Galarraga and Joyce (split from OOTS)

[Frayed Knot]

But regardless of whether he SHOULD have been out or not, the fact is he was called safe and in order for that 27th Indian batter's AB to be ruled an error and not a hit so as to give Galarraga a no-hitter even if not the perfect game IS a matter for the scorer.
I don't see where MLB has any say in that.

[Guest Edgy DC]

What I'm saying is that the scoring of the ball as a hit be possibly be re-ruled or over-ruled.

I realize the perfect game cannot be restored. What I'm suggesting is that ruling the play an error can possibly restore the no-hitter, for what it's worth.

I don't see where MLB has any say in that.

But maybe the scorer can be persuaded to change his changeable ruling.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: But regardless of whether he SHOULD have been out or not, the fact is he was called safe and in order for that 27th Indian batter's AB to be ruled an error and not a hit so as to give Galarraga a no-hitter even if not the perfect game IS a matter for the scorer. I don't see where MLB has any say in that.

I see what you're saying. Hasn't that happened before? Haven't there been instances where a hit/error call was changed after the game was over? I'm sure there were.

[Frayed Knot]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: But regardless of whether he SHOULD have been out or not, the fact is he was called safe and in order for that 27th Indian batter's AB to be ruled an error and not a hit so as to give Galarraga a no-hitter even if not the perfect game IS a matter for the scorer. I don't see where MLB has any say in that. I see what you're saying. Hasn't that happened before? Haven't there been instances where a hit/error call was changed after the game was over? I'm sure there were.

Yes, but (as far as I know) they were changed upon further review by the same guy who originally made them, not by some suit in MLB's Park Ave offices going over his head.

[Chad ochoseis]

I didn't see anything that looked like an error on the play. Changing the scoring would create a statistical fiction for no purpose other than to give Galarraga credit for the no-hitter. I don't see the point. Joyce blew the call, but blown calls are part of the game. Changing the scoring wouldn't change the game Galarraga pitched.

If you really believe there was an error on the play, that's a different story.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Well, I believe the "fiction" was the safe call by Joyce. If the call was due to a belief that Gallaraga never had possession (I don't know if that's what he was thinking), then it would seemingly be the correct call to say the batter reached on an error.

If he meant that the runner beat the pitcher, then what's done is done. What he called could only be ruled a hit.

[Zvon]

Just saw the play.
Its ashame, because everyone (ill include Leyland here cuz he did what a manager should do in this situation),
aside from the tragically blown call, acted with pure class. From Gallaraga to Joyce.
Esp Gallaraga.
At least from what all Ive seen and heard so far.

I don't think we need replay for things like this.
Just better umps.
(Leyland said he was a great ump tho,...I wouldn't know)

[Benjamin Grimm]

Gallaraga may be able to take some consolation in the thought that he'll end up with more immortality because of this than he would have if he had actually gotten credit for the perfect game.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Gallaraga may be able to take some consolation in the thought that he'll end up with more immortality because of this than he would have if he had actually gotten credit for the perfect game.

This. I don't see the need to change the official scoring. The popular narrative of this game will be something like "the time an ump ruined the perfect game with two outs in the ninth," which is a pretty memorable story. More so, I'd argue, than "the time Armando Galarraga pitched a perfect game."

[Chad ochoseis]

Philosophical question: What's worse - this call, which cost a perfect game but didn't affect the outcome, or the same call in the same situation, but with a runner on third, the score tied, and no no-hitter on the line - i.e. the call costs the Tigers the game?

[metirish]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Gallaraga may be able to take some consolation in the thought that he'll end up with more immortality because of this than he would have if he had actually gotten credit for the perfect game.

Exactly , and he's already getting this kind of talk in the media, the way he responded during and after the game, the things he said , it's hard not to respect the person he is with the way he has handled it all. Gallaraga even said he feels worse for Joyce than he does for himself.

[seawolf17]

Chad Ochoseis wrote: Philosophical question: What's worse - this call, which cost a perfect game but didn't affect the outcome, or the same call in the same situation, but with a runner on third, the score tied, and no no-hitter on the line - i.e. the call costs the Tigers the game?

The second one, and that's obvious. Leyland would have gone completely apeshit in that instance; as upset as they were, they still realized they had a 3-0 lead to protect. If Galarraga comes unglued there and walks the next hitter, all of a sudden the tying run is at the plate.

[Met Hunter]

Galaragga showed tremendous class. I have alot more respect for his handling of the situation than I do of his ability to throw a perfect game.

[Fman99]

If Jim Joyce gets fired by MLB he can always get a job as governor of New York.

[HahnSolo]

I just remembered...was anybody else watching the bottom of the 8th of this game?

Joyce made a bad call at the bag, allowing Damon to reach base when he was pretty clearly out, leading to two insurance runs.

[u:2wh0ahaq]Two [/u:2wh0ahaq]bad calls by the same umpire in the same game

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/columns/story?id=5245642

Ian O'Connor, proving he really is out there, calls on Bud Selig to use his "best interest" powers to overturn the Joyce call.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yeah, that wouldn't be a dangerous precedent. No sir. Not at all.

[TransMonk]

Yeah, I'm sorry but if Selig were to use any "power" to overturn this call, I'd have to stop paying attention to ML baseball for a while.

It sucks that he blew the call, but Selig should be using his "power" to dicipline and refine the umpires so that this doesn't happen in the future. But it happened.

[HahnSolo]

Was the pine tar game the last time a commish "overturned" an outcome?

That decision--despite the fact that it turned an MFY win into a loss--was far more ridiculous I think, than were Selig to change this. Though I really can't see where changing the call would in any way be in the "best interest" of the game.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

That's an interesting comparison.

The difference, of course, is that one is a 'should this rule have been enforced in this way' thing verses a 'he looked safe to me' thing.

[Met Hunter]

Maybe after Selig overturns the bad call, he can review the home plate umpires wide strike zone toward the end of the game. That ump clearly knew what his place in history would be.

[Frayed Knot]

HahnSolo wrote: Was the pine tar game the last time a commish "overturned" an outcome? That decision--despite the fact that it turned an MFY win into a loss--was far more ridiculous I think, than were Selig to change this. Though I really can't see where changing the call would in any way be in the "best interest" of the game.

The 'Pine Tar' game was the league (AL office actually, not MLB as powers were distributed differently then) upholding a protest which was filed at the time by the aggrieved team over an umpire's interpretation of a rule not the reversal of a judgement call.
Throw in the fact that if this were to be overturned it would be for the sole purpose of making the game a more tidy and happy story rather than correcting a wrong done to one team which potentially affected the outcome of a game and I think this case would be much more interventionist.

[Frayed Knot]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I suspect Joyce has just worked his last Tigers game, possibly ever.

Unless you count the fact that he'll be working the plate in today's game.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I know that, if Jim Joyce's name is going to remind me of anyone, it should be James Joyce, the author of Ulysses and other works.

But my recent experience with Joyce Kilmer gets in the way, and I find myself wondering if this umpire is a man or a woman.

[metirish]

tweet from heyman via Keith Olbermann

"selig involved , will have statement today, commissioners office meeting to discuss "imperfect game"

[Frayed Knot]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I know that, if Jim Joyce's name is going to remind me of anyone, it should be James Joyce, the author of Ulysses and other works. But my recent experience with Joyce Kilmer gets in the way, and I find myself wondering if this umpire is a man or a woman.

[overly macho]Well, Joyce is reported to have cried both last night after he realized his error and again today when Galarraga brought out the lineup cards ... so, yeah, he is a girl.[/joke]

tweet from heyman via Keith Olbermann "selig involved , will have statement today, commissioners office meeting to discuss "imperfect game"

Olbermann is among those who want Selig to "fix" this (ie. overturn the call) so it's no surprise that he's passing along this info, probably in rapt anticipation.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Guest

[metirish]

Photo credit: AP Photo | Home plate umpire Jim Joyce wipes tears during the exchange of lineup cards between Cleveland Indians bench coach Tim Tolman, left, and Detroit Tigers pitcher Armando Galarraga, right before a baseball game in Detroit Thursday, June 3, 2010. Galarraga lost his bid for a perfect game with two outs in the ninth inning on a disputed call at first base by Joyce on Tuesday night.

[Benjamin Grimm]

[smg58]

I feel worse for Joyce than I do for Gallaraga. Although, like players after a bad day, sometimes the best thing to do is go right back out there.

I've never really understood the resistance to replays. I don't see why it would have been so hard before this happened to figure out that this is the kind of thing you never want to happen and it's really easy to prevent.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Understanding the resistance should be easy:

a) The game is long enough already without breaks to review film several times a game.

Replays in very many cases aren't conclusive.

c) Calls good and bad have been a part of the game forever; sublimating umpires' authority to make them won't make their calls get any better.

d) The umps get the vast majority right to begin with