Pelfrey's Mouth and Value (split from Let's Trade Beltran)

[Gwreck]

What a moron. Less talk, more performance please.

[smg58]

I'm not overly concerned about Pelfrey next year. If (a big if obviously) Johan is healthy, a rotation of Santana, Dickey, Niese, Pelfrey, and Gee does not require tinkering with. Especially if Pelfrey rebounds as he's done twice in the past. Plus, the team has an enormous amount of pitching talent in the pipeline for 2013. I don't think this offseason is the time to consider parting ways with Pelfrey.

But that doesn't mean that "shut up and pitch better" wouldn't be very sound advice...

[Ceetar]

smg58 wrote: I'm not overly concerned about Pelfrey next year. If (a big if obviously) Johan is healthy, a rotation of Santana, Dickey, Niese, Pelfrey, and Gee does not require tinkering with. Especially if Pelfrey rebounds as he's done twice in the past. Plus, the team has an enormous amount of pitching talent in the pipeline for 2013. I don't think this offseason is the time to consider parting ways with Pelfrey. But that doesn't mean that "shut up and pitch better" wouldn't be very sound advice...

I'm pondering signing a 6th guy and tinkering with Dickey in the bullpen actually, but it might be hard to do that if he's been the best pitcher this year. (which is probably up for debate, but it's either him or Niese)

[metirish]

It's amazing , once again a quote from a jock was "taken out of context" and " blown out of proportion" , just like every other perceived negative quote EVER.

[Ceetar]

metirish wrote: It's amazing , once again a quote from a jock was "taken out of context" and " blown out of proportion" , just like every other perceived quote EVER.

fixed.

[MFS62]

If Pelfrey is on the Mets next year, and not considered to be the #1 -#3 starter, I'm almost ok with that.
If he isn't on the Mets next year, I won't lose any sleep over it, either.

Later

[metsmarathon]

i'm always a little bit pollyanna about these things, and an often give ceetar a run for his rose-colored glasses' money on the optimism side. and when i read the full article, it sure as hell seems to me that mike pelfrey is having a heartfelt conversation that mike puma has baited him into for the purposes of a sensationalistic article.

"PELFREY DIDN'T BELIEVE IN METS!"

who the fuck did? hell, i don't think even ceetar had them picked for the division! the most optimistic of mets fans would probably have been happy with a 500 season. the pessimists would have been floored by one.

but, no. it's shocking and appalling for him to speak his mind on the matter. what nerve! what a jerk! shut up and pitch! cut him! he sucks! he's a headcase! go lick your hand someplace else! get rid of him! we don't believe in you, either!

ok, some of that is fair. he licks his hand waaaaaaaaay too much. and he probably is a headcase to an extent. (probably to the same extent that each of us is a headcase, btw)

but the only thing he did wrong in speaking with mike puma was in speaking sincerely to a man who was clearly not.

[Guest themetfairy]

He had an independent thought. Big fucking deal.

[ashie62]

Ceetar wrote: smg58 wrote: I'm not overly concerned about Pelfrey next year. If (a big if obviously) Johan is healthy, a rotation of Santana, Dickey, Niese, Pelfrey, and Gee does not require tinkering with. Especially if Pelfrey rebounds as he's done twice in the past. Plus, the team has an enormous amount of pitching talent in the pipeline for 2013. I don't think this offseason is the time to consider parting ways with Pelfrey. But that doesn't mean that "shut up and pitch better" wouldn't be very sound advice... I'm pondering signing a 6th guy and tinkering with Dickey in the bullpen actually, but it might be hard to do that if he's been the best pitcher this year. (which is probably up for debate, but it's either him or Niese)

Or Gee maybe?

[smg58]

Dickey leads the starters in ERA and IP. Given how awful he was the first six weeks of the season, it's impossible to complain about a 3.75 ERA. The record is a reflection of extremely unlucky run support more than anything else.

The more I think about the Pelfrey/Trachsel analogy, the more I like it. They're both decent pitchers who showed enough flashes to make some people think they were more than that. But that's OK. I can't imagine anybody really expected Pelfrey to pitch like an ace this year. He may have been the favorite to lead the staff, and it's certainly disappointing that he's been arguably the 5th best starter, but he hasn't been dreadful.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I'm a lot less bothered by Pelf's ill-advised (mayhaps), candid comments and what they reveal than the earlier ones from the team's owner.

The cost of keeping the former's speaker in his place is a lot less, too.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I wanna know what the hell happened to that 97+MPH fast ball Pelf had in college. Talk about false advertising.


I wonder if Pelf ever asked the Mets for his old college uniform number?

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's not the velocity that bugs me. He usually sits at 94, peaks at 96. He probably sat at 93 yesterday, but it's the second half of the season, and he's not 21 no more.

It's the pitch sequence that gets me. He seems to get ahead and then back into counts that favor the batter.

[Fman99]

themetfairy wrote: He had an independent thought. Big fucking deal.

I'm telling Skynet on you.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: It's not the velocity that bugs me. He usually sits at 94, peaks at 96. He probably sat at 93 yesterday, but it's the second half of the season, and he's not 21 no more. It's the pitch sequence that gets me. He seems to get ahead and then back into counts that favor the batter.

And I'm not turning this into a different debate, but who do you think teaches him pitch sequence?

And it's not even that. Who's in charge of _correcting_ what appears to be a poor sequence? Pelfrey is here, and there's a fair shot he'll continue to be here. So whether or not we think it's an Ace or scum or whatever, bring guys in that maximize the tools we have. whether it's a pitching coach or a veteran pitcher or a catcher.

But it's probably not that simple. He gets ahead because batters aren't afraid to swing and miss and guess with less than 2 strikes. Pelfrey often lacks either the control/ability of a pitch to fool guys, or simply isn't setting them up properly.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ceetar wrote: And I'm not turning this into a different debate, but who do you think teaches him pitch sequence?

Oh, yes, you are, you dickens, you.

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: Ceetar wrote: And I'm not turning this into a different debate, but who do you think teaches him pitch sequence? Oh, yes, you are, you dickens, you.

No, really, I'm agreeing with you and just pondering how to best go about fixing it.

[Guest attgig]

smg58 wrote: Dickey leads the starters in ERA and IP. Given how awful he was the first six weeks of the season, it's impossible to complain about a 3.75 ERA. The record is a reflection of extremely unlucky run support more than anything else. The more I think about the Pelfrey/Trachsel analogy, the more I like it. They're both decent pitchers who showed enough flashes to make some people think they were more than that. But that's OK. I can't imagine anybody really expected Pelfrey to pitch like an ace this year. He may have been the favorite to lead the staff, and it's certainly disappointing that he's been arguably the 5th best starter, but he hasn't been dreadful.

we got a few CONSISTENT years out of Trachsel. Pelf on the other hand...not so much.... flashes of goodness (i won't even say brilliance).... with lots of mediocrity. it was a mistake to think he'd be an ace, and like someone else said...he'll should come back as a #4/#5 pitcher next year.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'm also in dispute as to whether people (or anybody) thought Trachsel was more than he was.

I'm not comfortable with the Trachsel/Pelfrey analogy in general --- Trax was a mid-career free agent, Pelf a draftee; Trax had pitchability, Pelf has stuff; Trax was a dork, Pelf is a dude; Trax was clinical, Pelf is emotional; etc.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yeah, the main thing that Pelfrey and Trachsel have in common is that they didn't pitch as well as we wanted them to. They're certainly not the only two to fit that category.

For me, the decision about Pelfrey comes down to these questions:

How much will he get paid next year?
Is he worth that amount?
Can the Mets replace him with someone better and/or cheaper?

My hunch is that he won't be back next year, one way or another, but it's just a hunch, and not an especially strong one. I won't be shocked if he returns, but I think he'll be gone.

[TransMonk]

TransMonk wrote: I don't think he'll ever be able to be consistently relied upon as a top of the rotation stater. He's a poor man's Steve Trachsel.

Pelf as a Met: 49-50, 4.35, 93+

Trachs as a Met: 66-59, 4.09, 103+

Nothing to do with how they were acquired or their stuff or their "dudeness".

[Guest Edgy DC]

Which is, quite honestly, off the charts.

[Guest attgig]

TransMonk wrote: TransMonk wrote: I don't think he'll ever be able to be consistently relied upon as a top of the rotation stater. He's a poor man's Steve Trachsel. Pelf as a Met: 49-50, 4.35, 93+ Trachs as a Met: 66-59, 4.09, 103+ Nothing to do with how they were acquired or their stuff or their "dudeness".

Trax years as met:
11-13, 4.46, 94
11-11, 3.37, 119
16-10, 3.78, 111
12-13, 4.00, 107
1-4, 4.14, 100
15-8, 4.97, 94

pelf years as met:
2-1, 5.48, 81
3-8, 5.57, 78
13-11, 3.72, 113
10-12, 5.03, 81
15-9, 3.66, 108
6-9, 4.53, 84

lots of growing pains for pelf (looks actually closer to trax's yonger days when he was on the cubs). maybe in a few years, he'll become a rich man's trax, considering pelf is already earning more than trax's first year with the mets... nonetheless, not a great investment until he can be more consistent.

[seawolf17]

Pelf's similarity scores are eerily fascinating and really tell you nothing:

Similar Pitchers through 26 - and what they did after age 26
Johnny Marcum (982) - 1933-1939, so it's largely irrelevant.
Todd Stottlemyre (980) - Very Pelfian numbers in the AL, but turned it on in STL and had a pretty solid second half of his career.
Kip Wells (975) - Went on to lead the NL in losses with PIT in 2005 (18) and with STL in 2007 (17), then imploded. Was a Duck in 2010.
Ricky Bones (973) - Became a middle reliever, then a pitching coach.
Pete Redfern (973) - Went 5-11, 6.58 in 1982 at age 27, then vanished.
Jason Marquis (973) - Led the NL in losses in 2006 (17) at 27, and despite Metly overtures, has been largely forgettable.
Adam Eaton (973) - Got progressively worse each year; out of baseball at 31.
Jason Schmidt (970) - Got more productive, actually; three ASG appearances and two near-Cy Youngs in his 30s.
Pat Hentgen (969) - Won a Cy Young at 27 with Toronto, then grew crazy meatchops and started to wash out two years later.
John Lackey (969) - Lit up the AL with Anaheim, but has been pedestrian in Boston the last two years and is now 32.

Most Similar by Ages
24. John Lackey (992) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
25. Jason Schmidt (985) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
26. Johnny Marcum (982) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C

[bmfc1]

Trade him to Florida for Logan Morrison.