's numbers are being retired, but still no Kid? The Mets should be ashamed of themselves!

https://theathletic.com/5209082/2024/01/17/mets-dwight-gooden-darryl-strawberry-jersey-retirements/https://theathletic.com/5209082/2024/01/17/mets-dwight-gooden-darryl-strawberry-jersey-retirements/

[metirish]