Mets Retire Another Number!

[seawolf17]

Nolan Ryan threw only 500 innings as a Met, and we were the worst (and smallest) of his four MLB stops. And he pitched in one game in the '69 Series. Retiring his number would be insane. (Carter caught every inning in the 1986 postseason, and all but five innings in 1988.)



The argument for Carter isn't terrible. Not exhaustive enough, and not strong enough, but not as terrible as some here make it.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Nolan Ryan threw only 500 innings as a Met, and we were the worst (and smallest) of his four MLB stops. And he pitched in one game in the '69 Series. Retiring his number would be insane. (Carter caught every inning in the 1986 postseason, and all but five innings in 1988.) The argument for Carter isn't terrible. Not exhaustive enough, and not strong enough, but not as terrible as some here make it.

I wasn't advocating for Nolan's number retirement. Just wanted to show how silly "rules" are because lotsa your proposed rules would lead to #30 being retired but not #5. And Carter's case is terrible. I mean, really, what the fuck did this fucking guy do who totally sucked for three out of his five seasons here to deserve to have his number retired? I don't wanna hear about these random good things that Carter did because Steve Henderson also did a whole lot of good things for the Mets. But all of a sudden, people make a list of the good things Gary Carter did and turn that into a case for his number retirement. Because the good things Gary Carte did are so much more different than the good things any other Met did. So WTF did he do that the Mets should retire his number? Caught those postseason innings? Grote did that for two postseasons, too. And one could make a reasonable case that Grote was a greater Met than Carter, unless you take Carter's Expos years and pretend that they were Mets years instead, which is what's really going on here even no though no one wants to admit to it. And even if it turns out that Carter was a greater Met than Grote, that's not the standard -- being better than Grote -- that should get your number retired.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

My friend Martin was a Yankee fan but just loved the whole comic opera of baseball. He loved Carter because he said that every time he turned on the Mets on SportsChannel, McCarver or Kiner was announcing that "Carter's finally showing signs of coming out of his slump."



From his perspective, Carter's slump was a story/non-story for about a year and a half. They always treated like a phase of a few weeks, but it was actually an extended period of his career.



The months-long wait for his 300th homer seemed to make all the sense in the world. For other guys, it's, "It's a nice milestone, but I was just trying to make good contact there and get something started to help the team." With Gary, you got the sense he was constantly pressing for it, because it was an important asset to add to his brand.



I still like the guy, as ridiculous as he was. Hernandez was a great field captain — really everything you could ask for — but I don't think he was suited to the off-the-field stuff like taking his teammate aside and saying, "Look, you're being a real jackass."

[MFS62]

Vic Sage wrote: I've always been somewhat elitist about the numbers on the wall. It also gives us a favorable point of comparison with the yankees, IMO, who would retire a ball boy's number and call it yankee tradition. But Kooz? The first Mets game i attended was a game that Kooz pitched (and won). As a fellow lefty, i felt immediate kinship. As i grew older, I knew Seaver was the superior pitcher, but it was Kooz who dominated in the 69 series, not Tom (in 73, too). And it was Kooz, as Tom's wingman, who i always preferred, with his modest, self-effacing manor and impish good humor standing in stark contrast to the brash, arrogant, jock-fratboy persona of Tom terrific. I was more upset when they traded Jerry away than the Seaver trade, though i understood the relative difference in the impact on the team's fortunes. But i was happy for Jerry when he won 20 for the Twins that first season after the trade. And i was happy to see him go out strong, giving the Phillies a solid season when he was in his 40s. So hell, yes, put that 36 on the freakin' wall. He was more of a Met than a roided up merc like Piazza, or a 2-season wonder like Carter. Welcome home, Jerry. It' been a long time. Put your feet up. stay awhile.

This! Every single word of it.

Later

[batmagadanleadoff]

Jeez,.I don't wanna beat this horse to death but if Carter deserves to have his number retired, than so does Jon Matlack. And Jake DeGrom. The Mets would need to announce right now that as soon as Jake retires, his number's going up on that wall. His Mets career is already at least two or three times better than Carter's. Every time I hear this nonsense about retiring Carter's number, I go off like this. It's like my personal Susquehanna Hat Company.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I love the reference to the Susquehanna Hat Company. And I agree with you about Gary Carter, too. Retiring his number makes absolutely no sense. He deserves it as an Expo (if there were still Expos) but not as a Met.

[kcmets]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=23041 time=1569533033 user_id=68]It's like my personal Susquehanna Hat Company.

[Centerfield]

=kcmets post_id=23073 time=1569549683 user_id=53]
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=23041 time=1569533033 user_id=68]It's like my personal Susquehanna Hat Company.

[Guest 41Forever]

I don't think retiring a number is just about the number of great seasons or compiling stats. Casey Stengel is on the wall, and his .302 winning percentage is the worst among Mets managers -- by far. But in Casey's case there was obviously value to the franchise that is not reflected by stats alone. That's the argument for Gary Carter.



I'd like it if Carter's number was retired, but it's not a huge issue for me. I think the window to do so has closed. He's in the Mets Hall and the team wore a memorial patch when he passed, and those are very nice honors. I'm not sure who made the decision to not issue the number to other players. That seems like a half step. Make the commitment, or issue it.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I say issue it. If it was up to me, I'd issue number 8 to every player next season, just to finally bury this issue.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Casey Stengel was a manager and a good will ambassador. And I'm not even sure in what order. A player's got to play his way to a retired number.. Apples and oranges. No one here can even articulate WHY Carter should have his number retired other than that this is nothing more than fanboy worship gone haywire. He smiles a lot. Because Casey's number is retired. Because he caught the postseason innings. (°Hello Travis d'Arnaud!) Because be was a great Expo. Can anyone here tell me where Bagel Street is?

[batmagadanleadoff]

=41Forever post_id=23097 time=1569591055 user_id=69] But in Casey's case there was obviously value to the franchise that is not reflected by stats alone. That's the argument for Gary Carter.

[G-Fafif]

Mets have announced Saturday, June 13, as Kooz Day. 36 gets officially retired prior to the 4:10 game vs. WSH.

[Edgy MD]

That will leave Mickey Callaway as the last 36 in team history.

[G-Fafif]

A thorough tour of Kooz's career, with Kevin Czerwinski guiding No. 36 from its commencement to its conclusion.

Koosman won went 21-10 with a 2.69 ERA in 1976 but this time Jones [22-14, 2.74 ERA] won the Cy Young Award. “'76 was my best year as far as concentration,” Koosman said. “My dad died during Spring Training and it was a big shock to me. He was my number one fan. We were very close and when he died my concentration, it was like his spirit was on my right shoulder every pitch I made. I was never able to get that deep concentration like that again. The last 10 years I pitched I could tell you every pitch I threw in order, that was the kind of concentration I had but '76 was way above that. “I thought I deserved the Cy Young but it's out of my control. Seaver had won the year before and the same thing happened with Rookie of the Year. I know there were some writers that didn't think one organization should win two in a row. I've heard that comment.”

https://ballnine.com/2021/08/27/kooz/https://ballnine.com/2021/08/27/kooz/

[stevejrogers]

Jerry Koosman as a Met on cardboard



https://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosmanhttps://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosman

[Marshmallowmilkshake]

Jerry Koosman as a Met on cardboard https://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosmanhttps://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosman

Good find!



I like how the 1970, 1973 and 1974 have virtually the same pose, but definitely taken at different times and places.

[stevejrogers]

Jerry Koosman as a Met on cardboard https://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosmanhttps://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosman Good find!

Well, that was curated by myself on that site

I like how the 1970, 1973 and 1974 have virtually the same pose, but definitely taken at different times and places.

Just noticed the same with the ‘78 and ‘79 card. Rare shot of Koosman on a card wearing the orange and blue shirt and sleeve collars.



Way too many Koosman as a Phillie cards exist for my tastes BTW. Thankfully no post career card of him

as a Twin, White Sox or Phillie exist, yet anyway…at least according to that site

[MFS62]

I recall that every year for his entire career, Who's Who In Baseball used the same picture of Jerry.

In the neck-up shot, he has a silly grin and he is looking up to his left.

Even though he became one of the best pitchers in the game, they never changed that picture.



Later

[batmagadanleadoff]

Jerry Koosman as a Met on cardboard https://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosmanhttps://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosman Good find! Well, that was curated by myself on that site I like how the 1970, 1973 and 1974 have virtually the same pose, but definitely taken at different times and places. Just noticed the same with the ‘78 and ‘79 card. Rare shot of Koosman on a card wearing the orange and blue shirt and sleeve collars. Way too many Koosman as a Phillie cards exist for my tastes BTW. Thankfully no post career card of him as a Twin, White Sox or Phillie exist, yet anyway…at least according to that site

What? No Typewriters?



[FIMG=444]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51408985008_47251dfb1e_k.jpg[/FIMG]



[FIMG=444]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51409691450_eb8d605235_k.jpg[/FIMG]



[FIMG=444]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51408984998_1567b4eff7_b.jpg[/FIMG]

[seawolf17]

This is a *great* Kooz/Seaver story that I'd never heard before.



https://www.facebook.com/SNY/posts/5053313348029026https://www.facebook.com/SNY/posts/5053313348029026

[batmagadanleadoff]

A thorough tour of Kooz's career, with Kevin Czerwinski guiding No. 36 from its commencement to its conclusion. Koosman won went 21-10 with a 2.69 ERA in 1976 but this time Jones [22-14, 2.74 ERA] won the Cy Young Award. “'76 was my best year as far as concentration,” Koosman said. “My dad died during Spring Training and it was a big shock to me. He was my number one fan. We were very close and when he died my concentration, it was like his spirit was on my right shoulder every pitch I made. I was never able to get that deep concentration like that again. The last 10 years I pitched I could tell you every pitch I threw in order, that was the kind of concentration I had but '76 was way above that. “I thought I deserved the Cy Young but it's out of my control. Seaver had won the year before and the same thing happened with Rookie of the Year. I know there were some writers that didn't think one organization should win two in a row. I've heard that comment.” https://ballnine.com/2021/08/27/kooz/https://ballnine.com/2021/08/27/kooz/

This quote's for FK:

Koosman doesn't watch much baseball these days, preferring golf and football. He said he doesn't have the patience to watch a baseball game any longer. “I was a fast pitcher,” he said. “My games averaged 2:10, 2:15. Today you're in the fourth or fifth inning at that point and it just wears you out. Everyone has gloves and guards they adjust and the pitchers take too long. It's just slow all the way around in most games.”

[stevejrogers]

What? No Typewriters?

Oddly enough, there is a user list on that site of cards showing embraces. Could have sworn a card existed of the Jerrys and Ed Charles on the mound following the final out of the ‘69 series.



Must have been a creation of yours or Z's that I was thinking of. Ended up sending the creator of that list a 1994 Spectrum Collectables card featuring Koosman with him jumping into Grote's arm in the background of Koosman's profile.



https://www.tcdb.com/Images/Cards/Baseball/86181/86181-6228706RepFr.jpg>

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying that that web site also hosts DIY or custom cards from individuals, in addition to the licensed cards one would expect to find?

[stevejrogers]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=75817 time=1630195930 user_id=68]
I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying that that web site also hosts DIY or custom cards from individuals, in addition to the licensed cards one would expect to find?

[G-Fafif]

Jerry and I have a little chat.

[Frayed Knot]

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=75810 time=1630194408 user_id=68]
This quote's for FK:



Koosman doesn't watch much baseball these days, preferring golf and football. He said he doesn't have the patience to watch a baseball game any longer.



“I was a fast pitcher,” he said. “My games averaged 2:10, 2:15. Today you're in the fourth or fifth inning at that point and it just wears you out. Everyone has gloves and guards they adjust and the pitchers take too long. It's just slow all the way around in most games.”

[Ceetar]

That's an old man yells at cloud reason anyway. he wouldn't be watching the games if they were 2:40 either. I mean, he cited golf and football for gods sakes.

[kcmets]

How Jerry Koosman can invoke a thought about old men shouting

at clouds makes no sense to me. I doubt he raises his voice often,

and certainly not towards the sky.

[nymr83]

=Ceetar post_id=75907 time=1630290837 user_id=102]
That's an old man yells at cloud reason anyway. he wouldn't be watching the games if they were 2:40 either. I mean, he cited golf and football for gods sakes.