That Other Hall of Fame

[G-Fafif]

Ballot for 2010 announced here. Includes five Mets, all first-timers:

� Roberto Alomar
� Kevin Appier
� David Segui
� Robin Ventura
� Todd Zeile

Other candidates from lesser teams:

Harold Baines, Bert Blyleven, Ellis Burks, Andre Dawson, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines, Shane Reynolds, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell

[metsmarathon]

blyleven, larkin, raines, alomar, and probably martinez

[duan]

Ballot for 2010 announced here. Includes five Mets, all first-timers:

� Roberto Alomar
yes
� Kevin Appier
no
� David Segui
no
� Robin Ventura
no
� Todd Zeile
no
Other candidates from lesser teams:

Harold Baines NO
Bert Blyleven YES
Ellis Burks - Ellis Burks might be my favourite non-met baseball player, he's a baseball warrior & we're it not for the fact that he only averaged less then 100 games a season he'd be in the HOF, but he did so he won't be.

Andre Dawson, NO
Andres Galarraga, NO
Pat Hentgen, NO
Mike Jackson,NO
Eric Karros, NO
Ray Lankford NO
Barry Larkin absolutely YES
Edgar Martinez, i'm verging on YES but not sure
Don Mattingly, NO
Fred McGriff I lean NO but could be swung
Mark McGwire,NO
Jack Morris, NO
Dale Murphy NO
Dave Parker NO
Tim Raine SO TOTALLY YES
Shane Reynolds NO
Lee Smith, THIS IS ONE I'M REALLY WAVERING ON
Alan Trammell YES

[Guest Kong76]

G-F:
� Roberto Alomar
� Kevin Appier
� David Segui
� Robin Ventura
� Todd Zeile <<<

Jeez, Alomar will be in the HOF someday ... but when I look at that
list with my Mets glasses on I feel like I'm looking at it from some kind
of bizzaro purgatory or something.

[ashie62]

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Jack Morris

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

� Roberto Alomar Absolutely!
� Kevin Appier Nope
� David Segui Nope
� Robin Ventura I like Robin Ventura, but he's not a Hall guy
� Todd Zeile Nope. Hit the bleeping ball six-inches higher, dammit! Still not over that.

Other candidates from lesser teams:

Harold Baines, So close!
Bert Blyleven, YES!
Ellis Burks, nope
Andre Dawson, YES
Andres Galarraga, Nope
Pat Hentgen, A good Michigander
Mike Jackson, Didn't he die this summer?
Eric Karros, Nope
Ray Lankford, Nope
Barry Larkin, YES!
Edgar Martinez, Nope
Don Mattingly, Plegh, Yankee taint
Fred McGriff, Another oh-so-close. I wouldn't object if he was elected
Mark McGwire, YES!
Jack Morris, Nope
Dale Murphy, YES!
Dave Parker, Still very close!
Tim Raines, YES! Though there is that big stain on his career. Oh, and there was a drug thing.
Shane Reynolds, Nope
Lee Smith, Another player I would not complain if elected
Alan Trammell YES!

[Guest Kong76]

mgim: Zeile Nope. Hit the bleeping ball six-inches higher, dammit! Still not over that <<<

That freakin' game just sits in my gut like a Shea parking lot
pretzel and will never fully pass.

[nymr83]

� Roberto Alomar � Kevin Appier � David Segui � Robin Ventura � Todd Zeile

I'm not sure if spitter makes it on the first ballot but he deserves to get in.
The other guys likely won't hit the minimum needed to stay on the ballot another year, I'd guess Ventura comes closest though.

mgim: Zeile Nope. Hit the bleeping ball six-inches higher, dammit! Still not over that

Or Jay Payton could RUN instead of assuming that its gone.

[Frayed Knot]

With no obvious first-year no-brainers (Alomar looked like one at age 32 then somehow managed to fall off a big enough cliff to make it questionable) it should be a good year for older borderline types.

I'd still vote Robby Alomar in but I think he's enough of a question mark in some minds to where they'll make him wait a year or two first.
My main guy in the 'should already be in' category is Tim Raines. Maybe some of the newer sabermetrics-savvy voters will push him over the edge.
I'd probably go for Alan Trammell over anyone else there - although I don't believe he's ever been close.
Next I'd lean to Bert Blyleven although I won't go to the mat for that one.
Mark McGwire deserves it but I have no problem as he stews waiting for the voters to get a better handle on the steroid era.

Both Dawson & Larkin are short IMO - too many partial seasons for both - although I opt for Dawson of the two.
Dale Murphy is Mattingly to me: six HoF seasons and then mediocrity after that.
I'm a no - at least for now - on Edgar Martinez & McGriff.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Oh for fuck's sakes, it was Timo, not Payton. Timo. TIMO!

Never forget.

Worst moment in Mets history, probably.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

5 I'd go for right now

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

[Valadius]

My ballot:

Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Barry Larkin
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Tim Raines
Alan Trammell

[Benjamin Grimm]

Alomar and Raines.

[seawolf17]

YES:
� Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven, Andre Dawson, Edgar Martinez, Mark McGwire, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Tim Raines

I was torn between Larkin and Trammell for my tenth spot, but couldn't decide, so I chose neither.

NO:
� Kevin Appier
� David Segui
� Robin Ventura
� Todd Zeile
Harold Baines, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Lee Smith, Alan Trammell

[nymr83]

5 I'd go for right now Roberto Alomar Bert Blyleven Barry Larkin Tim Raines Alan Trammell

I'm sure on Alomar, Blyleven, Raines and Trammell.
I'm pretty sure about Larkin
I wouldn't vote for anyone else eligible this year.

yeah it was Timo not Payton, did Payton make a baserunning mistake in the playoffs? i feel like i remember one but i guess not.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Oh for fuck's sakes, it was Timo, not Payton. Timo. TIMO!

Never forget.

Worst moment in Mets history, probably.[/quote:hpko81lq]

Do you ever find yourself at work kind of deep in thought and then, out of nowhere, have a disgusted, "Freaking Timo" just come out of nowhere?

I don't blame Benitez for the walk to O'Neill because they red ass worked the count pretty well. But I do blame the guy who was the luckiest guy on the team to be there screwing up that moment.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

BOOK A HOTEL ROOM FOR JULY:
Alomar (2nd-best 2B, post-Hornsby... and 2nd or 3rd biggest dick to put on a Met uniform in my lifetime)
Blyleven (GTFI, already)
Larkin (Could astonish in every facet of the game. If not for the injuries, he'd be a first-ballot guy; I think he's waiting a while)
Martinez (A REALLY good hitter-- and actually pretty good on defense, when they let him play the field)
McGwire (Well, duh)
Murphy (If he'd played corner OF, or been less proficient defensively, he'd be sitting it out.)
Raines (Will likely never make it in, for real. Damn shame.)
Trammell (If not for Ripken's presence, he's getting a LOT more love for the HOF)

BUY A TICKET WHENEVER YOU FEEL LIKE IT:
Appier
Baines
Burks
Dawson (So great at so many things. Except, you know, for the most important one in the game.)
Galarraga
Hentgen
Jackson
Karros
Lankford
Mattingly
McGriff (When I looked closer at the numbers, this was a REALLY hard exclusion.)
Morris (A reputation built on durability, a badass mustache and one great performance, really.)
Parker
Reynolds
Segui
Smith
Ventura (I didn't see a picture of 43-year-old Nolan Ryan kicking the living crap out of him anywhere in the Hall. I think that's an omission.)
Zeile (He dove right in and sucked the marrow of NYC like few other free agents the Mets have ever brought in. I'll always like him for that.)

Do you ever find yourself at work kind of deep in thought and then, out of nowhere, have a disgusted, "Freaking Timo" just come out of nowhere?[/quote:9pd3vjf9]

Any time I see a ball hit the wall in left field, and whenever I see the date "2000."

[Guest Edgy DC]

After over 150 years of MLB, Larkin is one of the top ten shortstops. In.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

If Ozzie Smith is in, then how do you keep out a guy who's almost his equal defensively, and hit at his peak-- a peak that lasted something like 12 seasons, which kind of counterbalances the injuries in my mind-- like Ryno with a much better eye?

Since most pitchers fail-- actually OR in effect-- into bullpen duty, putting in anyone but the alltime best specialists in seems a bit odd (if it's my Hall, Fingers, Sutter and MAYBE Gossage come right out). Lee Smith didn't revolutionize the position. Outside of maybe two seasons, he wasn't ever dominant. His ERA+ collection would be great from a starter... but it's iffy from a closer. About the only standout thing about him is the longevity. To my mind, that isn't quite it.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Raines (Will likely never make it in, for real. Damn shame.)[/quote:2yb22ap3]

Disagree. He'll be in and sooner rather than later.

[seawolf17]

Okay, I'm giving Larkin my tenth vote.

[Guest Swan Swan H]

If someone had suggested in 1987 that Dale Murphy not only would not be a Hall of Famer, but would not really be a serious candidate after ten years of voting, I would have suggested that they were nuts. He was my favorite non-Met during his career, and while I don't know if he measures up statistically, for my money he was one of the best players of his era for a pretty long period. I'd love to see him get in.

[batmagadanleadoff]

If someone had suggested in 1987 that Dale Murphy not only would not be a Hall of Famer, but would not really be a serious candidate after ten years of voting, I would have suggested that they were nuts. He was my favorite non-Met during his career, and while I don't know if he measures up statistically, for my money he was one of the best players of his era for a pretty long period. I'd love to see him get in.[/quote:1wj053g0]

Maybe Murphy should've quit while he was ahead. Through the end of the 1987 season, Murphy was on quite a roll; six of his last eight seasons were MVP caliber and one other was All-Star, if not MVP caliber. He was everybody's lock for the Hall. (And Gooden. And Strawberry.) But he was never quite the same after 1988, for the rest of his career churning out seasons that were more Kingman than DiMaggio -- decent though increasingly diminishing power, decent batting eye, but abysmal batting averages and on base averages. He struck out a lot, too.

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Maybe Murphy should've quit while he was ahead. Through the end of the 1987 season, Murphy was on quite a roll; six of his last eight seasons were MVP caliber and one other was All-Star, if not MVP caliber. He was everybody's lock for the Hall. (And Gooden. And Strawberry.) But he was never quite the same after 1988, for the rest of his career churning out seasons that were more Kingman than DiMaggio -- decent though increasingly diminishing power, decent batting eye, but abysmal batting averages and on base averages. He struck out a lot, too.[/quote:2sapdezx]

Makes sense. If 1987 was the last taste of Murphy in the voters' mouths he just might have gotten in.

Just about everyone else I remember from my era of fandom who seemed like a lock that late in their career but is not in was derailed by drugs, whether recreational or performance-enhancing, or a serious character flaw (Rose in particular).

[Guest Number 6]

yeah it was Timo not Payton, did Payton make a baserunning mistake in the playoffs? i feel like i remember one but i guess not.[/quote:1po9ybxa]

I remember a dribbler down the 3rd-base line that started out foul but dribbled fair before the bag, Jay not running, and being thrown out easily at first. Finer details may be wrong, and I don't remember at what point in the playoffs it was. I just remember being pissed off about it at the time.

Once Bonds gets elected, the argument against McGwire will look impossibly silly. That is, unless Bonds doesn't get elected, in which case there's a different kind of silliness to be dealt with.

[MFS62]

Roberto Alomar
Harold Baines - NO , for the same reason Edgar Martinez is a no - they were in the game for a long time because of a silly rule.
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson - no, until I am convinced otherwide
Barry Larkin
Don Mattingly - no - too few really good years, and that's a shame
Fred McGriff, Tim Raines - no(see Dawson)
Lee Smith
Alan Trammell

Later

[dgwphotography]

My Ballot:

Alomar - I really have to hold my nose for this one.
Blyleven
Larkin
Raines
Trammell

Martinez and Baines do not get in, ever. Their careers were extended due to the bastardization of baseball known as the DH....

[Vic Sage]

Martinez and Baines do not get in, ever. Their careers were extended due to the bastardization of baseball known as the DH....

that is absolute and total bullshit, at least as far as Martinez is concerned. He was one of the most deadly hitters of his generation. If there were no DH, they'd have plunked him at 1b. You can't take away points because they played in the AL. Obviously, they get no BOOST from defensive contributions, but i don't get the logic of diminishing their accomplishments because of the rules they played under and how they were used by their managers. If you have an issue with the DH, write to the commissioner. Don't penalize HOF-caliber players.

Certainly there are already 1-dimensional players in the HOF (ozzie, reggie, etc), so it is only a matter of whether your 1 dimension is of a signifcant magnitude to warrant HOF consideration. To automatically reject a player from consideration because he was primarily a DH is unfair, agenda-based, and frankly lazy.

[Vic Sage]

[u:2aqlh8pf]YES[/u:2aqlh8pf]
Roberto Alomar
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Tim Raines

[u:2aqlh8pf]BORDERLINE - YES[/u:2aqlh8pf]
Alan Trammell
Mark McGwire
Edgar Martinez

[u:2aqlh8pf]BORDERLINE - NO[/u:2aqlh8pf]
hArold Baines
Andre Dawson
Fred McGriff
Don Mattingly
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Lee Smith

[u:2aqlh8pf]NO[/u:2aqlh8pf]
Kevin Appier
David Segui
Robin Ventura
Todd Zeile
Ellis Burks
Andres Galarraga
Pat Hentgen
Mike Jackson
Eric Karros
Ray Lankford
Shane Reynolds

[batmagadanleadoff]

Martinez and Baines do not get in, ever. Their careers were extended due to the bastardization of baseball known as the DH....

that is absolute and total bullshit, at least as far as Martinez is concerned. He was one of the most deadly hitters of his generation. If there were no DH, they'd have plunked him at 1b. You can't take away points because they played in the AL. Obviously, they get no BOOST from defensive contributions, but i don't get the logic of diminishing their accomplishments because of the rules they played under and how they were used by their managers. If you have an issue with the DH, write to the commissioner. Don't penalize HOF-caliber players.

Certainly there are already 1-dimensional players in the HOF (ozzie, reggie, etc), so it is only a matter of whether your 1 dimension is of a signifcant magnitude to warrant HOF consideration. To automatically reject a player from consideration because he was primarily a DH is unfair, agenda-based, and frankly lazy.