REAL Offseason Shenanigans (spit from Offseason Shenanigans)

[Centerfield]

My idea of offseason shenanigans is a team that claims to be on the verge of contention "improving" their team over the winter by signing a 36 year old OF'er coming off a significant injury and doing dick otherwise.

And still not spending any money.

[Guest d'Kong76]

That, too.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: My idea of offseason shenanigans is a team that claims to be on the verge of contention "improving" their team over the winter by signing a 36 year old OF'er coming off a significant injury and doing dick otherwise. And still not spending any money.

'significant'? He broke his shoulder diving for a ball, and had a little hamstring thing. Those aren't really significant.

[Edgy MD]

I don't really root for the improvement that comes through offseason dealings. To my thinking, that's just what a team does in accepting that they've failed at something in building the team. When a team has the best minor league record of all 30 teams, I'm not in a rush to force them to admit failure.

A lot of the best Mets teams came after doing little transacting in the offseason. A lot of the most improved ones and the best overall ones.

And a lot of the crappiest teams have come after an offseason of copious transacting. Transacting ain't winning. It's... shuffling. And not transacting certainly isn't doing nothing.

[Zvon]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I feel bad for Wilmer Flores. I think the Mets fans are going to give him a lot of undeserved shit for not being Tulowitski or Desmond or Honus Wagner.

Real Mets fans cheer for the underdog!

[Guest d'Kong76]

Edgy MD wrote: I don't really root for the improvement that comes through offseason dealings. To my thinking, that's just what a team does in accepting that they've failed at something in building the team. When a team has the best minor league record of all 30 teams, I'm not in a rush to force them to admit that. A lot of the best Mets teams came after doing little transacting in the offseason. A lot of the most improved ones and the best overall ones. And a lot of the crappiest teams have come after an offseason of copious transacting. Transacting ain't winning. It's... shuffling. And not transacting certainly isn't doing nothing.

What's your stance on copious scoreboard upgrades?
When the Nationals win the division, we'll talk about transacting
ain't winning? Cubs?
The fans that habitually cut the Wilpons some slack have gotten to
me so much this off-season I can't even begin to explain how aggravating
it is.
Not transacting certainly is doing nothing. Transact not, improve not.

[Ceetar]

d'Kong76 wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I don't really root for the improvement that comes through offseason dealings. To my thinking, that's just what a team does in accepting that they've failed at something in building the team. When a team has the best minor league record of all 30 teams, I'm not in a rush to force them to admit that. A lot of the best Mets teams came after doing little transacting in the offseason. A lot of the most improved ones and the best overall ones. And a lot of the crappiest teams have come after an offseason of copious transacting. Transacting ain't winning. It's... shuffling. And not transacting certainly isn't doing nothing. What's your stance on copious scoreboard upgrades? [crossout]When[/crossout] If the Nationals win the division, we'll talk about transacting ain't winning? Cubs? The fans that habitually cut the Wilpons some slack have gotten to me so much this off-season I can't even begin to explain how aggravating it is. Not transacting certainly is doing nothing. Transact not, improve not.

fixed that.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Thanks!

[Benjamin Grimm]

I don't know... the Mets improved quite a bit from 1983 to 1984 and this is what they did between those two seasons. None of these moves got anybody excited.

December 8, 1983 New York Mets traded Bob Bailor and Carlos Diaz to the Los Angeles Dodgers for Sid Fernandez and Ross Jones. January 17, 1984 New York Mets signed free agent Rafael Santana. January 27, 1984 New York Mets signed free agent Dick Tidrow of the Chicago White Sox. January 30, 1984 New York Mets released Dave Kingman. February 22, 1984 New York Mets released Mark Bradley. March 17, 1984 New York Mets signed free agent Jerry Martin of the Kansas City Royals. April 1, 1984 New York Mets traded Tucker Ashford to the Kansas City Royals for Tom Edens.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't know... the Mets improved quite a bit from 1983 to 1984 and this is what they did between those two seasons. None of these moves got anybody excited.

The 1984 Mets also got a whole, instead of half a season from that year's runner-up MVP, Keith Hernandez. '84 was Keith's best season as a Met.

But beyond '84, no one should overlook the significant value Davey Johnson's Mets gained by acquiring such outside talent as Hernandez, Carter, Fernandez, Knight and Ojeda --- and then later, McReynolds and Viola -- just to name the biggest names in that category.

[batmagadanleadoff]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't know... the Mets improved quite a bit from 1983 to 1984 and this is what they did between those two seasons. None of these moves got anybody excited. The 1984 Mets also got a whole, instead of half a season from that year's runner-up MVP, Keith Hernandez. '84 was Keith's best season as a Met. But beyond '84, no one should overlook the significant value Davey Johnson's Mets gained by acquiring such outside talent as Hernandez, Carter, Fernandez, Knight and Ojeda --- and then later, McReynolds and Viola -- just to name the biggest names in that category.

'84 was also trade acquisition Ron Darling's first full Met season (he pitched just 35.1 innings the previous season.) And add Hojo to the list above.

[Edgy MD]

d'Kong76 wrote: What's your stance on copious scoreboard upgrades?

I'm mostly indifferent. But I guess upgrading and maintaining the park is part of their job, and it's certainly a part that fans have demanded they do more and better. If park improvements is what Jeff is focusing on, I'm OK with that.

d'Kong76 wrote: When the Nationals win the division, we'll talk about transacting ain't winning? Cubs?

Fair enough. See you at the finishing pole.

d'Kong76 wrote: The fans that habitually cut the Wilpons some slack have gotten to me so much this off-season I can't even begin to explain how aggravating it is.

I'm sorry to have been aggravating, certainly, but my survey suggests I'm in a pale minority, if that's any comfort.

d'Kong76 wrote: Not transacting certainly is doing nothing. Transact not, improve not.

I guess we'll see. My perspective (and it's nothing new) is that roughly 50% of transactions go south. More than that, from the Mets' point of view.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I don't know... the Mets improved quite a bit from 1983 to 1984 and this is what they did between those two seasons. None of these moves got anybody excited. The 1984 Mets also got a whole, instead of half a season from that year's runner-up MVP, Keith Hernandez. '84 was Keith's best season as a Met. But beyond '84, no one should overlook the significant value Davey Johnson's Mets gained by acquiring such outside talent as Hernandez, Carter, Fernandez, Knight and Ojeda --- and then later, McReynolds and Viola -- just to name the biggest names in that category. '84 was also trade acquisition Ron Darling's first full Met season (he pitched just 35.1 innings the previous season.) And add Hojo to the list above.

I forgot this guy, too:

[Edgy MD]

I'm not sure what the discussion is centered around here.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Yeah, really. David Cone? Kevin McReynolds? My point was that the Mets improved a lot from 1983 to 1984 without making a significant offseason deal, and that their improvement came almost entirely from young players maturing. The fact that they got David Cone three years later, or Mike Piazza fourteen years later, has nothing at all to do with that.

[Edgy MD]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't know... the Mets improved quite a bit from 1983 to 1984 and this is what they did between those two seasons. None of these moves got anybody excited. December 8, 1983 New York Mets traded Bob Bailor and Carlos Diaz to the Los Angeles Dodgers for Sid Fernandez and Ross Jones. January 17, 1984 New York Mets signed free agent Rafael Santana. January 27, 1984 New York Mets signed free agent Dick Tidrow of the Chicago White Sox. January 30, 1984 New York Mets released Dave Kingman. February 22, 1984 New York Mets released Mark Bradley. March 17, 1984 New York Mets signed free agent Jerry Martin of the Kansas City Royals. April 1, 1984 New York Mets traded Tucker Ashford to the Kansas City Royals for Tom Edens.

Missing here, somehow:

January 20, 1984:
Tom Seaver chosen by the Chicago White Sox from the New York Mets as a free agent compensation pick.

[Benjamin Grimm]

That never happened!

[Edgy MD]

So the Cashen APOLOGISTS would have you believe!

Another minor oversight I noted in your excellent transaction record:

[list:1yx85ew0]December 4, 1968
Jack DiLauro traded by the New York Mets to the Detroit Tigers in exchange for Hector Valle.[/list:u:1yx85ew0]

Unless I'm missing some'n', this should be going the other way.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Yeah, really. David Cone? Kevin McReynolds? My point was that the Mets improved a lot from 1983 to 1984 without making a significant offseason deal, and that their improvement came almost entirely from young players maturing. The fact that they got David Cone three years later, or Mike Piazza fourteen years later, has nothing at all to do with that.

I knew what your point was. With my second point, I was really addressing some other attitudes about trades that pop up here from time to time, to wit: that a team (okay, the Mets) ought to hold onto all of its players like they're the cherished teddy bear of your three year old toddler. I should've made that clearer. That's all, admittedly, superfluous to your point.


But my first point holds up. The 1984 Mets improved, in large part, because of the contributions of players they acquired in trades -- just not trades that were made in the most recent off-season. '84 was Hernandez's first full Met season: he was easily their best player that year. And Darling and Terrell were two of the Mets three best starters. Orosco was also acquired in a trade.

Anyways, me, I'm not one of those fans whining about the Mets supposed lack of activity this off-season as the reason for whatever it is that ails them. The Mets problems are much larger than that, more complicated, and deeper-rooted. And noted here on this forum and everywhere else ad nauseum.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Yeah, really. David Cone? Kevin McReynolds? My point was that the Mets improved a lot from 1983 to 1984 without making a significant offseason deal, and that their improvement came almost entirely from young players maturing. The fact that they got David Cone three years later, or Mike Piazza fourteen years later, has nothing at all to do with that. I knew what your point was. With my second point, I was really addressing some other attitudes about trades that pop up here from time to time, to wit: that a team (okay, the Mets) ought to hold onto all of its players like they're the cherished teddy bear of your three year old toddler. I should've made that clearer. That's all, admittedly, superfluous to your point. But my first point holds up. The 1984 Mets improved, in large part, because of the contributions of players they acquired in trades -- just not trades that were made in the most recent off-season. '84 was Hernandez's first full Met season: he was easily their best player that year. And Darling and Terrell were two of the Mets three best starters. Orosco was also acquired in a trade. Anyways, me, I'm not one of those fans whining about the Mets supposed lack of activity this off-season as the reason for whatever it is that ails them. The Mets problems are much larger than that, more complicated, and deeper-rooted. And noted here on this forum and everywhere else ad nauseum.

I suppose that the 2015 Mets could take some big steps forward with improved production from some of their outside acquisitions obtained prior to this off-season --- like d'Arnaud, Wheeler and Syndergaard. That could happen. That could draw parallels to '84. (Although the Mets did get Cuddyer and Mayberry in the past few months).

[Benjamin Grimm]

I'm not expecting that 2015 will be like 1984, but I don't think it's an unreasonable hope. That would still leave them quite a bit short of 1986, but after the last few years I'd be delighted with a 1984.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm not expecting that 2015 will be like 1984, but I don't think it's an unreasonable hope. That would still leave them quite a bit short of 1986, but after the last few years I'd be delighted with a 1984.

I could've written your last post myself, word for word. I'm not expecting significant improvement this year, but it's not implausible. And if you wanna let your imagination run amok, the Mets were in better shape at the end of last season than they were at the end of the 1968 season.

[Frayed Knot]

The thing about years like 1984 is that the improvements look obvious only in retrospect.
With similar hindsight, we could be saying years from now that a lack of outside acquisitions was OK way back in the winter of 2014-15 because we knew heading into '15 that we were going to have the first full years of Harvey, deGrom, d'Arnaud, & Lagares; that Wright was returning from injury and sure to improve, that Grandson was due for a bounce back, that Duda had shown the previous year that he was ready for prime-time and now had the job from day one, etc.

Far-fetched? Maybe. But no more so than knowing the kind of year Keith was going to give you or that Dwight Gooden was about to be dropped in your lap.
I remember a writer (wish I remembered which one) laughing at the idea of Wally Backman making a contribution at 2B but of course, with hindsight, that turned out to be exactly the move we needed.

[seawolf17]

I'm not displeased with this offseason. I don't want to make moves just to make moves; it's not about cutting the Wilpons slack -- I can't stand the Wilpons -- but all the big names available were starting pitchers, and we don't *need* any of that.

[Edgy MD]

Backman replacing Giles was THE lineup change in 1983-1984 offseason.

[Frayed Knot]

Backman replacing Giles was THE lineup change in 1983-1984 offseason.

Keys to a big improvement: Have 2/5 of your starting rotation finish 1st & 5th in RoY voting - and then watch them improve the year after that.

seawolf17 wrote: I'm not displeased with this offseason. I don't want to make moves just to make moves; it's not about cutting the Wilpons slack -- I can't stand the Wilpons -- but all the big names available were starting pitchers, and we don't *need* any of that.

Look, I'd be all for a shortstop upgrade (and have been both hoping and predicting it for two off-seasons now). But, like you say, don't make moves just to make them and one of the best lessons from 'Moneybag' IMO is that the player you fail to sign/acquire won't hurt you as much as the one you get at the wrong price. Remember two winters ago the "must have" FA in many NYM circles was Michael Bourn. Imagine today had we signed Bourn for four years, cut Lagares loose because of it (he would have been blocked and no one seemed to know what we had in him at that time), and paid not just the FA cost but also the draft pick that became Conforto.

As for SS, we had a similar winter-long SS thread last winter and then looked at it later in the year only to find that none of the rumored or hoped-for guys [Gregorius, Miller or Franklin from Seattle for ex.] would have helped all that much if at all. Gregarious was finally moved this year and, while he's got youth and potential, he's also a 24 y/o already in his 3rd org with an OPS vs LHP that would make for a halfway decent two-game bowling score but that's about it. We all know the problems/questions with Tulo, and while I would have loved Desmond, he was the one deal where we pretty know for a fact what the price would have been to get him, and no one here (me included) would have been comfortable paying it.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

There was some pining for Stephen Drew, too. Glad we didn't lose a pick for that guy.

[Edgy MD]

Backman replacing Giles was THE lineup change in 1983-1984 offseason. Keys to a big improvement: Have 2/5 of your starting rotation finish 1st & 5th in RoY voting - and then watch them improve the year after that.

Sure, but they also improved their scoring from 3.55 to 4.02 runs per game.

[Fman99]

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: There was some pining for Stephen Drew, too. Glad we didn't lose a pick for that guy.

Michael Bourn was another one. He hasn't done shit since signing his big fat contract.

[nymr83]

Edgy MD wrote: I don't really root for the improvement that comes through offseason dealings. To my thinking, that's just what a team does in accepting that they've failed at something in building the team. When a team has the best minor league record of all 30 teams, I'm not in a rush to force them to admit failure. A lot of the best Mets teams came after doing little transacting in the offseason. A lot of the most improved ones and the best overall ones. And a lot of the crappiest teams have come after an offseason of copious transacting. Transacting ain't winning. It's... shuffling. And not transacting certainly isn't doing nothing.

I agree with your general premise that improving from within usually is a better plan than just throwing money around, but do you have any evidence to support the notion that minor league record matters for the major league club's future win totals? i'd be interested in that!