Say it ain't so, Joe.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

According to Buster Olney, St. Louis Cardinals general manager John Mozeliak feels there is growing momentum for bringing the DH rule to the National League in the future.

See who else feels the NL may eventually ruin baseball. http://espn.go.com/blog/buster-olney/insider/post?id=12105

[seawolf17]

Well, I guess once Bartolo retires...

Just kidding. The DH is stupid.

[Centerfield]

Look at what Syndegaard and Matz did with the bat this year. Why would anyone want to take that joy away.

The DH is stupid.

[RealityChuck]

I don't care for the DH, but since most pitchers never get a chance to bat in college and the minors (Matt Harve had 25 PAs, Degrom 34, and Syndergaard, 47), it's unfair to have their first experience in the batter's box against major league pitching.

[Fman99]

I hate the DH.

[Lefty Specialist]

RealityChuck wrote: I don't care for the DH, but since most pitchers never get a chance to bat in college and the minors (Matt Harve had 25 PAs, Degrom 34, and Syndergaard, 47), it's unfair to have their first experience in the batter's box against major league pitching.

Well, eliminate the DH in the minors, too. Problem solved.

[RealityChuck]

Lefty Specialist wrote: RealityChuck wrote: I don't care for the DH, but since most pitchers never get a chance to bat in college and the minors (Matt Harve had 25 PAs, Degrom 34, and Syndergaard, 47), it's unfair to have their first experience in the batter's box against major league pitching. Well, eliminate the DH in the minors, too. Problem solved.

Won't happen unless the AL and college and HS programs drop it.

[Centerfield]

I feel like I ready that Noah Syndergaard hit a HR in Las Vegas.

How is that possible if they have the DH?

[Centerfield]

Here it is:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/video-syndergaard-hits-monster-hr-mets-triple-a-team-article-1.2214621

Noah Syndergaard: "Tell the DH rule to come see me 60 ft, 6 inches away."

[dgwphotography]

I believe the minors are set up like the majors - The DH is used if the home team is an AL-affiliated team, and the pitchers bat if the home team is NL-affiliated.

[Benjamin Grimm]

That seems to be true in AAA. In the lower levels, pitchers don't seem to bat at all. (I base this on looking at minor league hitting stats. We see pitchers listed at the upper level but not at the lower levels.)

[batmagadanleadoff]

RealityChuck wrote: I don't care for the DH, but since most pitchers never get a chance to bat in college and the minors (Matt Harve had 25 PAs, Degrom 34, and Syndergaard, 47), it's unfair to have their first experience in the batter's box against major league pitching.

I don't see what's unfair about the DH insofar as the rules are the same for all NL pitchers.

Frankly, I'm surprised that this "DH in the NL" has momentum. DH's cost money. Lots of it. Typically, DH's are not fringe players, but everyday players who often command larger salaries. They're free agents and sluggers and former position players now slowing down in the middle of huge contracts that are paying them a shitload of money for their 35+ year old seasons. AL team payrolls are higher, on average, than NL payrolls, especially at the top end. And it's totally because of the DH. I'm surprised that NL owners would go for the DH, in light of the financial consideration alone. I can't see Fred wanting this.

[Ceetar]

eh, there aren't that many full-DH and a lot of them would just play poor defense otherwise.

But sure, the salaries would increase somewhat. The players are underpaid right now, so it wouldn't be surprising something this easy and simple could be pushed for in the CBA. (though I still say the rules permit it whenever the commissioner feels like it) I suspect most pitchers would prefer not to have to spend time thinking about this other facet of the game that they aren't really expected to do well anyway.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: and a lot of them would just play poor defense otherwise.

This is about the weakest, lamest reason for a DH. You know who else plays poor defense? My mother.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: The players are underpaid right now.

Players are always underpaid, on average. The way to fix that is to pay them more money. The fix isn't to expand the DH. How would that help Jacob deGrom or Matt Harvey, who are grossly underpaid?

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: and a lot of them would just play poor defense otherwise. This is about the weakest, lamest reason for a DH. You know who else plays poor defense? My mother.

no, it's a reason for a non-DH. my point was it's not like the Yankees would cut A-Rod if the DH vanished. or the Red Sox would cut Ortiz. Maybe they'd pay them a little less, but Ortiz would just statue it up at first and not much would change. The AL has higher salaries/offense because they pay an additional hitter, but not specifically because of full-time DHs.

batmagadanleadoff wrote: The players are underpaid right now. Players are always underpaid, on average. The way to fix that is to pay them more money. The fix isn't to expand the DH. How would that help Jacob deGrom or Matt Harvey, who are grossly underpaid?

It wouldn't, but it's so so so so easy to just say 'DH' here, players will get more money as a result than it is to negotiate the complicated system that is free agency and drafts and arb time and all that. if a higher portion of the pie is one of the union's arguments next winter, tossing them this bone is an easy concession.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: and a lot of them would just play poor defense otherwise. This is about the weakest, lamest reason for a DH. You know who else plays poor defense? My mother. no, it's a reason for a non-DH. my point was it's not like the Yankees would cut A-Rod if the DH vanished. or the Red Sox would cut Ortiz. Maybe they'd pay them a little less, but Ortiz would just statue it up at first and not much would change. The AL has higher salaries/offense because they pay an additional hitter, but not specifically because of full-time DHs.

Well, now you're shifting the discussion from whether the NL should adopt the DH to whether the AL should eliminate it. The Yankees and Red Sox wouldn't have to worry about what to do with A-Rod and Ortiz in the unlikely event that the AL drops the DH because if that were to ever happen, MLB would schedule that event years in the future so that the AL teams could plan for a smooth transition without abruptly being stuck with expensive players signed exclusively for their bats that are all of a sudden huge liabilities because they can't play defense.

[Edgy MD]

I have no problem if they play poor defense. Trading a skill in one area for a paucity in another is part of sports. It makes for better fundamental strategy, and it humanizes players and makes them relatable. It makes the rarity of five tool player that much more remarkable. But such beasts as young A-Rod or the like become less special when the Manny Ramirezes are artificially protected from having to employ their most lacking tools.

And what brings more joy than Bartolo Colon briefly breaking free from what is presumed to be his limitations and slugging an RBI double? Or skedaddling off the mound and flipping an assist behind his back? Or Rusty Staub playing the outfield for the first time in years and making a game-saving shoestring catch in extra innings? Or a 280-pound tackle finding a tasty pastry of a football suddenly bouncing into his arms and pumping his bloated form down the field with all the joy of a third-grader?

Even when they fail — even when their weaknesses are exposed and they utterly, utterly fail (think Todd Hundley, 1998, playing the outfield), that's real human drama. Truth and beauty and nobility and courage are bursting out all over.

Generalization is good. Specialization is bad. In my world (and I do aim to someday have one), professional baseball rosters will be limited to about 16 players. Everybody will have to hit. Everybody will have to play multiple positions. Most everybody will eventually be called on to pitch an inning here or there, including being called in from the outfield to warm up mid-inning. And the human person will shine and God will we glorified.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: In my world (and I do aim to someday have one), professional baseball rosters will be limited to about 16 players. Everybody will have to hit. Everybody will have to play multiple positions. Most everybody will eventually be called on to pitch an inning here or there, including being called in from the outfield to warm up mid-inning. And the human person will shine and God will we glorified.

Hey, that's how we did it when we were adolescents! And when we were done, we'd trek on over to the candy store for Yoo-Hoos and baseball cards.

[Ceetar]

yes, but the result of that is otherwise crappy play in other situations.

Sure, Colon drive in an RBI double that one time and it was really neat. But 9/10 times he flailed wildly, or didn't bother to swing, and the Mets would've been just as well off telling the opposition "We're just gonna let Colon pitch and you only need to get us out 24 times"

Lucas Duda hitting dingers routinely is way more exciting than the aggregate of one Colon wild ride around the basepaths and 9 two minute breaks to get a snack.

[Edgy MD]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Frankly, I'm surprised that this "DH in the NL" has momentum. DH's cost money. Lots of it.

The union deeply desires this. And I imagine the owners considering dangling it as a tradeoff for something the owners deeply desire.

batmagadanleadoff wrote: AL team payrolls are higher, on average, than NL payrolls, especially at the top end.

I'd like to see if this is indeed true, year-in and year-out, or just assumed to be so.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: I have no problem if they play poor defense. Trading a skill in one area for a paucity in another is part of sports. It makes for better fundamental strategy, and it humanizes players and makes them relatable. It makes the rarity of five tool player that much more remarkable. But such beasts as young A-Rod or the like become less special when the Manny Ramirezes are artificially protected from having to employ their most lacking tools. And what brings more joy than Bartolo Colon briefly breaking free from what is presumed to be his limitations and slugging an RBI double? Or skedaddling off the mound and flipping an assist behind his back? Or Rusty Staub playing the outfield for the first time in years and making a game-saving shoestring catch in extra innings? Or a 280-pound tackle finding a tasty pastry of a football suddenly bouncing into his arms and pumping his bloated form down the field with all the joy of a third-grader? Even when they fail — even when their weaknesses are exposed and they utterly, utterly fail (think Todd Hundley, 1998, playing the outfield), that's real human drama. Truth and beauty and nobility and courage are bursting out all over. Generalization is good. Specialization is bad. In my world (and I do aim to someday have one), professional baseball rosters will be limited to about 16 players. Everybody will have to hit. Everybody will have to play multiple positions. Most everybody will eventually be called on to pitch an inning here or there, including being called in from the outfield to warm up mid-inning. And the human person will shine and God will we glorified.

Yup. It also hurts the Syndegaards of the world who can go out there and be a real threat. His counterpart may not even know which end of the bat to hold.

Also DH's get to (in theory) devote all time and energy into hitting, where the Beltrans and A-Rods have to shag fly balls, practice grounders, etc.

Hate the DH. Hate it hate it hate it.

[Edgy MD]

In my world (and I do aim to someday have one), professional baseball rosters will be limited to about 16 players. Everybody will have to hit. Everybody will have to play multiple positions. Most everybody will eventually be called on to pitch an inning here or there, including being called in from the outfield to warm up mid-inning. And the human person will shine and God will we glorified. Hey, that's how we did it when we were adolescents! And when we were done, we'd trek on over to the candy store for Yoo-Hoos and baseball cards.

Relatable!

yes, but the result of that is otherwise crappy play in other situations.

Yes, I tried to thoughtfully address this as well as I could.

Frankly, I'm surprised that this "DH in the NL" has momentum. DH's cost money. Lots of it. The union deeply desires this. And I imagine the owners considering dangling it as a tradeoff for something the owners deeply desire. AL team payrolls are higher, on average, than NL payrolls, especially at the top end. I'd like to see if this is indeed true, year-in and year-out, or just assumed to be so.

For instance, here are the projected payrolls for the start of 2015. (Try as I might, I cannot find semi-official final payrolls from last year, but this is just an experiment.)

NL Team	Projected 2015 Payroll	AL Team	Projected 2015 Payroll
Los Angeles Dodgers	$272,789,040	New York Yankees	$219,282,196
San Francisco Giants	$172,672,111	Boston Red Sox	$187,407,202
Washington Nationals	$164,920,505	Detroit Tigers	$173,813,750
Philadelphia Phillies	$135,827,500	Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim	$150,933,083
St. Louis Cardinals	$120,869,458	Texas Rangers	$142,140,873
Chicago Cubs	$119,006,885	Toronto Blue Jays	$122,506,600
Cincinnati Reds	$117,197,072	Seattle Mariners	$119,798,060
Milwaukee Brewers	$105,002,536	Chicago White Sox	$115,238,678
Colorado Rockies	$102,006,130	Kansas City Royals	$113,618,650
New York Mets	$101,409,244	Baltimore Orioles	$110,146,097
San Diego Padres	$100,675,896	Minnesota Twins	$108,945,000
Atlanta Braves	$97,578,565	Cleveland Indians	$86,091,175
Arizona Diamondbacks	$91,518,833	Oakland A's	$86,086,667
Pittsburgh Pirates	$88,278,500	Tampa Bay Rays	$76,061,707
Miami Marlins	$68,479,000	Houston Astros	$70,910,100
Sum:	$1,858,231,275	Sum:	$1,882,979,838
Mean:	$123,882,085	Mean:	$125,531,989

There we have National League payrolls 1.31% lower per team than those of their American League counterparts. I suppose if that's the average outcome every season, it could be meaningful to management and unions fighting for ever dollar, but it strikes me as, if not inconsequential, certainly within the realm of one-year fluctuations.

Obviously more (and more reliable) data is needed, but I don't think it's crazy that the one more big payday that the DH gets is (largely or completely) made up for piecemeal by the National League teams needing deeper bullpens and deeper benches. The union may still prefer the DH and the one big contract/satisfied member per team, but that strikes me as not particularly loyal to the rank-and-file members who may be doing better in the National League.

[ashie62]

Maybe adding the DH will eliminate some bunting.

[Edgy MD]

Isn't bunting already down to something like record lows?

[Frayed Knot]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Frankly, I'm surprised that this "DH in the NL" has momentum.

Part of the quote from Mozeliak mentions the low run-scoring era as part of the reason for considering it - which is the same sort of short-sighted thinking that brought about the rule in the first place.
Although it was mostly the fact that the AL was the lower attendance league [they had the lower-drawing NY team, the lower LA team, the lower Missouri team, etc.] that led them to adopt the DH, they were also the lower offensive league in that era so they figured that the combo of an extra 'name' slugger on the roster would help with both problems. That the rule itself was supposed to be temporary and the AL outlived both the run-scoring and attendance problems didn't stop the rule from becoming entrenched.

[Lefty Specialist]

I despise the DH. It's artificial baseball. You may as well play with two outfielders if you want more offense.

The players union wants more jobs, not necessarily more DH's, Eliminate the DH and expand rosters to 26 or 27 players.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Lefty Specialist wrote: Eliminate the DH and expand rosters to 26 or 27 players.

That's what I'm hoping to see happen.

[batmagadanleadoff]

In my world (and I do aim to someday have one), professional baseball rosters will be limited to about 16 players. Everybody will have to hit. Everybody will have to play multiple positions. Most everybody will eventually be called on to pitch an inning here or there, including being called in from the outfield to warm up mid-inning. And the human person will shine and God will we glorified. Hey, that's how we did it when we were adolescents! And when we were done, we'd trek on over to the candy store for Yoo-Hoos and baseball cards. Relatable! yes, but the result of that is otherwise crappy play in other situations. Yes, I tried to thoughtfully address this as well as I could. Frankly, I'm surprised that this "DH in the NL" has momentum. DH's cost money. Lots of it. The union deeply desires this. And I imagine the owners considering dangling it as a tradeoff for something the owners deeply desire. AL team payrolls are higher, on average, than NL payrolls, especially at the top end. I'd like to see if this is indeed true, year-in and year-out, or just assumed to be so. For instance, here are the projected payrolls for the start of 2015. (Try as I might, I cannot find semi-official final payrolls from last year, but this is just an experiment.) NL Team Projected 2015 Payroll AL Team Projected 2015 Payroll Los Angeles Dodgers $272,789,040 New York Yankees $219,282,196 San Francisco Giants $172,672,111 Boston Red Sox $187,407,202 Washington Nationals $164,920,505 Detroit Tigers $173,813,750 Philadelphia Phillies $135,827,500 Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim $150,933,083 St. Louis Cardinals $120,869,458 Texas Rangers $142,140,873 Chicago Cubs $119,006,885 Toronto Blue Jays $122,506,600 Cincinnati Reds $117,197,072 Seattle Mariners $119,798,060 Milwaukee Brewers $105,002,536 Chicago White Sox $115,238,678 Colorado Rockies $102,006,130 Kansas City Royals $113,618,650 New York Mets $101,409,244 Baltimore Orioles $110,146,097 San Diego Padres $100,675,896 Minnesota Twins $108,945,000 Atlanta Braves $97,578,565 Cleveland Indians $86,091,175 Arizona Diamondbacks $91,518,833 Oakland A's $86,086,667 Pittsburgh Pirates $88,278,500 Tampa Bay Rays $76,061,707 Miami Marlins $68,479,000 Houston Astros $70,910,100 Sum: $1,858,231,275 Sum: $1,882,979,838 Mean: $123,882,085 Mean: $125,531,989 There we have National League payrolls 1.31% lower per team than those of their American League counterparts. I suppose if that's the average outcome every season, it could be meaningful to management and unions fighting for ever dollar, but it strikes me as, if not inconsequential, certainly within the realm of one-year fluctuations. Obviously more (and more reliable) data is needed, but I don't think it's crazy that the one more big payday that the DH gets is (largely or completely) made up for piecemeal by the National League teams needing deeper bullpens and deeper benches. The union may still prefer the DH and the one big contract/satisfied member per team, but that strikes me as not particularly loyal to the rank-and-file members who may be doing better in the National League.

Looks like the suddenly obscenely-rich Dodgers singlehandedly skewing the data.

[Edgy MD]

That's certainly worthwhile speculation, but it's not like the Dodgers haven't been on top for a few years now. The same perspective could say any of a number of teams (the Mets?) is skewing the data. The only answer is a linear study.

The Dodgers, after loading up down the stretch with the likes of Jimmy Rollins, were actually closer to $300 million.