Don't trade Reyes

[seawolf17]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I looked at the site. Liked the shirts with the neon players from Shea. The rest? Eh.

Some of them are funny, but not necessarily funny enough to buy. Although I do like the VALENTINE 2 one. I bought one of the neon guy shirts last summer; quality shirt.

[Ceetar]

seawolf17 wrote: metsguyinmichigan wrote: I looked at the site. Liked the shirts with the neon players from Shea. The rest? Eh. Some of them are funny, but not necessarily funny enough to buy. Although I do like the VALENTINE 2 one. I bought one of the neon guy shirts last summer; quality shirt.

I like some of them. I'm not overly enamored with them persay, but I get that there would be demand for some of the Queens. It probably is more appealing to a certain demographic, and one that we like to pretend only goes to Yankees games, but are plenty prevelant in Mets gear as well. I kinda like the Even Lesbians Love Dickey one, but probably not something I would wear myself. But I think it fills a gap in Mets merchandise that they seem reluctant to fill except with corporate Pink/Touch stuff.

While I get why they kicked him out, and maybe it's even fair (although plenty sketchy and heavy-handed by security, but that's what happens when you're security/cops/bouncers. You get heavy handed because that's your job and no one's policing you. They treated me the same way in Shea, perhaps worse, for a much tamer offense) but I can't help but wonder if it was MLB related. They were fine with the sign on SNY. Or maybe it just took them that long to figure out the legal twist to not having ".com" on your sign.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Trying to sell shirts really weakens the impact of the message. Presumably these guys would be schilling "Get Manny" shirts a few years ago.

[metirish]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Trying to sell shirts really weakens the impact of the message. Presumably these guys would be schilling "Get Manny" shirts a few years ago.

or worse GOT MANNY? shirts.

[stevejrogers]

Ceetar wrote: They were fine with the sign on SNY. Or maybe it just took them that long to figure out the legal twist to not having ".com" on your sign.

Or it took them that long to realize that it was a merchandise site, and not someone pimping out his blog or fan community outlet.

FWIW, I'm starting to think maybe this line of thinking is a bit counter productive in terms of starting fresh. Not to go back into the whole "cahhaw" (TM The Sports Pope Francesa) debate.

But, the guy has been very often injured. And yeah the Mets medical staff can share the blame, but still.

He is a bit of a headcase and has always shown signs of lack of maturity, I mean the Willie Randolph situation in Houston is exhibit A, to say nothing about his silly dances and everything. And yes, there are players and actions that are worse, but it does say a lot for someone when they somehow play BETTER when allowed to do clownish things and not so well when trying to tone it down.

And finally the guy is clearly playing the best he's ever been because of the contract year. At his age, you have to figure he'll go back to his normal .280 self. And quite frankly, I think we've seen the best Reyes will ever be and it will be all downhill from this point forward.

Call me by my nickname here all you want, but at this rate, everyone here is kidding themselves thinking at any point of their careers, even in 2011, that Reyes is better than Jeter.

So, let's trade him when his value is clearly at his highest that it will ever be. Quite frankly, I'd like to see the Mets be on the opposite side of an Jim Fregosi deal, where the Mets fleece the hell out of a team. I don't think the Mets have had such a lopsided deal since Cone for Hearn.

[Gwreck]

Steve, you're wrong.

The two most glaring examples are:
1. The Jeter nonsense;
2. The idea that Retes is playing the best he's ever played *because* it's a contract year.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Steve pushing the Yankee agenda.

What is it about Jose Reyes that is so offensive? That he hasn't always head in the game? Citing two- and three-year-old incidents. Neither did Babe Ruth.

[stevejrogers]

Gwreck wrote: Steve, you're wrong. 2. The idea that Retes is playing the best he's ever played *because* it's a contract year.

Prove me wrong, look at the stats this year as compared to the other years where he's been healthy for an entire season.

I just had it done to me today by someone. There is NO WAY this is the norm for Jose Reyes. So the bottom line is, he is a contract year player.

And yeah, I agree Jeter is a vastly overated player thanks to the NYC market overhype, but at the same time how was Reyes ever considered a more consistant player?

Edited June 7, 2011 by Guest

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: Steve pushing the Yankee agenda. What is it about Jose Reyes that is so offensive? That he hasn't always head in the game? Citing two- and three-year-old incidents. Neither did Babe Ruth.

That's fair, but it also makes it more advantagous to trade him now and makes you wonder if this is the best that he'll ever be, and that this is a fluke spike based on it being a contract year.

[Ceetar]

SteveJRogers wrote: Edgy DC wrote: Steve pushing the Yankee agenda. What is it about Jose Reyes that is so offensive? That he hasn't always head in the game? Citing two- and three-year-old incidents. Neither did Babe Ruth. That's fair, but it also makes it more advantagous to trade him now and makes you wonder if this is the best that he'll ever be, and that this is a fluke spike based on it being a contract year.

It would've been prudent to sign him off _last year_ when he was still one of the top SS in the league. Now he's one of the top _players_ in the game. If the tail end of his contract is like 2010, we'll be asking where to put the statue.

Also, the "lack of maturity" stuff is merely fun-loving. Head in the game? He gets picked off first less than Henderson did. It's a drawback of being an aggressive player.

[stevejrogers]

Ceetar wrote: It would've been prudent to sign him off _last year_ when he was still one of the top SS in the league. Now he's one of the top _players_ in the game. If the tail end of his contract is like 2010, we'll be asking where to put the statue.

You think he still will be one of the top players in the game next year when his stats go back, drastically, to his norm and he returns to his often injured ways?

Quite frankly, I'm starting to think we are guilty of the same things that happened to Jeter over the years. Overhyping simply because the player is just plain good and plays in New York.

Hell, I've talked with several MFY fans and they wouldn't want him, even over the 2011 version of Jeter. For the same reasons I've mentioned; often injured, head case, playing over his head because its a contract year, etc.

Also, the "lack of maturity" stuff is merely fun-loving. Head in the game? He gets picked off first less than Henderson did. It's a drawback of being an aggressive player.

That's what they said about Manny. Before he started shoving senior citizens around, quiting on his team to force a trade, and oh yeah, failing a SECOND PED test.

Not saying Reyes is a Manny-in-waiting, but...ah hell, look at comments made about Roger McDowell in the thread about his incident in SF earlier this year. A "fun loving attitude" on the surface could be the sign of something darker underneath a person. Especially when you start getting into your mid-late 20s and such.

Sure, that's the definition of cherry picking right there, but, I don't know, I'd rather Reyes be someonelse's headache at this point. Especially when, as I mentioned, he played worse when asked to tone it down a bit and sulked in the Willie Randolph Houston situation.

[G-Fafif]

SteveJRogers wrote: Hell, I've talked with several MFY fans and they wouldn't want him, even over the 2011 version of Jeter. For the same reasons I've mentioned; often injured, head case, playing over his head because its a contract year, etc.

And in what fucking universe are MFY fans the ultimate arbiter of player value?

I've just talked to one Mets fan, and he wouldn't take the 2011 version of Jeter over impetigo.

[stevejrogers]

Fine, I talked with one impartial observer of the same conversation, and he said I was nuts for ever taking Reyes over Jeter (again at any point in his career) and agreed with the assertion that it would be a bad trade for the MFYs to take Reyes off of the Mets' hands.

Reyes is simply not that good, and his career stats bear that fact out, and is more of an example of the New York overhype than Jeter ever was.

[G-Fafif]

I just talked to an impartial observer who would rather expose himself to dangerous levels of pollen than the 2011 version of Jeter.

[stevejrogers]

Hey, you did ask to bring something to the table other than what MFY fans felt when it comes to a Reyes-Jeter debate.

[G-Fafif]

Who cares what straw man MFY fans/impartial observers think? Unless they're scouts or seers, their opinion is as valid or as worthless as yours, mine or anyone's.

It's not crazy (I don't think) to maintain reservations about Reyes for the money and years he'll command. If I could be convinced that a Reyes for Incredible Prospect Package trade would set the Mets on the path toward accelerated contention, and that the Mets wouldn't desperately feel the void of missing Reyes at short and at the top of the lineup, I'd be all for seriously considering it. But allusions to People You Know, just because they don't dig Reyes, aren't going to convince me.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I've talked to the neighbor's dog and he's saying all sorts of crazy shit.

[seawolf17]

Bobby V said it well the other night; if they don't have Reyes in the lineup/clubhouse/dugout/team store, they're going to be looking for a guy exactly like that for a long time.

[Gwreck]

SteveJRogers wrote: Prove me wrong, look at the stats this year as compared to the other years where he's been healthy for an entire season.

Your argument is not that he's playing well, it's that he's playing well BECAUSE it's a contract year. Those were YOUR words.

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's a fact that players perform misleadingly well in contract years. Look at Jeter.

(Like I have to ask Steve to look.)

[Guest Edgy DC]

He's had five completish seasons and two partial seasons. Those five completish ones are the five best offensive seasons from any shortstop in Mets history.

I'll take that going forward.

[Guest The Second Spitter]

seawolf17 wrote: Bobby V said it well the other night; if they don't have Reyes in the lineup/clubhouse/dugout/team store, they're going to be looking for a guy exactly like that for a long time.

I'm pretty sure the Brain's Trust understand this -- if Reyes gives the Mets a home-team discount* (in the vicinity of 10-15%) it would go against what they believe in. The only thing that will prevent this is intervention from our esteemed owner.

*Am I naive to believe that he'll give the Mets a home team discount?

[Fman99]

Don't. Trade. Reyes.

[Willets Point]

Oh man, this has turned into a Steve Jeets thread.





PS - Don't Trade Reyes.

[metsmarathon]

we're a third of the way into the season right now.

fangraphs.com has reyes as the #2 player in the majors with 3.2 WAR. he's tied with joey votto, behind only jose bautista and his silly 4.9 WAR. derek jeter sits way down there at 0.5 WAR thus far.

derek jeter is on pace for a 1.5 WAR season. if jose reyes stopped playing after the conclusion of tonights game, he'd still have been [u:22xauot7]twice [/u:22xauot7]as productive as derek jeter will be [u:22xauot7]for the entire season.

[/u:22xauot7]baseball reference doesn't really love jose reyes' defense. they have him down as the 8th best player in the NL, 19th in the majors, at 2.1 WAR. granted, they have derek jeter at 0.2 WAR. derek jeter is on pace for a 0.6 WAR season according to baseball reference. if jose reyes stopped playing after the conclusion of tonight's game, baseball reference would show him as being over [u:22xauot7]three times [/u:22xauot7]as productive as derek jeter [u:22xauot7]for the entire season[/u:22xauot7].

if jose reyes regresses to his prior ways, he's still a 5+ win player when he's healthy. the only way derek jeter is a 5 win player next year is if he starts hanging out with arod's cousin. hell, i don't think derek jeter will amass 5 wins [u:22xauot7]total [/u:22xauot7]from now until the end of his career.

i don't know who you're asking about these hypothetical jeter/reyes swaps, but it would help if they were remotely well-informed.

as a side note, i heard on the radio today that micahel kay still expects derek jeter to hit 0.300 this year, despite hitting only 0.260 at the moment. which means that he expects derek jeter to suddenly hit over 0.320 for the remainder of the year. i'd consider him neither impartial nor knowledgeable.

[Gwreck]

Edgy DC wrote: It's a fact that players perform misleadingly well in contract years.

Maybe, but Reyes is also going to be 28 years old on Saturday and finally completely healthy after some injury shortened seasons. That alone is more than enough reason for a player to put up a "misleadingly" good season.

[metsmarathon]

you generally expect healthy 28 year-olds to put up the best seasons of their respective careers.

[Gwreck]

The Second Spitter wrote: *Am I naive to believe that he'll give the Mets a home team discount?

It may not be the Mets per se that would make Jose want to give a favorable rate. His family is set up here; his kids go to school here; there's a large Dominican community here and it's easy to get to the D.R., etc. Moving to -- say, San Francisco -- takes away some of those advantages and disrupts the family. I don't think that's worth $2 or $3 M a year over a 7 year deal, but it's certainly worth something.

A second theory (perhaps more farfetched) is that Jose likes being in a place where he is automatically revered by the fans and that might be worth "something" as well.

I suppose if Cliff Lee can turn down the biggest bucks for his services and instead play where he wanted to play, Jose Reyes could too.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Willets Point wrote: Oh man, this has turned into a Steve Jeets thread. PS - Don't Trade Reyes.

Is it weird that I was kind of waiting for this?

Steve, even at his worst-- see last year-- he's a top-10 shortstop in the league. Assuming he's the injury-prone headcase that you say he is-- missing a month due to various injury/ailment, and posting a comparable-to-a-cocaine-addled-Carlos-Gomez OBA-- that's his FLOOR, man. Contract year or not-- and I'll point you to the studies deflating the contract-year phenomenon as soon as I get to a computer with a non-farty browser-- we're exploring his ceiling now.

Whoever you're talking to that wouldn't swap Reyes for Jeter right now-- regardless of avowed team affiliation, avowed level of general interest in/knowledge of baseball, or the hat they're wearing-- either doesn't exist or is talking to you in between sips of mercury. Were I you, and not consciously trolling, I'd check my drinking water's toxicity, too.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

SteveJRogers wrote: Call me by my nickname here all you want, but at this rate, everyone here is kidding themselves thinking at any point of their careers, even in 2011, that Reyes is better than Jeter.

Steve, I beg you, for your own well being. Please put down the crack pipe and seek help.