IGT 10/9 Pads @ Mets WC Gm 3: Go Time

[ashie62]

It was a great ride that ended so so early

[Frayed Knot]

So other than getting thoroughly out-played in games 1 & 3 [13 - 1], it was a pretty good series.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Guest

[ashie62]

The Phillies move on, ouch

[bmfc1]

=ashie62 post_id=110982 time=1665368144 user_id=90]
The Phillies move on, ouch

[metsmarathon]

Despite the fact that I now hate them, the Padres will be the team I root for out of the NL.



There's really no other choice.

[Frayed Knot]

The Phillies move on, ouch One more win and this wouldn't have happened and the Mets would be playing PHI who they dominated.

Which is why 17 - 13 during the "easy" part of the schedule (not to mention losing 6 of our last 7 to the Braves) was such a killer.

[Edgy MD]

It's too bad. The Mets had them where they wanted 'em.

[Willets Point]

Disappointing finish, but this feels like 1985 to me, winning a shitton of games but not enough to win the division, and a sad finish. Hopefully will lead to a dominating 2023.

[whippoorwill]

Fun to have you guys to share it with!

[bmfc1]

[stevejrogers]

=metsmarathon post_id=110984 time=1665368583 user_id=83]
Despite the fact that I now hate them, the Padres will be the team I root for out of the NL.



There's really no other choice.

[roger_that]

Probably a coincidence, but I haven't had a drink in 63 days, and I just cracked the seal on a fifth of Jack Daniels. Gonna be a long winter.

[nymr83]

=roger_that post_id=110994 time=1665371855 user_id=128]
Probably a coincidence, but I haven't had a drink in 63 days, and I just cracked the seal on a fifth of Jack Daniels. Gonna be a long winter.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I dunno. I think this Winter is gonna be just as long or as short as every other that preceded it. Playoff baseball is a crapshoot. You might as well throw darts at your wall blindfolded to try and figure out who's gonna win any single series. The Dodgers are the undisputed best team in baseball over the last 10 years and its not close. They sign top tier MVP caliber free agents. They trade for top tier MVP caliber players. They've been developing the best players in baseball over the last 10 years. And they have no holes in their starting lineup. No James McCanns. They're a powerhouse. And they have one World Series crown to show for all of that. Just one. And in a 60 game Covid shortened season, no less. Just one World Series title. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's supposed to go like that. Because playoff baseball blah blah blah short series' between good teams blah blah yada and all that luck that pollutes baseball yada yada blah. It's a game of a lotta luck where the differences between two teams 10 games apart in the standings is way tinier than most people think. If less teams made the playoffs, I'm certain that the Dodgers would have several more titles. The only thing that I think the Dodgers should be favored to do this Fall is to not win the 2022 World Series. And it's not because they're not baseball's best team. They are. Easily.



The Mets were tremendous this year. They won 101 games -- and with deGrom and Scherzer combined, missing close to an entire season -- and getting the kid glove hothouse flower treatment for a good chunk of their active stretches. That's how you measure a team -- by the 162 game regular season. Playoffs are just a spectacle. The regular season is William Shakespeare and the playoffs are Archie comics. It's a gimmick.

[roger_that]

You'd be singing --well, warbling off-key and forgetting most of the lyrics--a different song if the Mets had won the World Series this year. Then it would be all "It's the playoff system that really tests your mettle," and blah blah blah. It never ceases to amaze me how you can rationalize any weak bullshit and come to the conclusion "We actually did very well this year" whatever the facts tell you.



The fact is the 101-win season didn't mean a damned thing--it didn't mean the Mets were dominant, it didn't mean their pitching was their secret advantage over the rest of the league, it didn't mean they were a well-run organization, and it certainly didn't mean that Cohen's wallet would get them the players they needed when they needed them.



If character meant anything, they would have found a way to eke out a single win during the nail-in-the-coffin Atlanta series, one win that would have made all the difference now, and if they had pulled out a single win when they needed one so desparately, i'm sure you would be citing that win as a sure sign of the character of this fabulous team. What does that one win's absence tell you? Not a lack of character, that's for sure, which tells me that your way of evaluating character is deeply, deeply flawed.



If you object to the term "character," fine. I'm probably with you on that, but this team lacked something in the end. And whatever else you want to call that lack, you can't just call it "luck" and skip off on your merry way.



We're going to see a whole new version of the Mets next year, but I will guarantee you two things: 1) they will have the highest payroll in all of baseball (again) and 2) you will do anything to ignore fundamental ways in which that team is mis-run.

[Lefty Specialist]

Well, this team underperformed in the clutch. Yeah, I know that's pretty obvious. But they never quite jelled the way they were supposed to. The players had good seasons, but seemingly not at the same time. Alonso and Lindor had ice-cold stretches. Escobar took the first five months off. The catchers never did anything to speak of offensively.



Hard to believe a 101-win team could underperform. Everybody who talks about 'Wow, the Mets have the two best starters ever' needs to shut up. DeGrom was NOT the deGrom we've known in the past. There were flashes, but he seems to be a 5 inning-pitcher who gets hurt a lot and takes a long time to recover. Scherzer seems to have taken a step back, too, which is inevitable at his age. Carrasco was the scariest 15-game winner I ever saw. Bassitt, as we saw, pitches fine when the season is NOT on the line. His last two starts were Archie Bells. At least Walker was relatively consistent.





This team will require a lot more money to be held together, and I don't think it should be. They're going to have some tough decisions to make. Fortunately they've got a lot of time between now and the end of the World Series to think about them.

[kcmets]

Any of that Jack left, roger_that?



[media=youtube]_KClpLzFftU[/media]

[Ceetar]

The Mets were tremendous this year. They won 101 games -- and with deGrom and Scherzer combined, missing close to an entire season -- and getting the kid glove hothouse flower treatment for a good chunk of their active stretches. That's how you measure a team -- by the 162 game regular season. Playoffs are just a spectacle. The regular season is William Shakespeare and the playoffs are Archie comics. It's a gimmick.

The Mets were favored to win this year. that's in part because projections systems underrate the Braves, particularly their rookies, because there's no major league data on them. So when they preform better than even reasonable hope, it makes the Braves better than projected. But that's a nod to the Braves system and a knock to the Mets one, who couldn't get Vientos, Baty or Álvarez up here to contribute even when they needed offense at those positions. This is a failure both of the dev system, and of the leadership that makes these decisions.



They also didn't truly address their holes at the deadline, making marginal bet around the edges, which mostly felt like shoring up a deep playoff roster...except the Mets didn't have a deep playoff roster, so their "this is a really good platoon guy, and gives us flexibility!" additions get overused, and they struggled.



So favored, again, and they lost the division, again. The goal of the regular season is to win the division. They failed, miserably. Having multiple chances to do it, even going back to May 4th, when they got drummed in the final of 4 with Atlanta to split that series. They were 6 back instead of 8 after that win. Those early wins matter too. If they'd won the regular season and lost in 3 to the Dodgers, you'd be pissed, but it would've been a successful season. This year? this was a failure.



And now there are a lot of moving parts for next year, and there's been no indication that this team has the personnel or willingness to expand the budget to piece this together. Not only do you need to spend a ton of money, you need to spend it in the right places. You can't just give Aaron Judge a billion dollars and pretend that fixes the offense.

[The Hot Corner]

Did I want the Mets to win and move on to play the Dodgers? Hell, yes. Did I think they would beat the Padres? I certainly hoped so, but I wouldn't have bet on it.



In reality, I believe the Padres were a tough draw (obviously) for the Mets. Yu Darvish practically owned them this season (and his career). Joe Musgrove was very possibly the best pitcher in MLB the final 2-3 weeks of the season and he continued his dominant streak last night. The Padres won the season series against the Met 4-2, so this should not be the most shocking result.



The Mets were a consistently good team throughout the year. Unfortunately, they came up short down the stretch, particularly in the crucial Atlanta series. Then again in playoffs against the Padres. I enjoyed watching them this season and though I was disappointed that they bowed out of the post-season so soon, I appreciate all that they accomplished in 2022. I realize that no team is assured victory, no matter how badly we fans desire it.

[ashie62]

Well said

[roger_that]

The Mets were tremendous this year. They won 101 games -- and with deGrom and Scherzer combined, missing close to an entire season -- and getting the kid glove hothouse flower treatment for a good chunk of their active stretches. That's how you measure a team -- by the 162 game regular season. Playoffs are just a spectacle. The regular season is William Shakespeare and the playoffs are Archie comics. It's a gimmick. The Mets were favored to win this year. that's in part because projections systems underrate the Braves, particularly their rookies, because there's no major league data on them. So when they preform better than even reasonable hope, it makes the Braves better than projected. But that's a nod to the Braves system and a knock to the Mets one, who couldn't get Vientos, Baty or Álvarez up here to contribute even when they needed offense at those positions. This is a failure both of the dev system, and of the leadership that makes these decisions. They also didn't truly address their holes at the deadline, making marginal bet around the edges, which mostly felt like shoring up a deep playoff roster...except the Mets didn't have a deep playoff roster, so their "this is a really good platoon guy, and gives us flexibility!" additions get overused, and they struggled. So favored, again, and they lost the division, again. The goal of the regular season is to win the division. They failed, miserably. Having multiple chances to do it, even going back to May 4th, when they got drummed in the final of 4 with Atlanta to split that series. They were 6 back instead of 8 after that win. Those early wins matter too. If they'd won the regular season and lost in 3 to the Dodgers, you'd be pissed, but it would've been a successful season. This year? this was a failure. And now there are a lot of moving parts for next year, and there's been no indication that this team has the personnel or willingness to expand the budget to piece this together. Not only do you need to spend a ton of money, you need to spend it in the right places. You can't just give Aaron Judge a billion dollars and pretend that fixes the offense.

Spot-on analysis.

[Gwreck]

There's plenty correct and plenty of hyperbole in that analysis.

projections systems underrate the Braves, particularly their rookies, because there's no major league data on them. So when they preform better than even reasonable hope, it makes the Braves better than projected. But that's a nod to the Braves system and a knock to the Mets one, who couldn't get Vientos, Baty or Álvarez up here to contribute even when they needed offense at those positions. This is a failure both of the dev system, and of the leadership that makes these decisions.

Yes, the Mets failed to get their prospects up to the majors in sufficient time to see what they had to offer, let them adjust, and so forth. 100% correct.



But, as also acknowledged here, the Braves' additions (eg. Harris and Strider) performed “better than even reasonable hope.” How do you counter that? Sometimes the other guy does get more lucky than you.



Hence the obvious inconsistency in the argument. It would be foolish for the Mets to need “better than reasonable hope” from prospects to best the Braves. And, Baty was playing regularly before he got injured. That injury can be chalked up to bad luck.

They also didn't truly address their holes at the deadline, making marginal bet around the edges, which mostly felt like shoring up a deep playoff roster...except the Mets didn't have a deep playoff roster, so their "this is a really good platoon guy, and gives us flexibility!" additions get overused, and they struggled.

Agree again, that the trade deadline moves were insufficient. The team's lack of offensive depth was absolutely exposed, particularly after the Marte injury.



Of course, it was well-documented that better players at the trade deadline required parting with better prospects. I wouldn't have been as hesitant to trade prospects as the Mets were, but realistically prospects were only going to if help this year if there were (1) in the majors or (2) available for trade. The Mets did neither, but prospect help can't be “double-counted” in the analysis.

So favored, again, and they lost the division, again. The goal of the regular season is to win the division. They failed, miserably.

Here's where you lose me with the hyperbole. 101 wins gets you the division almost every single time.. And they lost the division by a game.



2021 being a miserable failure? Ok, fine. No argument. 2022? That's quite the misrepresentation.

And now there are a lot of moving parts for next year, and there's been no indication that this team has the personnel or willingness to expand the budget to piece this together.

There's plenty of reasons to have a healthy suspicion of how effective or good it is to have Steve Cohen as owner, but all evidence indicates plenty of willingness to “expand the budget.” To suggest there is “no indication” of such willingness ignores reality.

Not only do you need to spend a ton of money, you need to spend it in the right places. You can't just give Aaron Judge a billion dollars and pretend that fixes the offense.

Yes adding Aaron Judge would indeed fix most of the Mets' offensive woes. If he played for the Mets and provided half of his 2022 production, that's certainly the difference between winning and losing the division. No need to pretend otherwise.



—-



Of course, I doubt anyone seriously thinks the Mets will add Aaron Judge. We agree they do need to upgrade at DH (easily accomplished via the FA market) and catcher (eg. using Alvarez as a starter), while also retaining Nimmo.

[batmagadanleadoff]

You'd be singing --well, warbling off-key and forgetting most of the lyrics--a different song if the Mets had won the World Series this year. Then it would be all "It's the playoff system that really tests your mettle," and blah blah blah. It never ceases to amaze me how you can rationalize any weak bullshit and come to the conclusion "We actually did very well this year" whatever the facts tell you.

You're here 10 minutes and you act as if you know me all your life. I've been minimizing baseball's post-season probably since I was a teen-ager. And back then, only four teams made the playoffs. It's a luck fest. It means crap other than to provide the sport and the season the badly needed closure that its players and fans must have. It's a spectacle and it's fun but it means very little in assessing which of the participating teams is the best of all. Seven playoff games or 15 playoff games doesn't carry more weight, not even remotely, than the 162 games that comprises the regular season. And this opinion of mine wouldn't change even if the Mets were to win the World Series this year. I still tell people that the 1969 Orioles were a better team than the 1969 Mets and if those two teams played each other 100 times, the Orioles would have easlily won the majority of the games played between the two teams. The Mets winning the 1969 WS and the '69 Orioles being the better team aren't inconsistent or irreconcilable outcomes. But let the pundits and the experts over-analyze playoff games the same way you attach so much weight to Alonso's throwaway comment about having fun. I'm sure Alonso gave that "fun" comment as much thought and reflection as one of his farts in the shower or him picking up a napkin to kill a spider that wandered into his kitchen. Who's the nutjob?



What? The Mets are supposed to go undefeated in the playoffs? Win every game by sheer will? Win every game just because they want to? Or because you want them to? If they could do that, they would've gone 162-0 in the regular season. You have ridiculous expectations, and from a sport that's polluted with luck, way more so than any other of the major team sports games. Baseball is an extremely flawed game, no matter what the poets wax about how great the game is and the sheer bullshit about how bases that are 90 feet apart is supposed to be some standard of perfection.

The fact is the 101-win season didn't mean a damned thing--it didn't mean the Mets were dominant, it didn't mean their pitching was their secret advantage over the rest of the league, it didn't mean they were a well-run organization, and it certainly didn't mean that Cohen's wallet would get them the players they needed when they needed them.

If your'e making a statement here, that's your right. But if you're claiming that I said the Mets were well run or that they had all of the players they needed, well then find that quote. You won't because I never said anything like that. I said that the Mets had one of baseball's best teams this season. If you disagree, show us how they didn't have one of baseball's best teams.

If character meant anything, they would have found a way to eke out a single win during the nail-in-the-coffin Atlanta series, one win that would have made all the difference now, and if they had pulled out a single win when they needed one so desparately, i'm sure you would be citing that win as a sure sign of the character of this fabulous team. What does that one win's absence tell you? Not a lack of character, that's for sure, which tells me that your way of evaluating character is deeply, deeply flawed.

More straw man crap. I don't believe in baseball character and I loathe, despise the way playoff baseball always come down to "character" in the reporting.

If you object to the term "character," fine. I'm probably with you on that, but this team lacked something in the end. And whatever else you want to call that lack, you can't just call it "luck" and skip off on your merry way.

Oh OK. So character in baseball is a myth. But I should believe in it anyways. And then suffer your straw man attacks because I don't believe in baseball character. Or because I do believe in baseball character. Talk about having it both ways.

We're going to see a whole new version of the Mets next year, but I will guarantee you two things: 1) they will have the highest payroll in all of baseball (again) and 2) you will do anything to ignore fundamental ways in which that team is mis-run.

Yeah sure, whatever. The team is mis-run because Pete Alonso said that the playoffs are fun. And then you invent a lot of shit that you pull out of your asshole to challenge my posts and general understanding of baseball. And now you're so distraught that you come off like you should be calling the suicide hotline because Alonso is happy to be in the playoffs, his first ever, even after the Mets lost the opener to the Padres.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Guest

[roger_that]

On one level, a binary decision to acquire serious DH and/or C upgrades at the trading deadline can now be evaluated. They decided No, we've got this in hand with what we have, approximately, and we can now see that as a decision to take aim your own foot and fire away.



Second guessing? No, I think there were a lot of voices crying out at the time that were all shouted down by the "We've got this in this bag" crowd.



You can file that under "bad luck" if you want to badly enough, but I don't think that's even close to a correct analysis. You could also file it under "shit happens" or "baseball is supposed to be fun" or "get a life," too, but I prefer to take hard looks at what went wrong when things go wrong.



Things went horribly wrong.

[Ceetar]

you're misreading me. I'm not saying the Mets need "better than reasonable hope" from their prospects. I'm saying Atlanta has a more complete talented player dev system, and a more consistent plan of promotion. Yes, they ended up doing even better than that, even faster. But they put them in positions to succeed, and the Mets promotions seemed like reactions to twitter pressure, desperate ,and could be argued put them in a position to fail.



I'm not saying Cohen is unwilling to expand the budget, i'm saying he's unwilling to expand it to compensate for the MANY players that are now free agents. He's said stuff about the budget not being unlimited ,which means it exists, which means decisions have to be made. And they've botched some of these decisions in the past, from draft to trade deadline to offseason. There is no indication that this team is up to the task. I hope so, but I don't think any of them have the track record to say "I trust Billy Eppler implicitly to put the best options in place"



Obviously Judge would help. If he's healthy, if the Mets have secondary options if he's not, if the entire roster is filled out beyond him and they're not just like "well, if he gets hurt we'll hope Vientos is fine". There's a lot of moving pieces that are subtracting from the season, never mind season to season variability. Just adding Judge would unlikely be enough as the only significant move this offseason.



sure, saying this was _miserably_ is hyperbole (but it's not for last year). maybe _repeatedly_ is a better adjective. There were multiple things they botched this season. Essentially they won 101 but they distributed them about as poorly as you could. They won 101 but were 10-12 against the teams that decided their fate. They did a lot of things wrong, and I would like to see them correct those things, I just don't have the confidence in this team that they are up to it.

[batmagadanleadoff]

=roger_that post_id=111011 time=1665416626 user_id=128]
=Ceetar post_id=111001 time=1665406823 user_id=102]


You can't just give Aaron Judge a billion dollars and pretend that fixes the offense.

[Ceetar]

I only mention Judge because I feel like this admin has had a certain attraction to the big name, the trendy guy, and he's certainly that. And i'm talking about next year, not this one.

[batmagadanleadoff]

You can't just give Aaron Judge a billion dollars and pretend that fixes the offense. Spot-on analysis. Really? I'm certain that the Mets having Aaron Judge on their team this year would've upgraded the Mets offense tremendously. Any contrary opinion is just crazy talk.

But this from a guy who last Spring wrote that Showalter was a bad choice to manage the Mets because he had "Yankee taint". What are you, eight years old?

[Edgy MD]

Indeed, that's the trap, though. The billion dollars doesn't get you this year. It gets you the next ten.

[Edgy MD]

Yankee taint is a funny term.



Bartolo Colón probably had a really big Yankee taint. I don't know that it would be the biggest, though. I'm just guessing.