People Who Hate Sandy Alderson

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Adam Rubin "has lobby" to take him down, it seems. I know he's let it out before that he resents the lack of access he's been afforded, particularly as the team grants just as much face time to the Mom's Basement Press Association. But he hasn't suggested he get fired until, um, now. From his "observerations of the Mets column:

5. Sandy spotlight intensifying. Say what you want about Terry Collins, but educated fans know where the fault will lie if the Mets end up with a sixth straight losing season in 2014. Alderson has now had four offseasons to fix things. Yes, the rotation beginning next season should be very strong with Matt Harvey returning and Noah Syndergaard looking like a future star. But, for now, the Mets� success is dependent upon Alderson�s ability to identify cost-effective talent. His track record in selecting the right free agents has been rather weak.

I don't think the Mets are even going to be "allowed" to fire Sandy (I believe the quants counting the debt ratios are calling the shots) but if they do it's going to be a freaking mess.

[nymr83]

Adam Rubin needs to shut up, 4 years isnt enough time to turn around a trainwreck of a minor league system... anyone he drafted is only first hitting the upper levels of the minors now!

I havent seen any other GMs go out and acquire Zach Wheeler, Noah Syndergaard and Travis d'Arnaud for a 36 year old pitcher who just had his career year and a 3-month Beltran rental.

Alderson is doing a great job. Fire Rubin.

and fuck the traditional media and their sense of entitlement. if "Mom's Basement Press Association" is actually writing quality stories then they are just as deserving of a seat at the press table as he is.

[Edgy MD]

Think of all the money he was given, and he blew it on Jason Bay, Luis Castillo, Johan Santana, Billy Wagner, Francisco Rodriguez. I could go on!!

For God's sake, the man set up a deal that has us still paying Bobby Bonilla!! What was he thinking?

It was Sandy Alderson that asked me root for Tom Glavine as my opening day pitcher, and it was Sandy Alderson that denied me the opportunity to rub myself all over with a Kevin Mitchell MVP season, which WAS MY BIRTHRIGHT!!

Firing is TOO GOOD FOR HIM!

[metirish]

Say what you want about Terry Collins, but educated fans know where the fault will lie if the Mets end up with a sixth straight losing season in 2014. Alderson has now had four offseasons to fix things.

educated fans?, meaning smart folk like Rubin?, way to distinguish yourself asshole.

I need to see progress, I trust in Alderson and his team.

[Centerfield]

I'm sure that most of the FIRE SANDY crowd are being reactionary, and we do have to assume that his hands have been tied economically throughout his tenure, but there are certainly fair criticisms of Sandy:

1. Missed an opportunity to sign Reyes to an extension after his down year, one year prior to free agency. Not to say he would have reached a deal, but definitely missed a window to negotiate.
2. No draftees have made any impact. In fact, except for Dominic Smith, who is still years away, none are even on the radar.
3. Re-stocking the system with pitching has largely been from trading away Minaya commodities (Wheeler from Beltran, Syndegaard and d'Arnaud for Dickey). Kudos to Sandy for making solid trades, but the level of difficulty here is not earth-shattering. The system is still missing impact position players.

Still, I'd rather have Sandy at the helm than anyone else I know, but that doesn't mean the man should be bulletproof for all of these losing seasons.

[Edgy MD]

�Pelfrey without the split or breaking ball� � Adam Rubin (@AdamRubinESPN) on Matt Harvey, July 12, 2012

The work he puts in suggests he's more reporter than we deserve. What would we do without him?

And then, every few months or so, he's got land one of these pointless Mike Francessa-like everbody's-an-idiot-but-me punches, positioning himself as both populist and elitist and looking phony and sad in both roles.

The notion that no draftees have made any impact isn't really fair. And two and a half years out from the first draft is a tough time to definitievely judge. Development takes time, especially when drafting high schoolers. AND you have to take amateur foreign free agent signings along with the draftees.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: I'm sure that most of the FIRE SANDY crowd are being reactionary, and we do have to assume that his hands have been tied economically throughout his tenure, but there are certainly fair criticisms of Sandy: 1. Missed an opportunity to sign Reyes to an extension after his down year, one year prior to free agency. Not to say he would have reached a deal, but definitely missed a window to negotiate. 2. No draftees have made any impact. In fact, except for Dominic Smith, who is still years away, none are even on the radar. 3. Re-stocking the system with pitching has largely been from trading away Minaya commodities (Wheeler from Beltran, Syndegaard and d'Arnaud for Dickey). Kudos to Sandy for making solid trades, but the level of difficulty here is not earth-shattering. The system is still missing impact position players. Still, I'd rather have Sandy at the helm than anyone else I know, but that doesn't mean the man should be bulletproof for all of these losing seasons.

1. yeah, the Reyes extension that offseason instead of simply picking up the option seemed like a really wise move, especially as the FA market has exploded lately. But he'd been there roughly a month at the time so I suspect he viewed it as a chance to actually evaluate the player himself rather than just throwing money at what was already here. (This was also pre the Madoff stuff coming out, though who knows if that came up at the time)

2. The impact players is a fair point I think. He brought in the pitching prospects but hasn't quite found the hitters.

3. While the level of difficulty was not high, he gets credit for sticking to his guns and demanding the moon. It would've been easy and even understandable if he accepted less than he got for those guys. (or for Byrd/Buck)


There are other things of course. The bullpen. The Pagan giveaway. Also the unwillingness to overpay even a little bit for most guys (perhaps Granderson is a shift in this regard) and being willing to let them walk. I get that the Mets aren't quite at the 'go for it stage' but sometimes you need to make bolder moves to get into that position.


But this negative spin stuff is why i don't read Rubin. I get that he hustles and gets more information and schmoozes everyone in the organization for extra info, he's a fine reporter, but those extra nuggets aren't worth to me the baggage and bitchiness he brings.

[G-Fafif]

Alderson's had the world's longest large-market honeymoon with its supposedly ferocious press corps, all of whom have basically taken him at his word every step of the way. There's probably no hot seat for Sandy even if it's another 74-win snooze to the finish and, because this is a long-term project -- with pitching just over the horizon and who-knows-what with the budget -- he and his brain trust deserve a decent-sized benefit of the doubt. But a diligent beat reporter implying that the small improvements you might expect from a bunch of front office whiz-bangs (bullpen, bench, resolution at first and short) have been slow in coming is a perfectly legitimate observation.

On the loosely paralleling Cashen Calendar, this season looms as the modern 1983, Year IV of the regime brought in to fix things. We know with hindsight that was the bottoming out moment -- 6-15 out of the gate; 37-65 well after Straw was promoted and Hernandez was acquired -- of the endless darkness. But light flickered in August and September (31-29) and we know what happened next.

So let's see a little Art Howe action by the season's final third, so to speak. Let's light up the room with a little more than promises.

[Frayed Knot]

I don't believe Sandy had any power or input in the decision not to pursue Reyes.

[nymr83]

Frayed Knot wrote: I don't believe Sandy had any power or input in the decision not to pursue Reyes.

Reyes is on the DL again.he played 93 games last year. this contract could still easily turn into the disaster that many predicted, so i dont know why anyone wants to criticize sandy for not signing it.

[Edgy MD]

He didn't break any teams, but he and his contract have been a part of two teams that have broken since it was signed.

[Ceetar]

Nymr83 wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: I don't believe Sandy had any power or input in the decision not to pursue Reyes. Reyes is on the DL again.he played 93 games last year. this contract could still easily turn into the disaster that many predicted, so i dont know why anyone wants to criticize sandy for not signing it.

We're not necessarily criticizing him for not giving him the Marlins deal or topping that, but a the line SS over the next 4-5 years would be an asset. A risky one, yes, but everyone's at risk of injury. Sure, he happens to be on the DL this year and was hurt last year. That's what the risk is/was. Doesn't mean It wouldn't have been a good gamble. Especially at a more team-friendly contract after 2010.

[Edgy MD]

That's some hard-to-corral logic.

Not saying you're wrong. But what outcome exactly would then vindicate Alderson?

[Frayed Knot]

Nymr83 wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: I don't believe Sandy had any power or input in the decision not to pursue Reyes. Reyes is on the DL again.he played 93 games last year. this contract could still easily turn into the disaster that many predicted, so i dont know why anyone wants to criticize sandy for not signing it.

Whether the non-signing was a good move or not was debatable then and probably still is so now. My point is that I don't believe Sandy had choice in the matter and therefore his "decision" to not sign him, coming as it did at the nadir of the problems caused by the Madoff mess, was made in advance for him by the money men.

[ashie62]

I doubt it was Sandy's decision regarding Reyes...

We really don't know how much leeway he has and have had from Fred & Jeff so I'll give Sandy a B+ to date...

I do have a concern that failing to address SS, the Bullpen and a better backup C to back up the kid may hurt from time...

Regarding Rubin.. well, we all looked at it anyway... His best value to me is posting pre-game lineups...

I believe most Met fans would get a fairer read on the team reading this board than any beat guy..

[Zvon]

I agree on B+. And he will have the reigns for a few more years before there's any chance of him getting fired.

[Edgy MD]

A B+ is nothing to sneeze at. It may well get him into the top three GMs in the history of the team if he disappeared tomorrow.

[ashie62]

I don't see him getting fired by the Mets at all... I've gone with the idea that Sandy might retire after his work with the Mets is done.

I wonder if there is a scenario where he takes over for Selig as commish...

[Centerfield]

To be clear here, my criticism is not that Sandy didn't re-sign Jose when he was a free-agent and getting crazy offers from the Marlins (2011). My criticism is that he did not even make an attempt to sign Jose to an extension the year before, when Reyes expressed an interest in negotiations, and when he was coming off of a down year (2010). There was a chance even a four year extension would have gotten it done then.

Now, many have speculated that Sandy Alderson didn't have the authority to engage in those negotiations. And that may be true, but we have no way of knowing that. And I don't think any reporter can make that assumption, so this criticism of Alderson is warranted and fair. He is, after all, the GM. And in the absence of other proof, this responsibility lies with him.

Personally, I believe his hands were probably tied as well. But if that's the case, I'm disappointed that he was not able to sit down with the Wilpons and say "Look guys, I know you're strapped, but let me give him a modest bump now, and we can avoid having to bid like crazy next year. If we lose him, not only will we lose an iconic player, but we'll have a giant gaping hole at SS for the foreseeable future."

And for what it's worth, I am not saying he should be fired. He has made some great moves (Beltran trade, Dickey trade, even not underselling on Ike) and I can't think of a better person to be guiding this team right now, but the man is not above criticism.

Sure, he has limited resources, but he has still had four straight losing seasons. Oakland still has a lower payroll and won 96 games last year.

And Greg is right about the longest honeymoon ever. When he was hired, did anyone here think "Awesome! We're only going to suck for another five years, then after that we'll be right back in it!"

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: And Greg is right about the longest honeymoon ever. When he was hired, did anyone here think "Awesome! We're only going to suck for another five years, then after that we'll be right back in it!"

When he was hired, 99% of us hadn't heard of Bernie Madoff.

I think the biggest thing now is there is basically no Minaya money on the books besides some arb guys. I think they owe a little to Bay but that's based on a buyout clause that Alderson negotiated. So he got to this point, with lots of planning and preparation. Yes, revenue is likely way down from the 2010 numbers he was likely shown when he signed and part of that may be an inability to spend to keep fans coming, but he presided over that.

I'm still happy he's our GM and what not, and I like the team this year, but I expect more from the team this year than it's likely to provide and that's on him.

[Centerfield]

The Madoff story broke in December 2008. Alderson was hired after the 2010 season. Everyone here knew the name Bernie Madoff.

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: I think the biggest thing now is there is basically no Minaya money on the books besides some arb guys. I think they owe a little to Bay but that's based on a buyout clause that Alderson negotiated. So he got to this point, with lots of planning and preparation. Yes, revenue is likely way down from the 2010 numbers he was likely shown when he signed and part of that may be an inability to spend to keep fans coming, but he presided over that.

This is silly. If they had hired me as GM, there would be no Minaya money on the books. This is not a feat by any stretch of the imagination.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: Ceetar wrote: I think the biggest thing now is there is basically no Minaya money on the books besides some arb guys. I think they owe a little to Bay but that's based on a buyout clause that Alderson negotiated. So he got to this point, with lots of planning and preparation. Yes, revenue is likely way down from the 2010 numbers he was likely shown when he signed and part of that may be an inability to spend to keep fans coming, but he presided over that. This is silly. If they had hired me as GM, there would be no Minaya money on the books. This is not a feat by any stretch of the imagination.

No, it's not a feat. my point is simply that the roster construction is his.

the Mets/Madoff connection didn't really leak until after. At least, the extent of their losses and that they were going to be involved in the lawsuit. Perhaps they disclosed that to Sandy before hand. Perhaps not.

[Vic Sage]

Now, many have speculated that Sandy Alderson didn't have the authority to engage in those negotiations. And that may be true, but we have no way of knowing that. And I don't think any reporter can make that assumption, so this criticism of Alderson is warranted and fair. He is, after all, the GM. And in the absence of other proof, this responsibility lies with him.

As CF knows, as a fellow barrister, there is a doctrine in the law called Res Ipsa Loquitor... the thing speaks for itself (23 years after law school, it's probably the only thing i still remember).

Speaking of which... if a franchise owner loses his fortune in a pyramid scheme, going into hock to hold onto the team, selling off chunks of it and mortgaging its other assets just to maintain cash flow, making deals with banks to cap expenditures, and if that team's payroll has concurrently dwindled to mid-market proportions, and the owners bring in a guy whose famous for making teams competitive on a small budget, then yeah, i think the thing speaks for itself, with regard to how much leeway Alderson has in making ANY decisions that increase payroll (i.e., virtually none). Particularly at the time of the Reyes situation, when the `Pons were still under the cloud of a lawsuit of potentially cataclysmic proportions.

So Sandy gets a pass from me until its clear that the team is either sold or starts demonstrating a willingness to use the resources that should be available to a team in the biggest market in America. Is he beyond criticism? Of course not, but that's a far cry from implying (as Rubin does) that Sandy should be on the hot seat, because "smart people" know whose fault this really is. Sandy is obviously a smart guy with a track record of success who has already made this team better and has given this franchise more long term hope than it had when he showed up.

NYMR83: Adam Rubin needs to shut up, 4 years isnt enough time to turn around a trainwreck of a minor league system... anyone he drafted is only first hitting the upper levels of the minors now! I havent seen any other GMs go out and acquire Zach Wheeler, Noah Syndergaard and Travis d'Arnaud for a 36 year old pitcher who just had his career year and a 3-month Beltran rental. Alderson is doing a great job. Fire Rubin. and fuck the traditional media and their sense of entitlement. if "Mom's Basement Press Association" is actually writing quality stories then they are just as deserving of a seat at the press table as he is.

In all the years we've all been here (or its predecessor boards), I don't think I've ever written this word regarding a post from NYMR83, but here it is: "ditto".

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: I think the biggest thing now is there is basically no Minaya money on the books besides some arb guys. I think they owe a little to Bay but that's based on a buyout clause that Alderson negotiated. So he got to this point, with lots of planning and preparation. Yes, revenue is likely way down from the 2010 numbers he was likely shown when he signed and part of that may be an inability to spend to keep fans coming, but he presided over that. This is silly. If they had hired me as GM, there would be no Minaya money on the books. This is not a feat by any stretch of the imagination. No, it's not a feat. my point is simply that the roster construction is his. the Mets/Madoff connection didn't really leak until after. At least, the extent of their losses and that they were going to be involved in the lawsuit. Perhaps they disclosed that to Sandy before hand. Perhaps not.

Yes. It wasn't until after. Two days after.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=asOFdfj1w3CU&refer=home

[Gwreck]

Ceetar wrote: the Mets/Madoff connection didn't really leak until after. At least, the extent of their losses and that they were going to be involved in the lawsuit. Perhaps they disclosed that to Sandy before hand. Perhaps not.

No. This is factually inaccurate.

The Madoff issue and that it would affect the Mets substantially was well known far before Sandy was hired. Dave Howard was arguing with Erin Arvelund about whether the Mets would have to sell the team on television in August 2009.

Alderson was hired after the 2010 season

[Ceetar]

"the extent of their losses and the lawsuit"

Everyone's going to confirmation bias this to hell anyway, but were assets frozen at that point? were they under litigation where numbers were mentioned to be as high as a billion? Ultimately they ended up losing, to them, a trivial amount in the law suit and there were even various reports that they ultimately made money with Madoff accounts.

It's all murky financial stuff that we'll never see. Nor will Sandy Alderson. Maybe he was not permitted to extend Reyes at that point, or raise payroll above revenue (depending how you calculate revenue), but we're beyond that now. The roster is his. There's a lot you can do with 90+ million, even if there are owner-imposed caps.

Arguing about the owners and "this is New York, we're special!" stuff is irrelevant. They're not going anywhere. Whatever the payroll limitations are that's his job to deal with. This is one of 30 MLB baseball teams, Sandy Alderson is the GM, and his job is to build a winning club. So far, as bright as the future appears when you squint at it from here, he hasn't done that.

[Edgy MD]

Erin Arvelund!

[Centerfield]

It's very difficult to discuss things with you.

When we started I thought we had opposing views. But by the end of your post, it seems like you're backing my position. Did I win the debate?

[metsmarathon]

i think he's done reasonably well to put together a team that appears to have a bright future (though it was brighter before harvey went all tommy john) without making any really bad moves that threaten to hamstring hte team for years to come.

i think hte biggest complaints for this season are hat the mets failed to spend money for hte sake of spending money. and that's really what signing stephen drew would be, plus a draft pick. the players i would have liked to see hte mets get were players that went elsewhere for more money than i would have liked to see them signed for. notably ellsbury and choo.

i think that his extended honeymoon comes in large part from the realization that he ahd two very long shadows from which to come out from - minaya's payroll and the wilpons finances. and he's still not all hte way clear of hte latter. he has made, for the most part, very astute trades and signings.

i think a B+ grade is very fair. it certainly has hte potential to go up from there.