FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

[Guest 41Forever]

Centerfield wrote: Fair. I think the article was meant to further the discussion, and he probably feels pressure to do more than just regurgitate Carig’s thoughts from a week ago. I don’t think the Wilpons really detest the fans or owning the team. In fact, I bet they love owning the Mets. But just have no clue how to do it effectively. The “detest the fans” mantra is clearly overstated. But they do seem to have a disregard unusual for owners. That loyalty oath they asked for years ago was part of it. The comment that they would spend more if people bought more tickets furthered this. It doesn’t work that way. You commit to winning. You put a great product on the field, then the fans show up. Even last year the Mets fans did their part.

I don’t disagree with you at all. So many things they’ve said have been clumsy and ham-fisted — at best. They are either getting bad advice, or are not listening to good advice.

[batmagadanleadoff]

The Wilpons care so much for their fans that in a city that's closing in on a population of nine million, they built a 40,000 seat stadium. But what am I talking About? The team's so chronically disappointing, no one bothers to go to their games.

[batmagadanleadoff]

And they didn't get Giancarlo because they're saving up for a Tom Seaver statue.

[ashie62]

41Forever wrote: Centerfield wrote: Fair. I think the article was meant to further the discussion, and he probably feels pressure to do more than just regurgitate Carig’s thoughts from a week ago. I don’t think the Wilpons really detest the fans or owning the team. In fact, I bet they love owning the Mets. But just have no clue how to do it effectively. The “detest the fans” mantra is clearly overstated. But they do seem to have a disregard unusual for owners. That loyalty oath they asked for years ago was part of it. The comment that they would spend more if people bought more tickets furthered this. It doesn’t work that way. You commit to winning. You put a great product on the field, then the fans show up. Even last year the Mets fans did their part. I don’t disagree with you at all. So many things they’ve said have been clumsy and ham-fisted — at best. They are either getting bad advice, or are not listening to good advice.

Thoughtful and true to the core.

[Edgy MD]

Centerfield wrote: I disagree. The premise has been set in an article by his colleague. If you want to challenge his source that is one thing, but Vaccaro is not assuming a premise.

Sure he is. Puma's claim is that Fred was angry at the Yankees, but not that Fred (or his son or brother-in-law) hated owning the Mets. That's Vaccaro's own notion there.

If it were true, then sure, encourage him to let go of his misery. But Vacarro's asking us to jump from "Fred got angry when the Yankees grabbed a big contract" to "Fred hates owning the Mets."

[Benjamin Grimm]

I WISH he hated owning the Mets.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: I disagree. The premise has been set in an article by his colleague. If you want to challenge his source that is one thing, but Vaccaro is not assuming a premise. Sure he is. Puma's claim is that Fred was angry at the Yankees, but not that Fred (or his son or brother-in-law) hated owning the Mets. That's Vaccaro's own notion there. If it were true, then sure, encourage him to let go of his misery. But Vacarro's asking us to jump from "Fred got angry when the Yankees grabbed a big contract" to "Fred hates owning the Mets."

I think a more general misery is implied by that article. Had some line about an established pattern of hand wringing or something like that. But your point is taken. I don’t think anyone really thinks Wilpon hates owning the Mets. I think the article is more of a blow across the bow aimed at them.

Anyway. I like that he is calling them out. Sometimes you need some friends with less than stellar ethics to effectuate rebellion!

[Centerfield]

Meanwhile, our rivals continue to spend. Nationals 2018 payroll expected to be around $210 million.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/nationals-journal/wp/2017/12/22/the-nationals-paid-competitive-balance-tax-in-2017-and-are-now-positioned-to-do-so-next-year-too/?utm_term=.daa4bcca20fb

Per Forbes, the Washington Nationals have revenue that is lower than the Mets.

[Ceetar]

Wilpons like the stereotypical ideal of a New Yorker, and ascribe that person Mets fandom. But they're rich folk who prefer other rich folk and I'm sure wish poorer people well but don't think have a hand in why they're struggling. It's part of the reason I don't want to hear from them, because there would be a lot of rich white male republican drivel in there.

But they LOVE owning the team. that's been established and quoted by people on the record many many many times and to infer the opposite with no sourcing is just dumb.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Not a valid word.

[Centerfield]

You wonder if Fred gets mad when he hears a report that the Nationals intent to exceed the luxury tax. The Nats' spending has much more of an effect on the Mets' fate than anything that happens across town. If he blows up at the Yankees, but doesn't notice the Nats, then he's all sorts of fucked up. And I'm not saying that's what he feels, but that it would show a lot about his priorities.

On a different note, I think if the Mets do intend to spend this winter, it's important to come out and refute all of these stories. One of the things that makes a team attractive to a free agent is that they will spend money to surround that free agent with other talent to win. I would guess that is a large part of why Eric Hosmer would rather not return to KC, he doesn't want to be the only one left after everyone leaves.

I think right now it would be a tough sell to any free agent signing with the Mets. How could you convince him sign on during the era when the starting pitching will start to walk away?

[Edgy MD]

You assure him personally. Or better yet, you just do it. Sign deGrom (and maybe Syndergaard) to an extension and tell him if he signs right now he can share the podium at the press conference, shaking hands with a favorite son.

I think announcing an intent to spend money is a losing play. For one, it gives agents the upper hand. "I got the same offer from Seattle, Sandy, and I KNOW you've got more money because your owner has been talking out of school."

For two, money talks and bullshit walks.

[Centerfield]

Edgy MD wrote: You assure him personally. Or better yet, you just do it. Sign deGrom (and maybe Syndergaard) to an extension and tell him if he signs right now he can share the podium at the press conference, shaking hands with a favorite son. I think announcing an intent to spend money is a losing play. For one, it gives agents the upper hand. "I got the same offer from Seattle, Sandy, and I KNOW you've got more money because your owner has been talking out of school." For two, money talks and bullshit walks.

Sure. Spending money is the best move. The Yankees and Dodgers never have to announce their intent to spend. Spending is assumed. This is part of what makes them so attractive to free agents. They know that they will never have to be "the man". Look at the Ellsbury contract. It's a complete albatross on the Mets. "Jason Bay 2.0" On the Yankees, it's barely a footnote.

But other teams without this history seem to make their intent public. When the Cubs went on their spending spree, they broadcast it all around. Made it clear that they intended to build a winner for years to come. And now the Nats are doing the same. Sending out signals that they intent to exceed the luxury cap for a second straight year.

Think about it from the player's standpoint.

Team A has just won the division. They have a top tier payroll and have announced that they intend to exceed the luxury tax again. Their ace was signed to a big free agent contract, and their young stud pitcher was just signed long term. Their big hitter is up for free agency next year but they have publicly stated that they will make every effort to retain him.

Team B has just lost 90 games. They have a mid-tier payroll and indications are that they intend to scale back. The team has not refuted these reports. They have an arsenal of young pitching, but have signed no one long term. There are two good hitters in their lineup and one of them is hurt.

If the money is the same, which team do you pick?

[Benjamin Grimm]

I have no doubt that the Mets were a significantly more attractive destination to free agents after the 2015 and 2016 seasons than they are now.

[Guest 41Forever]

I don't know if the constant Yankee comparisons are valid. They're a global brand with a revenue stream that 29 other teams would kill to have. It's well known that they can hide their bad contracts better than any other team can. That's nothing new. Who had the line years ago that rooting for the Yankees was like rooting for U.S. Steel? We're in the biggest market in the nation, but we share it with the sport's 800-pound gorilla.

And I've not been to the new stadium -- so correct me if I'm wrong -- but I've heard the prices there are just insane, and it's a stadium built for those rich, white male Republicans that Ceetar hates.

[Centerfield]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I have no doubt that the Mets were a significantly more attractive destination to free agents after the 2015 and 2016 seasons than they are now.

Agreed. And that's why I think it's important to change the atmosphere around the Mets.

Hey, we know we had a tough season, but we have a lot of talent that is coming back healthy in 2018. We did some house-cleaning and we are prepared to field a championship level team. We are looking for the right guys to join us on this ride, because our goal is to win the World Series.

Sandy, did you read the report that you intend to slash payroll by $20 million? Joel Sherman...

Any reporter claiming to know what our budget will be is wrong. I'm not even sure what it will be. I can tell you that we are committed to winning above anything else, and that we have the means to fill our needs. If you look at our history, payroll has steadily increased. I don't know where it will end up, but I see no reason why it couldn't increase further, if we found the right players.

Just like that, the perception improves.

[Centerfield]

I don't know if the constant Yankee comparisons are valid. They're a global brand with a revenue stream that 29 other teams would kill to have. It's well known that they can hide their bad contracts better than any other team can. That's nothing new. Who had the line years ago that rooting for the Yankees was like rooting for U.S. Steel? We're in the biggest market in the nation, but we share it with the sport's 800-pound gorilla. And I've not been to the new stadium -- so correct me if I'm wrong -- but I've heard the prices there are just insane, and it's a stadium built for those rich, white male Republicans that Ceetar hates.

I will say this. To anyone saying that the Mets should spend like a big market team, there is no dumber counter argument than "It's not like they're the Yankees". It's infuriating.

Not once, ever have I said the Mets should spend like the Yankees. We know that they are not the Yankees. Can we put that issue to bed and not raise it again? It's so fucking aggravating. One of these days, this will be the reason I end up in jail.

Read the posts again.

To summarize.

Me: The Mets should publicly announce an intent to spend. They need to change this public image. It's not attractive to free agents.

Edgy: The best way to do this is to actually spend. Announcing an intent to spend is counterproductive.

Me: Sure, actually spending is the best way. This is what the Yankees and Dodgers do. But because the Mets are not the Yankees and Dodgers, they should announce their intent. Like the Cubs and Nationals.

You: You know, it's not fair to compare the Mets and Yankees.

Me: Fighting the urge to murder.

[Guest 41Forever]

Agreed. And that's why I think it's important to change the atmosphere around the Mets. Hey, we know we had a tough season, but we have a lot of talent that is coming back healthy in 2018. We did some house-cleaning and we are prepared to field a championship level team. We are looking for the right guys to join us on this ride, because our goal is to win the World Series. Sandy, did you read the report that you intend to slash payroll by $20 million? Joel Sherman... Any reporter claiming to know what our budget will be is wrong. I'm not even sure what it will be. I can tell you that we are committed to winning above anything else, and that we have the means to fill our needs. If you look at our history, payroll has steadily increased. I don't know where it will end up, but I see no reason why it couldn't increase further, if we found the right players. Just like that, the perception improves.

I agree totally. That's why I've been saying the Mets have a communications issue.

[Ceetar]

99.9% of all signings are motivated by money. Neil Walker isn't sitting on multiple offers waiting to see which other free agents sign or which teams pitch him the best future. He's waiting for the best offer than contacting other teams to try to get them to top it. It's why the Yankees (And often the Mets too) are linked to many free agents. It's why Carlos Beltran and Scott Boras floated a "Wants to be a Yankee" quote, to try to get the Yankees to offer something so they could then come back to the Mets again and get them to try to top that. Boras was sitting in a puddle of drool imagining both NY teams getting into a bidding war.

And no one would believe the Wilpons anyway. (Though everyone's quick to believe veiled allusions by Alderson that they'll spend _less_)

no second basemen have signed. Reliever fodder is a dime a dozen and you can literally always find a reliever at any time of year. The Mets also need some sort of 1B/OF depth signing, but they're stuck in that place of wanting a guy but not wanting to really guarantee him any playing time because they're really hoping Smith and Conforto play at least 140 games. I guess you could take a talented guy and way overpay him and then not use him. There's your "spend freely" argument, particularly if it's just a one-year deal on some guy. But that's still sorta a niche role that players probably hold on to offers and hope someone sees them as something fulltime.

[ashie62]

The Yankees have made two high level internationals. Sandy is not Cashman. Yankees use their "proprietary" model and retooled to compete for a Championship.

The Mets need to be aggressive suitors to sign a J.D. Martinez in the OF & an Eric Hosmer at 1B.

Fred Wilpon, if you want to fill your playhouse with fans you INVEST first. Then you WIN, and then you PROFIT.

I see the Twins and Brewers as smaller market teams investing in this way.

I could see a Yankees v. Brewers (not Dodgers) WS.

The Mets cannot compete at that level in 2018.

I will eat my ticket money and NOT go to Citifield ONCE in 2018.

I kinda hope this "boycott" catches on and a June Tuesday at home has 8,000 fannies at Citi where 6,000 are the Stoopid not in reality 7 Line gang.

FANS FIRST IN 2018

Bring it on.

[ashie62]

Suck it Fred.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mets-owner-fred-wilpon-is-reportedly-furious-the-yankees-added-giancarlo-stanton/

[MFS62]

Its all still different lazy reporters talking or writing about Puma's article (with a mention of Bernie Madoff thrown in) in order to fill column inches or air time.
They proudly say the same thing in different ways like they just created a new life form.
Feh.
If you can predict the future or what somebody is going to do, call your broker or get your ass to Las Vegas and make some real money.
Let's see what happens.

Later

[Edgy MD]

Well, the article is a week old.

[Centerfield]

You know what else sucks about the lack of faith in spending? It kills message board discussion. All of our “Let’s talk about X” threads have slipped to the second page.

We have no idea who is even worth discussing. Sandy might have $10 million or $50 million to spend.

Maybe we need John Ricco to do another interview and tell us again they will be in on the big name free agents.

[nymr83]

maybe we should just discuss what we want the team to do anyway?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Centerfield wrote: I will say this. To anyone saying that the Mets should spend like a big market team, there is no dumber counter argument than "It's not like they're the Yankees". It's infuriating. Not once, ever have I said the Mets should spend like the Yankees. We know that they are not the Yankees. Can we put that issue to bed and not raise it again? It's so fucking aggravating. One of these days, this will be the reason I end up in jail.

I know. People say the Mets don't have Yankees money to justify the Mets spending at less than KC Royal levels. But we should accept that Fred Wilpon could be as terrrble an owner as he possibly can so long as there's at least one other owner who's even worse.

I guess it would be delusional to have a realistic conversation about the Mets signing Bryce Harper after next season, right?

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Wilpons care so much for their fans that in a city that's closing in on a population of nine million, they built a 40,000 seat stadium. But what am I talking About? The team's so chronically disappointing, no one bothers to go to their games.

If he cared about the fans, he'd sell one of his office buildings and the Madoff debt might be done with. But he couldn't give a flying fuck about the fans. He wants to eat his fucking cake, too. Instead, he'll ride out the financial crisis even if it means keeping the Mets in mediocrity for as long as it takes for the debt to be paid back with Mets baseball revenue, knowing full well he's covered because the value of the franchise is rising to astronomical proportions. If the Marlins are worth a billion, what the hell is the NYC NL franchise worth?

[Ceetar]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Wilpons care so much for their fans that in a city that's closing in on a population of nine million, they built a 40,000 seat stadium. But what am I talking About? The team's so chronically disappointing, no one bothers to go to their games. If he cared about the fans, he'd sell one of his office buildings and the Madoff debt might be done with. But he couldn't give a flying fuck about the fans. He wants to eat his fucking cake, too. Instead, he'll ride out the financial crisis even if it means keeping the Mets in mediocrity for as long as it takes for the debt to be paid back with Mets baseball revenue, knowing full well he's covered because the value of the franchise is rising to astronomical proportions. If the Marlins are worth a billion, what the hell is the NYC NL franchise worth?

Literally every owner.

If the Yankees were losing money, the Steinbrenners would cut payroll.

No owner would liquidate one asset to try to make the another one more popular.

I mean, I'd like the owners of Chick Fil-A to sell too as they're garbage people running the business in a way contrary to what i feel I "deserve" as a customer.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I've seen estimates that the Mets may be worth $2 billion. Back in 1980, the Doubleday-Wilpon group purchased the team for $21 million. If I had known how much the value of the team would appreciate, I would have bought the team in 1980 for $21 million, even though I was 17 years old and broke.

Maybe our best hope is that after Fred is gone, Jeff might decide that he'd rather have $2 billion than a baseball team.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I've seen estimates that the Mets may be worth $2 billion. Back in 1980, the Doubleday-Wilpon group purchased the team for $21 million. If I had known how much the value of the team would appreciate, I would have bought the team in 1980 for $21 million, even though I was 17 years old and broke. Maybe our best hope is that after Fred is gone, Jeff might decide that he'd rather have $2 billion than a baseball team.

It gets even better. Or worse. Wilpon was a minority investor. I think his initial stake was five percent, or about $1Milllion. He parlayed one million dollars into about two billion. And when it came time to buy out Doubleday's share, the rumor is that Wilpon wouldn't have been able to do so without leveraging financial data for credit that, in hindsight, was phony ---- a portfolio based on Madoff's then undiscovered fraudulent and inflated holdings.