Centerfield

What would an archive be without an entry from our old friend. Some really good stuff in here. Widey attempts to restrain Ms. Met from exercising her Constitutional right to an opinion! Sal claims to think rationally for 30 minutes a week! marathon refuses to kiss CF! All in one thread! Ms Met II Clint Hurdle — C, OF, 3B, 1983, 1985, 1987 Posts: 222 (12/14/01 7:22 pm) So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... ...eating my breakfast and reading the Times this morning when I practically gagged on my toast! I was scanning past all the "gee, look, Giambi is finally a @#%$" crap on the sports page and I spy not one but TWO articles complaining about how the @#%$ and METS are spoiling baseball for the rest of the teams and their fans by using all of their various cable contract revenue to snap up all the high priced, top of the line talent. One article I could've dismissed as the ramblings of a writer who obviously hadn't done his homework, but TWO articles?! What gives? Have these people been asleep for the last decade or so, or are they really that annoyed by the Alomar deal? Last time I looked, with the exception of the Piazza deal, the Mets hadn't made much of a move in terms of big name guys. And I was under the impression that it was the @#%$ with all of the lucrative cable deals. Which is why all we poor schlub Met fans have to pay extra to get FSNY. We've got Fred "the miser" Wilpon doling out money with an eyedropper, in case no-one had noticed, while Mr. @#%$ (god, I love that censor stuff!) dishes out millions right and left whenever the feeling hits him. Steve Phillips steals two sure fire future HOF'ers from teams who are trying desperately to offload salary and suddenly we're the bad guys? Maybe it's just me, but I don't get it. Steve Phillips did his job, it's not his fault the other GM's were sleeping. As far as I can tell, the Mets have no reason to feel guilty. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LF Octavio Dotel — SP, RP, 1999 Posts: 117 (12/14/01 7:46 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... We've got Fred "the miser" Wilpon doling out money with an eyedropper Not only does this continue this fantasy you have where Doubleday is responsible for all the good and Wilpon for all the bad - but $95mil must come from one helluva an eydropper. Considering that, plus the claim that the organization lost money on that payroll last year; what level of would you consider sufficient? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Clint Hurdle — C, OF, 3B, 1983, 1985, 1987 Posts: 224 (12/15/01 1:21 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... You left out a word, LF, what level of WHAT would I consider sufficient? As for our ownership, it's not my intention to paint Nelson Doubleday as some kind of patron saint. God knows, he's made his mistakes along the way and he's been in the background more than the foreground in recent years. Still, imo Fred Wilpon has put his own interests ahead of the team's more often than not and I certainly wouldn't say that the Mets have been major players in terms of signing big name guys. Certainly not to the extent that the @#%$ have, and certainly not enough to deserve being lumped in with the boys from the Bronx for a collective Bronx cheer from the rest of baseball. I just found those articles a little off the mark. $95 million payroll or not, we certainly haven't been standing in anyone's way in regard to signing big name players. Just ask the Rangers, to whom we practically handed A-Rod on a silver platter (or platinum, considering the size of his contract). The majority of the really big money deals in baseball in recent years have NOT involved the Mets: ARod, Griffey, Mussina, Hampton, Giambi. The top eight guys in salary were listed in another thread here yesterday, at least two, if not three, of those eight are @#%$. Not ONE of them is a Met. Wilpon may be spending the money, but he sure ain't spending it on the top tier. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LF Alex Escobar — OF, 2001 Posts: 121 (12/15/01 4:51 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... what level of WHAT would I consider sufficient? Payroll. Wilpon may be spending the money, but he sure ain't spending it on the top tier. Yes he is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Tony Phillips — OF, 1998 Posts: 241 (12/15/01 7:21 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Payroll - that's what I figured. $95 million is about right considering the market we're in. I've got no problem with the amount of the current budget, just with how Wilpon deigns to spend it. Uh, other than Piazza and now Alomar, who have we got on the team who would be considered a top tier player? I can't think of anyone, except maybe Al Leiter, but I'm not even sure about Al anymore. Is Fonzie considered top tier? If so, he still ranks as a bargain, at least until we start talking contract extension. And going into this off-season, Steve Phillips came right out and stated that we couldn't go for any big name FA's, all of our moves had to be done through trade. And even in the trades, aside from Alomar, all of the potential objects and all of the guys we've picked up have been something other than "top tier". In the meantime, Fat George and his stooges have been snapping up all of the big names right and left. I still don't see how we manage to rank with them on this score. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LF Alex Escobar — OF, 2001 Posts: 122 (12/15/01 8:10 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... I have much trouble following you at times. * You say that we're handing out money with an eyedropper - then say that the current level is about right - then continually blame only Wilpon for not spending it right (even though it's not him that spends it). There's no way we could have gone after "big name guys" this year without first clearing payroll; ie. making trades. (That $95 figure's about right - remember) In the last week, SP has improved the team while keeping payroll similar to, or maybe slighty below (w/Justice gone), last year's figure (when they supposedly lost money). From this point on, it's a question whether you add missing pices through the FA route - depending on whether how those targets are priced; OR via trades - depending on what the human & dollar prices are on that front. The owners come in if/when SP says that he believes certain player X is 'getable' and will make all the difference but will push the payroll to level Y. According to both owners, the decision to green-light such a move has always been made jointly. (on edit) if your point is that we're not spending like the @#%$ then you're right, nobody is, because nobody else has their revenues. Edited by: LF at: 12/15/01 7:18:07 pm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Tony Phillips — OF, 1998 Posts: 242 (12/16/01 2:33 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... (on edit) if your point is that we're not spending like the @#%$ then you're right, nobody is, because nobody else has their revenues. That's precisely my point - I thought I'd made that clear from the beginning, guess I wasn't as clear as I thought. What I didn't understand is why the writers of the columns in question were lumping us in with the @#%$ as dominating the market when it's patently untrue. And for the record - I have no problem with what SP has done this off-season. Frankly, I think he often takes more flak than he deserves given what he's been able to do and the restrictions under which he normally has to operate. This off-season ranks right up there with mid-season '98 when he pulled off the Piazza coup. As for the owners - I'm not sure that much is done "jointly" with those two, no matter what they'd have us think, because they've never been able to agree on much. Whatever the case, I do think that with $95 million - a very reasonable sum - to work with, they could've gotten more for their money. There have been some questionable financial moves made in recent years and the majority of them can be traced to Fred Wilpon's desire to fund a new stadium. At least, that's the chorus that keeps getting repeated every time a "penny pinching" type move is made. If that's not the case, as I've indicated in this and other threads, I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wide BeeGee Stanley Jefferson — OF, 1986 Posts: 143 (12/16/01 4:42 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... There have been some questionable financial moves made in recent years and the majority of them can be traced to Fred Wilpon's desire to fund a new stadium. Like what? At least, that's the chorus that keeps getting repeated every time a "penny pinching" type move is made. Chorus? What are you talking about? If that's not the case, as I've indicated in this and other threads, I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong. Guilty until proven innocent, I see. Why don't you just admit you're out of your depth on this subject UNTIL you can prove something? Edited by: Wide BeeGee at: 12/16/01 3:43:38 pm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Tony Phillips — OF, 1998 Posts: 246 (12/17/01 10:54 am) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Uh, with all due respect YGB, I've stated several times that my take on Mr. Wilpon is my opinion and the last time I looked I was entitled to my own opinion, whether or not you and others here agree with it. As I said, I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong, but, with the exception of bill metsiac, all anyone here has done is challenge my right to my opinion rather than offer any proof to counter it. If you want to prove me wrong, be my guest, but stop trying to deny me the right to my own opinion. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ metsmarathon Kevin Brown, RP, 1990 Posts: 198 (12/17/01 11:10 am) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... just to jump in here, but im more comfortable with the burden of proof being on the one with the differing opinion. or really on the one with the opinion. otherwise it gets too easy to just say, 'thats my opinion, and it doesnt matter why i made it, or for whatever willy-nilly reasons.' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Gene Walter — RP, 1987-1988 Posts: 250 (12/17/01 11:25 am) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Well, I'm sorry mm, but I don't have a list of names and dates or anything else that anyone here would likely accept as proof. I know that I've read many things over the last several years which have stated that Wilpon was focused on the new stadium and I know that I've watched this team go the budget route instead of going after big names like ARod, Gonzalez, Giambi, etc. will little real explanation except for Wilpon's continued chorus of "we're sticking to our present budget". I also know that all the reports around the time of the Piazza signing had Nelson Doubleday pushing Steve Phillips to get it done and Fred Wilpon balking at the cost. Obviously, any or all of these reports could be wrong, and I could be wrong for believing them, but as I said, I have yet to see anything to the contrary. If you want anything more specific, I'm afraid I can't furnish it, which I'm sure makes me wrong as far as most folks are concerned. So be it. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Edgy DC II ezOP Posts: 669 (12/17/01 12:20 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Nobody gave A-Rod to the Rangers on any kind of platter. They are paying dearly for him and will continue to. They can have him. Walter, how come you let him hit it? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wide BeeGee Allen Watson — RP, SP, 1999 Posts: 153 (12/17/01 12:28 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... That's all well and good except very little in your statement here is true: I know that I've read many things over the last several years which have stated that Wilpon was focused on the new stadium So? and I know that I've watched this team go the budget route instead of going after big names like ARod, Gonzalez, Giambi, etc. will little real explanation except for Wilpon's continued chorus of "we're sticking to our present budget". First of all you've already said in this thread that 95 million is appropriate for this team. How is that the "budget route"? How do you know we won't go after Gonzalez? More importanly, how do you know we NEED to? Giambi wasn't pursued because we don't need a first baseman/DH nor a bidding war with the @#%$. Is that not a "real" explanation? Arod cost too much, but why not ask Doubleday to be sure. I also know that all the reports around the time of the Piazza signing had Nelson Doubleday pushing Steve Phillips to get it done and Fred Wilpon balking at the cost. Yet, we went and did it anyway and ... imagine ... we find that money's tight. It's possible that Wilpon felt that spreading out that sum over several players would be the better option. Using your argument it would seem that Doubleday is the one saying "Who cares about winning, we have a star attraction." Obviously, any or all of these reports could be wrong, and I could be wrong for believing them, but as I said, I have yet to see anything to the contrary. Yes you have. You've seen dozens of challenges to your line of thought on this subject from a number of reasonable people. You should also be aware of the oft-repeated statements from SP that Fred could give him flexibility in the event he needed it ~ which to this point, SP hasn't yet. If you want anything more specific, I'm afraid I can't furnish it, which I'm sure makes me wrong as far as most folks are concerned. So be it. You're wrong not because you can't produce proof -- you're wrong because you made up your mind absent of it, or at least without considering all that is available. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Norrin Radd Alberto Castillo — C, 1995-1998 Posts: 101 (12/17/01 12:31 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... what da wide man said... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kasey62 Andy Hassler — RP, SP, 1979 Posts: 232 (12/17/01 12:33 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Ms. Met's gonna gag on her toast again when she reads this Well I just wanna have some fun I probably won't see no money I just wanna have some fun 'fore they throw me in the sanitarium ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Gene Walter — RP, 1987-1988 Posts: 253 (12/17/01 3:00 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... I'm not gonna gag, KC, 'cause I ain't reading it. I've said what I have to say, I don't expect YGB or many others here to accept it. I should've known better than to open my mouth in the first place, but I thought this was a board built on the notion of respect and open-mindedness. Guess I should've known better! And edgy - yes, you're right, the Rangers payed dearly for ARod and I'm not shedding tear one over that whole episode, I only offered it as one of many instances where the Mets were generally thought to be front-runners for a big name FA and blew off the opportunity for whatever reason. I was challenged to give proof - that was as good as I could give. I'm sorry if it doesn't live up to the standards of some here. Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kasey62 Tony Phillips — OF, 1998 Posts: 244 (12/17/01 3:11 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Hey, no pouting, Edgy edicted it last week. Well I just wanna have some fun I probably won't see no money I just wanna have some fun 'fore they throw me in the sanitarium ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Gene Walter — RP, 1987-1988 Posts: 256 (12/17/01 3:32 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Pouting? Who's pouting? Believe me, KC, you'd know if I was pouting...I pout much better than that! I was annoyed - I don't suppose edgy's got an edict about THAT, does he? Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Willets Point Ray Searage — RP, 1981 Posts: 332 (12/17/01 3:34 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Ms. Met...deeeeeeep cleansing breath. In the nose, out the mouth. Reeeeelax. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Wide BeeGee Fernando Viña — 2B, 3B, SS, OF, 1994 Posts: 161 (12/17/01 3:35 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... And thank you for showing the "respect and open-mindedness" it would take to address the points. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ms Met II Gene Walter — RP, 1987-1988 Posts: 258 (12/17/01 3:38 pm) Re: So I'm sittin' there minding my own business... Thanks, O, I really needed that! The funny thing is, I was in a pretty good mood this morning, until I checked in here. Usually visiting here makes me feel BETTER, not worse. I'll keep working on those deep breaths.... Like soldier's in the winter's night with a vow to defend No retreat and baby...NO SURRENDER!

In August of 2002, the Mets were mired in a terrible losing streak, where, not only were they not winning, they never held a lead in any of the games. In the midst of an IGT, slugger1138 mourned the loss of a short-lived lead: slugger1138 407) Tony Tarasco ? OF, 2002 Posts: 940 (8/22/02 4:51 pm) Memories of the lead It was fun while it lasted. "Damn it boss, I like you too much not to say it. You've got everthing except one thing: madness! A man needs a little madness, or else...." Mmmmmmmmmm. Beer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ soupcan 460) Dick Smith ? OF, 1B, 1963- 1964 Posts: 418 (8/22/02 5:13 pm) Re: Memories of the lead It was a good, solid lead. I for one am sorry to see it go. When will be able to get another lead like that one anytime soon? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Centerfield II 301) Tony Phillips ? OF, 1998 Posts: 2004 (8/22/02 5:29 pm) Reply Re: Memories of the lead Good lord soupcan...we just lost the lead and now you're already thinking of getting another one? Have some respect will you? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ CookieMom 64) Randy Myers ? RP, 1985-1989 Posts: 5740 (8/22/02 5:33 pm) Reply Re: Memories of the lead Next time let's shoot for a 2 run lead. Baby steps... No Good Deed Goes Unpunished! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Norrin Radd 346) Jerrod Riggan ? RP, 2000- 2001 Posts: 1559 (8/22/02 5:35 pm) Reply Re: Memories of the lead That Can... he's always on the make for his next lead. Such promiscuity. No loyalty to his last lead... No constancy. oops. sorry. i mean't "constancy". i for one, will sit and bear witness to our last lead until the Earth stops turning on its axis. "The summer sun, high in a baseball sky, shines like diamonds..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Edgy DC II ezOP Posts: 6255 (8/22/02 10:39 pm) Reply Re: Memories of the lead That's it. Misuse the word until it has no meaning whatsoever. Walter, how come you let him hit it?

I barely blinked when I saw the thread title. My heart skipped a beat when I read "Jose" rather than "Jorge" upon first glance.

="metsmarathon"]relevant precedent It's funny. Editor: Find me relevant precedent. Reporter: How about this case from a different jurisdiction with a different set of circumstances? Editor: Perfect!

Lino is a Spanish name. It's either: LEEN-OM-IT-ER or LEEN-O-MEET-ER You can be so culturally insensitive sometimes.

I heard that he didn't read the contract because he crumpled it up and threw it at his agent thinking it was the ball.

Rockin' Doc wrote: Steve, the inquirer's name is MetFanLA. What do you suppose the odds are that he lives in New York metropolitan area? I'm dying here.

What an awful inning. It reminded me of the Chan Ho Park inning.

Well there's always Art Howe.

Talk about a complete suck-ass day in baseball. My son sleeps in the afternoon, but because of the late start, rather than catching the Mets game, I had to settle for Yanks-Mariners and Braves-Dodgers. During the Yanks telecast, I watched the M's get shut out, then nearly puked watching the crowd go crazy when Asshead announced he was returning. Then in the Braves game, I watch Grady Little leave in his reliever, who clearly has nothing, long enough for the guy to give up 5 runs and the lead. It's getting to the point that I wonder if Grady knows he's allowed to make pitching changes in the middle of an inning. Mets lose. Beltran scratched, Alou still not available. Suckass suckass suckass.

I'm lazier. I'll take David Segui.

Pelfrey 1 Castro 1 Chavez 1

Rotblatt wrote: ]OK, I'm jumping in with a prediction: 6-9, 4.46. Sounds plausible. Kind of perfect, in fact, so I might steal it as my own. And here's my prediction for the post season: 0-2, 5.83. What post-season?

Easley 4 Beltran 2 LoDuca 1 Heilman 1 Glavine 1 Feliciano 1

Perez 4 Reyes 1 Chavez 1 Wright 1 Green 1 Smith 1 Wagner 1

iramets wrote: Lucky for La Russa that he wasn't killed by a drunk driver. Man, THAT would have been an uncomfortable conversation. Turns out he was.

Couple of thoughts... No one has really explained whether or not that tow truck had presented a danger by being stopped in the driving lane. Was it in plain sight? Or was it around a curve or over an embankment? Shouldn't they have put out some sort of warnings for an oncoming car? Hancock being drunk...I wonder how that will effect this stories about him. If he had survived and killed someone else, he would be villain. Instead, because he died, his jersey hangs in the dugouts and he gets black armbands. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, just that it's interesting how the consequences can change how an act is viewed.

That 2-2 pitch to LoDuca was strike 3. Easley was out on that chopper to short in Washington. Always good to have a little luck fall your way.

Eric Byrnes seems really scared of whatever he's running from.

You're lying. Alay Soler was never the pitcher of the month. I don't believe it.

Vic Sage wrote: This officially ends the IGT. Please discuss today's game further on the main forum. That is all. Respectfully, The Thread Police Maybe I'll start a thread with my Thoughts on the Game.

Gamecast is still waiting for the bottom of the 9th. Wonder what's taking so long.

How cool would it be if Oliver Perez were to be really good.

4k's in a row. 6 more to Seaver.

Frayed Knot wrote: If this is a contest to see who can leave more runners on base then we're kickin' ass!! Scored two, but more importantly, left three on base.