Harvey's innings

[HahnSolo]

Per Jon Heyman, Sandy and Boras at odds over Matt's innings moving forward�
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/25290191/how-much-will-matt-harvey-pitch-innings-limit-debate-coming-to-a-head

Boras says it's not him but the doctors who are making the determination to limit Harvey to 180 innings, and the doctors are the ones the Mets have no choice but to abide. If Harvey has just two starts left this year, it's hard to see how much, if any, playoff impact he might have. "This is not a club's decision. This is a doctor's decision," Boras said. "Any club that chooses to defy a surgeon's wishes is putting the player in peril."

I always thought it was the club's decision myself.

Alderson, however, contends the parties spoke before the season about protecting Harvey by having some innings limitations, and that they "see no reason to deviate from the original plan." Alderson also says that the Mets had a "soft" limit all along he felt was acceptable to all. He maintains that he has been in consultation with doctors as well. But Boras said, "Expert opinion by medical practitioners is not a soft number. There are no soft numbers. These are medical practitioners providing opinions about when a pitcher is at risk, and when a pitcher isn't at risk."

Expert opinion is still opinion.

The GM also said that they had an approximate innings limit in mind, but he didn't name it and said that it wasn't hard and fast, anyway. "We had a soft target, and we really don't expect to go much above it,' Alderson said. Boras counters that "there are no soft numbers" and that "this is not a negotiation." Mets people seem to have the idea Boras has influence over the doctors, but Boras said that isn't so -- though he contended his own research does tell him pitchers returning after Tommy John surgery do better long-term with lower innings totals, naming Shaun Marcum and a few others who exceeded previous totals, and later ran into more arm trouble. "These are doctors' opinions," Boras said. "And club officials are not determining how many innings he can pitch. Matt Harvey would love to pitch. But the surgeon who saved his career and other surgeons consulted have said that for maximum safety he is not to exceed 180 innings for the year." Alderson conceded there may be a "slightly enhanced" risk if a pitcher goes past 180 innings, and one "doesn't need a medical degree to say that."

I worry this is going to get ugly.

[Ceetar]

no it's not, Boras is a blowhard. Mets will do what they were planning to do the whole time, which appears to be skip another start and let him pitch in the playoffs.

[HahnSolo]

Ceetar wrote: no it's not, Boras is a blowhard.

Which is exactly why I worry this is going to get very public and very ugly. I'm in agreement that the Mets will stick to their plan (whatever it is), that doesn't mean Boras won't fan the flames and the media won't eat it up and spit it out.

[soupcan]

Ugly or not, my feeling is that Harvey is not going to be a long term Met so I'm not going to get my panties in a twist about it.

I love Harv but he just doesn't strike me as the type to be happy in Queens. He's a money guy. Boras will, as Boras does, encourage him toward the biggest contract and we all know that it won't be the one the Mets are offering.

He'll wind up in Anaheim or Texas.

[Ceetar]

HahnSolo wrote: Ceetar wrote: no it's not, Boras is a blowhard. Which is exactly why I worry this is going to get very public and very ugly. I'm in agreement that the Mets will stick to their plan (whatever it is), that doesn't mean Boras won't fan the flames and the media won't eat it up and spit it out.

Well sure, Heyman's basically a Boras spokesperson anyway and the media loves this stuff. But the Mets are awesome and winning trumps it all. It's only when no one wants to talk about the games that setting shit on fire dominates the discussion.

[Edgy MD]

No agent wants to hit free agency with an injured pitcher.

Neither does he want to hit free agency with a pitcher whose agent begs him off the post-season roster. If Boras is in earnest, he should have made his case in private.

[Fman99]

soupcan wrote: Ugly or not, my feeling is that Harvey is not going to be a long term Met so I'm not going to get my panties in a twist about it. I love Harv but he just doesn't strike me as the type to be happy in Queens. He's a money guy. Boras will, as Boras does, encourage him toward the biggest contract and we all know that it won't be the one the Mets are offering. He'll wind up in Anaheim or Texas.

I bet he's researching the quality of the Colorado school systems right now.

[Benjamin Grimm]

My feeling is, and has been, that the Mets should trade him after the 2016 season. He'll be two years from free agency and (assuming he's healthy, of course) his trade value will probably be very high.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Harvester has pictures of Monument Park in his den I bet. He'll
be a true Yankee for sure at some point.

[Edgy MD]

I don't know, but I certainly hope that if he becomes a Yankee, he never becomes a true one.

[Lefty Specialist]

If Harvey goes along with this, the fans are going to turn on HIM. The Mets have been talking about this IN PUBLIC for the entire year. Boras could have said something in June or July but chose not to. He's doing it now to put the screws to the Mets.

How did limiting Strasburg's innings work out? He's been injury-free ever since, right?

If they insist on the 180 limit, shut him down right now and go with a 5-man rotation. Fuck Boras.

[Edgy MD]

That's pretty much what would have to happen.

But it's not what Boras is angling for. He's criticizing but not insisting. And certainly not putting his client in the position of insisting. That way, when Harvey gets injured down the road � which experience suggests will happen, sooner or later � he has planted the seeds to retro-shame the team. LOLMETS!!11!!

I just need to get me some Quallcomm.

[Gwreck]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: My feeling is, and has been, that the Mets should trade him after the 2016 season. He'll be two years from free agency and (assuming he's healthy, of course) his trade value will probably be very high.

I guess it would depend on what kind of position player the Mets would get in return but that makes a lot of sense, particularly once the Mets have a better idea of how well Wheeler will be coming back form surgery.

[TransMonk]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: My feeling is, and has been, that the Mets should trade him after the 2016 season. He'll be two years from free agency and (assuming he's healthy, of course) his trade value will probably be very high.

I hope the Mets win a ring or two before that point, though.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Just an aside... if the Mets make the playoffs the next two years
and have some success or even better and they can't afford to start
locking up a few of their key players for big money they shouldn't be
allowed (and don't deserve) to own a team in New York.

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: Just an aside... if the Mets make the playoffs the next two years and have some success or even better and they can't afford to start locking up a few of their key players for big money they shouldn't be allowed (and don't deserve) to own a team in New York.

That's not an aside, it's practically worthless. Of course the Mets would have the money. Should they happen to, years in the future, decide not to offer Harvey or another player an extension it's likely due to non-financial reasons.

[seawolf17]

soupcan wrote: Ugly or not, my feeling is that Harvey is not going to be a long term Met so I'm not going to get my panties in a twist about it. I love Harv but he just doesn't strike me as the type to be happy in Queens. He's a money guy. Boras will, as Boras does, encourage him toward the biggest contract and we all know that it won't be the one the Mets are offering. He'll wind up in Anaheim or Texas.

I think this too.

I can't get worked up over this; it's Boras doing his job. If Harvey pitches 200 innings and stays healthy, then nothing comes of it; if he gets hurt, then Boras can say "I told you so," which endears him to his clients, which is all he cares about.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Ceetar wrote: That's not an aside, it's practically worthless. Of course the Mets would have the money. Should they happen to, years in the future, decide not to offer Harvey or another player an extension it's likely due to non-financial reasons.

Let's hope so, but cheap is cheap and Boras doesn't accept coupons.

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: Ceetar wrote: That's not an aside, it's practically worthless. Of course the Mets would have the money. Should they happen to, years in the future, decide not to offer Harvey or another player an extension it's likely due to non-financial reasons. Let's hope so, but cheap is cheap and Boras doesn't accept coupons.

I'd have to look. Have NO Boras clients signed pre-FA extensions? The whole point of extensions is trading the security of a contract for a few less bucks overall. Especially for pitchers. By waiting out say two years you're basically gambling that you won't get hurt against what, 10% more money? That Boras generally seems dismissive of this risk is detrimental to his clients and it's really no surprise that you see a lot of guys cut ties with him and at least one GM that he hasn't even spoken to directly in 10 years.

[Guest d'Kong76]

I know this is the Harvey thread, but I mean locking up some
core talent in general by opening up the dusty checkbook.
$uccess should put them back in the big market category. If not,
rinse repeat what I said above.

[Edgy MD]

I don't think anybody accepts coupons. John Mayberry supposedly came to the Mets at a cheaper rate than the Cardinals were offering because he thought he'd get more trips to the plate and be able to put up some loftier stats for next year's market. Oops.

But such bets against the future aside, I don't think anybody accepts coupons. If Harvey signs here, it's because the Mets are getting him at the price they think he's worth. I'm not sweating it.

I'm confident the Mets hope to lock up core talent. I'm more confident that they hope to sweep through the post-season first.

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: I know this is the Harvey thread, but I mean locking up some core talent in general by opening up the dusty checkbook. $uccess should put them back in the big market category. If not, rinse repeat what I said above.

Niese, Lagares, they considered/started the process with Duda.

They're already doing that?

[Guest d'Kong76]

Edgy MD wrote: I don't think anybody accepts coupons.

I know coupons is old and dumb, I had a weak moment.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Ceetar wrote: Niese, Lagares, they considered/started the process with Duda. They're already doing that?

Not to be rude, but defending the Wilpons just doesn't make any
sense to me whatsoever.

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: Ceetar wrote: Niese, Lagares, they considered/started the process with Duda. They're already doing that? Not to be rude, but defending the Wilpons just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

I'm not defending them, but the narrative is tired. If the Mets spend 100 it's why don't they spend 120? if they spend 120 it's why don't they spend 140? You said they need to extend players because it's what teams in big markets do, well, they're doing that. Why wouldn't it continue?

Regardless of how far the Mets go, this is going to come up next with Cespedes because he's playing well above his talent level for the Mets and his talent level and age isn't really the kind of player you need to spend $60+ on. It's the perfect storm of a good baseball move to pass on him that could be pointed to as blaming the finances.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Ceetar wrote: Regardless of how far the Mets go, this is going to come up next with Cespedes because he's playing well above his talent level for the Mets and his talent level and age isn't really the kind of player you need to spend $60+ on. It's the perfect storm of a good baseball move to pass on him that could be pointed to as blaming the finances.

Nah, his contract is a whole 'nother ball of wax. Most sensible
people know he probably won't be back.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Scott Boras likes to find the one dumb owner who will overpay, dramatically, for his client. If the Mets wisely choose to not be that one dumb team, then I won't find fault with that. I think that's how it will play out with Harvey. I don't think, in this case at least, it's going to be about the Wilpons.

[Zvon]

If I was a reporter I'd head right to Harvey and ask him what he thinks. That should stir up further shit, hopefully between Matt and Boras.

As far as the innings limit the Mets have been moving forward with that in mind and acting in support of such a limit, and that's all you can do.

What the fuck does Boras want? If it's to put Harvey on a shelf I think Matt will have issue with that. This inning stuff will be worked out. Sandy has gone on record stating that if the Mets make the post season all restrictions on pitchers will be lifted, and that was my major concern when it came to an innings limits. Other than that it's just some bullshit that a manger has to contend with. As is Boras to a GM.

[Lefty Specialist]

I think everybody with a microphone will be sticking it in Matt's face right about now. He's going to have to say something.

[Edgy MD]

Adam Rubin reporting that the Mets will ride Harvey like a Turkish stallion in the playoffs, blast past any innings limits, and laugh and point whenever Boras sticks his head up above the water.

He further reports that Harvey will sign with the Yankees at his earliest opportunity and become the first player ever to hit the disabled list over an injury that incurred while signing his contract. Yankees Pitching Coach Lawrence Lee "Larry" Rothschild will decry that the Mets over-worked Harvey's signing musles by forcing him to sign all those baseballs and programs for children. Dan Warthan will officially respond with the words "Ho, ho, ho."

After missing all six years of his Yankee contract with the exception of occasional rehab games, the Mets will sign Harvey to an incentive laden minor league deal. He'll eventually get into good enough shape to proved 14 more-or-less successful garbage innings down the stretch, but the zip won't be there, and the pain won't go away, and Harvey will retire at the end of the 2025 season, focusing on his marriage and skin care product endorsements.

It seems Rubin did a lot of ground work on that piece.