2013 HOF In Balloting Thread

[stevejrogers]

It's that time again!

http://mets360.com/?p=13597

I'm very nervous about Piazza. Especially in light of Jeff Bagwell's performance last year, whom is the same category in terms of PED rumors as Piazza is.

[nymr83]

HOF balloting has become a joke with the "steroid guys.". After the farce was extended to Bagwell for suspected use, its safe to assume that the new eligibility standard is "doesn't look too strong," I don't feel good about Piazza's chances with Bagwell missing.

[nymr83]

Try keeping this out of the Hall, douchebag writers!

[youtube:7cyecr23]www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBMC1tA4CdM&sns=tw[/youtube:7cyecr23]

[Ceetar]

On the other hand, maybe Piazza can be the 'good guy' in comparison to Bonds and Clemens. Or that's what they're saving Bagwell for..

[Edgy MD]

Bagwell did it all as just another power-hitting firstbaseman. That he was better than most and played half his career in the Astrodome is worth considering, but more likely his luster is dimmed by playing in the shadow of the Frank Thomases and Mark McGwires and Andres Gallaragas and Rafael Palmeiros, the roidy smell of many of whom sticks to the others.

As a record-setting catcher, Piazza stands apart, I think. He may be a suspect by virtue of circumstancial evidence, but his records force the issue in a way that Bagwell doesn't. Does that make sense?

I think he's a first-ballot dude.

[nymr83]

I think Bagwell's career easily surpasses that of Galaragga and is ahead of McGwire and Palmiero while being slightly behind Thomas. But I do get your point.

[Vic Sage]

[revised 11/30/12]

yes:
Roger Clemens *
Barry Bonds *
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Tim Raines

Borderline / Yes:
Curt Schilling
Alan Trammell
Edgar Martinez

Borderline / No:
Mark McGwire *
Rafael Palmeiro *
Sammy Sosa *
Larry Walker
Jack Morris
Lee Smith

* = PED brigade

No, but stick around:
Dale Murphy
Fred McGriff
Don Mattingly
Bernie Williams
Sandy Alomar Jr
Kenny Lofton

1-and-done:
Julio Franco
Shawn Green
Roberto Hernandez
David Wells
Steve Finley
Ryan Klesko
Mike Lieberthal
Jose Mesa
Tony Batista
Jeff Conine
Jeff Cirillo
Royce Clayton
Damian Miller
Reggie Sanders
Aaron Sele
Mike Stanton
Jose Valentin
Todd Walker
Rondell White
Bob Wickman
Woody Williams

Edited November 27, 2012 by Guest

[Gwreck]

I like that ballot, except I would put McGwire into the solid "yes" category. 11th on the career list in Adjusted OPS? Plus all the counting stats, etc. Compare to Sosa being 190th on that same list.

I would vote for McGwire, Bonds and -- yes -- Clemens without hesitation.

[stevejrogers]

Would not be shocked if Wells got enough support based on his "clutch" performances and perceived "fun guy to have a beer with" schtick from voters who didn't have any interaction with him or care about all the "hearsay" stories to stick around at least another year though.

[Frayed Knot]

My biggest Yeses would go to Piazza, Biggio & Raines.
I could possibly be talked into a few others and I think the Roids brigade is going to have to wait a bit longer until folks start to sort that era out in their minds.

[seawolf17]

Yes:
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy

No:
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Rafael Palmeiro
Mark McGwire
Sammy Sosa
Curt Schilling
Larry Walker
Lee Smith
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Bernie Williams
Sandy Alomar Jr
Tony Batista
Jeff Cirillo
Royce Clayton
Jeff Conine
Steve Finley
Julio Franco
Shawn Green
Roberto Hernandez
Ryan Klesko
Mike Lieberthal
Kenny Lofton
Jose Mesa
Damian Miller
Reggie Sanders
Aaron Sele
Mike Stanton
Jose Valentin
Todd Walker
David Wells
Rondell White
Bob Wickman
Woody Williams

I always vote for ten, but I'm leaving Walker and McGwire off right now. Bonds and Clemens are both no because I just don't like either of them.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Edgar Martinez
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mark McGwire

The whole point of the HoF is to tell the story of baseball excellence, yes? How do you tell the story of excellence in the last 20 years without Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Rage McTeenFucker?

[seawolf17]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: The whole point of the HoF is to tell the story of baseball excellence, yes? How do you tell the story of excellence in the last 20 years without Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, and Rage McTeenFucker?

See, that's just it. That's one of my internal criteria for my HoF votes, which is why I'm going to have to bend on Bonds and McGwire at some point. (But not Clemens.)

[Fman99]

Yes:
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines

No:
The Other Dudes

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Batch
Bigs
Bags
Bonds
Rock

[Vic Sage]

the thing about the PEDs brigade is that Bonds and Clemens were clearly HOFers before their late career Roid-induced surges, whereas i think the HOF case for McGwire, Sosa and Palmiero relies primarily on their Roid years.

[MFS62]

Fman99 wrote: Yes: Mike Piazza Craig Biggio Jeff Bagwell Tim Raines No: The Other Dudes

This.

OE: Add Trammell to my list of ins.

Later

Edited November 27, 2012 by Guest

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

I fear that the window for deserving people like Raines and Trammell has closed with all the studly and controversial people on ballot. Their best chances were when there were fewer no-brainers and some similar-level players -- Larkin, Blyleven -- were getting in.

I think Piazza gets in. I think Bonds, Clemens and the others will have to wait a while.

[Ceetar]

Vic Sage wrote: the thing about the PEDs brigade is that Bonds and Clemens were clearly HOFers before their late career Roid-induced surges, whereas i think the HOF case for McGwire, Sosa and Palmiero relies primarily on their Roid years.

before the time we _think_ they started PEDs anyway. They were probably using amphetamines and other stuff before that too, just like everyone else.

Of course we don't even know that it helped either.

[Edgy MD]

Nymr83 wrote: I think Bagwell's career easily surpasses that of Galaragga and is ahead of McGwire and Palmiero while being slightly behind Thomas. But I do get your point.

Yeah, I agree, but that requires actual analysis. In the class picture, he's part of a crowd.

1-and-done: Woody Williams

Hater.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Batch Bigs Bags Bonds Rock

A Hall of Fame ballot or an illicit drug order?

[bmfc1]

As long as Piazza is in and Clemens is not, I won't complain.

Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Curt Schilling
Dale Murphy
Tim Raines.

[nymr83]

The steroid guys are soon going to leave a huge backlog on the ballot to the point that the guys who deserve to stick around for further discussion (Mattingly, Morris, Martinez, etc) may soon drop off.

In: Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell, Raines, Trammell, Schilling

ROIDS: Clemens, Bonds, Palmiero, McGwire - let them in.

And now that we're done taking the moral high ground on steroids, put Pete Rose and Joe Jackson in the hall too. That doesn't mean Rose needs to be allowed around the game again but what he did as a player belongs in the history museum.

Close but no: Martinez, Sosa, L Walker, Morris - I feel like I've been staring at Morris' name on the ballot for as long as I've followed baseball, and I'm still not convinced. Sosa could turn me probably. The DH issue is a tough one. Walker looks bad (as a HOF-candidate, not a baseball player) when you adjust those numbers

No, but stay on the ballot: Smith, Mattingly, B Williams, McGriff, Alomar jr

Everyone else can drop off the ballot.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Nymr83 wrote: That doesn't mean Rose needs to be allowed around the game again but what he did as a player belongs in the history museum.

I think I'm in the minority here, but I see a distinction between the Hall and the Museum. Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe, Barry Bonds, etc. can have their stuff in the museum. But I do think that infamy (the opposite of Fame) should keep somebody out of the Hall. So I'd be quite happy if Clemens, Bonds, and McGwire never got inducted into the Hall.

[Edgy MD]

I think that it's kind of hypocritical of the game to feature artifacts from people they have banned for life.

I mean, ban them if you want, but don't kick 'em out of the house and keep their stuff.

Saddest exhibit in the Hall of Fame was a letter begging for re-instatement from an obviously broken Joe Jackson.

[Frayed Knot]

Sad maybe, but also part of the game's history.

The HoF is both a museum for the game's history and a gallery for the honoring of the game's best. I have no problem when there are conflicts within that dual mission.

[Valadius]

My ballot:

Bagwell
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Martinez
McGwire
Piazza
Raines
Schilling
Walker

I would also put in:

Morris
Murphy
Palmeiro
Smith
Sosa
Trammell

I've been warning about the 2013 glut for something like four or five years now. It's really sad that we're going to have people waiting twenty years now most likely to get in via the Veteran's Committee when it should have taken six or seven, because some baseball writers give themselves bullshit cutoffs for their number of picks when they should be using all ten available. Really sad.

[Edgy MD]

Valadius.

[Frayed Knot]

Valadius wrote: I've been warning about the 2013 glut for something like four or five years now. It's really sad that we're going to have people waiting twenty years now most likely to get in via the Veteran's Committee when it should have taken six or seven, because some baseball writers give themselves bullshit cutoffs for their number of picks when they should be using all ten available. Really sad.

Or maybe, just maybe mind you, they don't think that there are ten good choices each year.

[Valadius]

For some that is clearly the case. But I've read enough "ballot explanations" where the voter writes "I never vote more than two guys because..." to know that this can have an effect.

[Edgy MD]

Can you cite some?