FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

[Guest 41Forever]

But since 2011, the team has hosted an All-Star Game, a World Series and the team made the postseason a second time, so it’s also possible his views have changed over six years.

[Centerfield]

Possible. But not likely. But I'll humor this.

Let's say over the last six years his eyes were opened to the truth and his views did change. If that were true, and he wrote "Hey guys, I know what I said in the past, and it turns out I was dead wrong. The Wilpons are great guys. Here's why..." then I'd listen to him. Hear him out. Maybe he really did have a change of heart.

But that's not what he did. Instead, he:

1. Never acknowledged his "Sell the Team" past. Completely ignored it. Pretended that never happened.

2. Attempted to re-write his philosophy as if he felt this way all along.

We're a group that's devoted to the Mets, and that's not going to change. Call it blind devotion if you will. That's sports fandom in general.

Blind devotion? Really? Look, there are tons of guys out there who view fandom that way. None of them start a brand with "Sell the Team" shirts. None.

3. Characterized any attempts at change as fruitless.

Would I love for the payroll to rise and more superstars to land in Queens? Absolutely. Sadly, some things are just out of our control

Would I like mass shootings to stop? Do I think it's bad our children are getting shot in school? Absolutely. Sadly, some things are just out of our control

4. Re-cast blame on a much safer target.

There is still time for Sandy to make some moves. Let's hope he does more of that, and less of his comic relief with reporters.

Why are we even mad at the Wilpons? It's Sandy. He's been too busy working on his comic routine. That's the dude who needs to get his shit together.

5. Shirked responsibility...

Not once have I claimed to be the "voice of Mets fans." No one should tell you how to spend your time and/or money.

Wait, what's your tagline?

For the fans, by the fans

Right.

6. ...then just flat out lied.

No one should tell you how to spend your time and/or money.

SELL THE 7 LINE

[Centerfield]

And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story.

Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line.

[nymr83]

Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line.

OR he never hated the Wilpons, saw anti-Wilpon merchandising as his foothold into the T-shirts marketplace, and pivoted into the more stable "team approved" market when he saw the chance.

In other words, maybe he is just a guy trying to make $$ and his 'views' on the Wilpons are just whatever is convenient.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line.

The licensing deal came so so much later. He hadn't been selling the 'sell the team' shirt for years before that. the brand changed. Darren doesn't suddenly like the Wilpons, but he did go from fooling around with the t-shirt thing to fully investing in it. And he has addressed it, multiple times. He was a never a rebel leader making shirts in rebellion, it was just a shirt someone suggested, he made it, and they moved on to focus the brand into something else. The same applies to the 'voice of the fans' thing. He's NOT the voice of some fan advocacy group looking out for everyone's best interest, he's just the founder and owner of a t-shirt company that morphed into a group outing close-knit group thing. Some of it, much of it, more out of his control than anything.

The licensing deal is with MLB though, not the Mets. (And New Era?) I guess they could pull strings, and certainly pull the kiosk, but it's not like they're Mets employees. It's a loud, vocal, and organized group of Mets fans, but that's it. one group.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Who the hell even cares? I mean, what the hell is the point of all of this? That the Wilpons are OK because the 7Line Guy sez so? Maybe we should ask Jeff Wilpon's mom what she thinks of the Wilpons, next. How even old is the 7Line Guy? Twenty? What? His shilling opinion counts more than yours because he sells Mets t-shirts?

And this is some more high comedy nonsense:

41Forever wrote: But since 2011, the team has hosted an All-Star Game....

I'm so impressed. It only took them about 50 years to host one. Has any team gone longer? I mean, Mets fans were born and died without the chance to ever see their Mets host an ASG. If you were honest, and not trying to spin things, your post would say, "since 1964, the Mets hosted an ASG. 49 years after 1964".

Edited December 20, 2017 by Guest

[ashie62]

Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line.

I liked your analysis in your prior post.

7 line certainly appears to be self serving BS artists.

Well done.

[Centerfield]

Nymr83 wrote: Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line. OR he never hated the Wilpons, saw anti-Wilpon merchandising as his foothold into the T-shirts marketplace, and pivoted into the more stable "team approved" market when he saw the chance. In other words, maybe he is just a guy trying to make $$ and his 'views' on the Wilpons are just whatever is convenient.

So self-serving whichever way the wind blows? Lol. I think my characterization is actually kinder.

[Centerfield]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Who the hell even cares? I mean, what the hell is the point of all of this?

The point of all this is that I’m seeing how much control the Wilpons have over the conversation. They started SNY and suddenly they have control over the message from the TV media. That station partners with the Daily News and suddenly that outlet is compromised. They bought Metsblog, gave the 7 Line a kiosk and a license, and now those previously outspoken critics all fall in line.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Centerfield wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Who the hell even cares? I mean, what the hell is the point of all of this? The point of all this is that I’m seeing how much control the Wilpons have over the conversation. They started SNY and suddenly they have control over the message from the TV media. That station partners with the Daily News and suddenly that outlet is compromised. They bought Metsblog, gave the 7 Line a kiosk and a license, and now those previously outspoken critics all fall in line.

That sucks. But that's nothing new. That's the way it is in every sports market. You think you're going to find harsh and sustained criticism of the Yankees on their Yankees channel? The GOP has state TV in Fox News and Sinclair. You ever try watching FOX? I do once in a while just to keep an open mind. I can't last more than seven minutes on that channel. It's non-stop science fiction. And that's a much more serious problem than whether the 7Line Guy is a Wilpon shill or not (he is).

[Guest 41Forever]

Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line.

Wow. Drawn to liars? I think you’re doing the polarization thing.

I don’t think he’s a liar and bullshit artist because he sold a t-shirt in 2011.

This might be hard to articulate. But I can kind of relate. When you are covering something from the outside and then see things from the inside, it’s very different. There are a lot of things that you didn’t see before, and you can see why this thing might have happened or that thing might have happened. I used to be kind of rigid and see things in black and white. I see a lot of gray these days. A lot of gray.

He was selling a t-shirt — one of many designs — as an outsider. He’s probably seeing things differently now that he’s probably on the fringes of being an insider.

I don’t hate the Wilpons. I wish they’d do some things differently, and some things really, really differently. But I don’t know why they are doing things. Which is why I urged them to open up a little.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Guest

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Who the hell even cares? I mean, what the hell is the point of all of this? That the Wilpons are OK because the 7Line Guy sez so? Maybe we should ask Jeff Wilpon's mom what she thinks of the Wilpons, next. How even old is the 7Line Guy? Twenty? What? His shilling opinion counts more than yours because he sells Mets t-shirts?

No, the point is, and Darren's point, is that his opinion means basically nothing and asking him to chime in (and let's be honest, you/they're asking him to chime in with a very specific message that may or may not be his own. But I guess that's okay if he's not the owner right?) because you want him on your side in some fan revolt thing is not his game.

[Ceetar]

Also, don't worry, the Trump tax breaks will undoubtedly benefit the Wilpons immensely and they'll obviously reinvest those savings in the Mets, just like all the big corporations will reinvest in their product and employees.

[Centerfield]

Steve Phillips comes to the defense of the Wilpons.

In doing so basically admits they diverted Mets money to private debt.

https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/steve-phillips-fred-wilpon-1.15531742

[Ceetar]

I know he ran the team 15 years ago, but I really don't want to hear anything from Steve Phillips, especially not this tongue bathing.

[Centerfield]

I think on that I can agree with you!

But I'm glad that there is conversation. Maybe this will spur some spending. Plenty of time left in this off-season to do some damage.

[A Boy Named Seo]

Fangraphs on YOUR 2018 Mets:

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-mets-shouldnt-blow-this-opportunity/

Last year, the Mets opened the season with a $155 million payroll. That might seem substantial. In one way, it was: the 2017 payroll represented a $20 million increase from 2016, which itself represented a $30 million increase over 2015, which was also a $15 million increase over 2014. A steadily rising payroll in a vacuum, seems positive. Once you consider how cheaply the Mets were run after the Madoff scandal, though — and factor in the New York market, the extra television revenue, and an average attendance of roughly 2.5 million fans — that $155 million payroll isn’t so great. The Mets nearly reached that mark back in 2009. While MLB payrolls have increased more than 50% over that time, the Mets’ spending figures trended downward for much of that interval. The club also traded away $10 million in 2017 while almost certainly recouping a significant portion of David Wright‘s $20 million salary through insurance. Putting it together, the Mets are running a below-average payroll in the massive New York market.

The Mets are at a point on the win curve at which adding wins is incredibly valuable for their playoff chances. They sit about 10 games behind the Nationals right now, maybe even less if you lean towards ZiPS’ projections on Smith and Rosario. The gap is large, but not large enough to where it couldn’t be easily overcome with a few solid moves.

[Centerfield]

Sounds fair.

This part hits home.

It’s easy to look at what the Marlins are doing with regard to their payroll and call it an embarrassment. What the Mets are doing is arguably worse. The franchise put out a winning product for a couple years and now appear willing to pocket the goodwill the fanbase has shown. The team has been outspent by the Kansas City Royals over the last four seasons and it looks like that won’t change in 2018, either, even as Kansas City enters what’s likely to be a rebuilding phase.

[nymr83]

Centerfield wrote: Sounds fair. This part hits home. It’s easy to look at what the Marlins are doing with regard to their payroll and call it an embarrassment. What the Mets are doing is arguably worse. The franchise put out a winning product for a couple years and now appear willing to pocket the goodwill the fanbase has shown. The team has been outspent by the Kansas City Royals over the last four seasons and it looks like that won’t change in 2018, either, even as Kansas City enters what’s likely to be a rebuilding phase.

I pretty much agree with the article - this is the window with Thor, deGrom, Conforto*, Cespedes - fucking take it.
*ok, the window with him is likely much longer

the one part i don't agree with is the Marlins part - the Marlins are far more embarrassing because

1) this is their 3rd fire sale in 20 years - they are a PERPETUAL joke

2) they actively sought to lose, trading away good players under team control

3) worse than Wilpon losing his shirt to Madoff is a NEW ownership group allowed to buy a team to gut it - this is embarrassing not just to one franchise but to the league as a whole

4) Jeter.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Nymr83 wrote: the one part i don't agree with is the Marlins part - the Marlins are far more embarrassing because 1) this is their 3rd fire sale in 20 years - they are a PERPETUAL joke

I wouldn't go there. The Marlins have two WS titles in 20 years. The Mets have two first place finishes in 30 years. And last I looked, the Marlins don't play in NYC. In fact, they play in one of the shittiest baseball markets in all of baseball, in an era where markets matter because money matters and the market determines how much revenue a team can generate. The Marlins simply don't draw crowds, even with Stanton and Jose Fernandez and another half dozen or so exciting and promising young players and one of baseball's newest and most innovative stadiums in baseball.

Two first place finishes in 30 years is really, all you need to know to understand what an unmitigated disaster the Wilpons are as baseball owners. It's the Cliffs Notes version of analysis, but it's good enough.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Not that it's much better, but it's THREE first-place finishes in thirty years: 1988, 2006, and 2015.

[nymr83]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Not that it's much better, but it's THREE first-place finishes in thirty years: 1988, 2006, and 2015.

Better than what? The Marlins? We also have 2 or 3 wildcards while they have just the two, but they got luckier in the postseason

[Edgy MD]

A post invisible to your eyes declared the Mets to have garnered two first-place finishes in the previous 30 years.

[nymr83]

Edgy MD wrote: A post invisible to your eyes declared the Mets to have garnered two first-place finishes in the previous 30 years.

Ah. Two more than Hillary, then.

[Guest 41Forever]

I think the Marlins have actually had four fire sales. One after each of the championships, one where they purged Reyes, Mark Burhle and even Ozzie and now this one.

And our home run apple is better than the Art Deco dancing fish sculpture, though that is really cool to watch.

[nymr83]

i didnt even think of the 2012-2013 when Reyes left along with Buhrle and others in that one trade with Toronto and Hanley signing elsewhere, Lee retiring. but you're right that was yet another instance.

[Edgy MD]

That statue is a lot of things, but it ain't Art Deco.

[ashie62]

The New York Mets are investing in the New Islanders to be built complex in the Belmont Parking lot.

We are so so screwed. This angers me.

[Frayed Knot]

Well the Mets aren't investing here, the Wilpons are, or, more accurately, Sterling Equity which makes sense seeing as how they're in the building/real estate business.

Not sure how this means that 'we' (not even quite sure who the 'we' is here) are screwed.



... the $1 billion redevelopment of Belmont Park will be privately funded by the Islanders and the Oak View Group, whose investors include Madison Square Garden Co., owned by James Dolan, and Mets owner Sterling Equities, which was founded by Fred Wilpon.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Guest

[Lefty Specialist]

The Wilpons were booed at the press conference.