People Who Hate Sandy Alderson

[Edgy MD]

As far as I'm concerned, he's welcome to a 10-year honeymoon.

He could have done better in his managerial choice. But he could have done far worse.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy MD wrote: He could have done better in his managerial choice. But he could have done far worse.

I agree with that. Terry is uninspiring, but not awful.

[Frayed Knot]

I think it's pretty clear that Alderson was hired [u:1i0cx1hn]because of the Madoff mess[/u:1i0cx1hn] and certainly not despite it or for reasons unconnected to it.

[nymr83]

Frayed Knot wrote: I think it's pretty clear that Alderson was hired because of the Madoff mess and certainly not despite it or for reasons unconnected to it.

I thought he was appointed pretty much with "Selig's Stamp of Approval" to sort out the mess

[Edgy MD]

It was fun to watch them go through a search and interview process when everybody and his sister knew that if Alderson was in the application pool, Anderson was going to get the job.

Does anybody even remember who the other candidates were? It was like "Get me three other candidates, none of them with experience in the big chair PLEASE, and make sure, you know, one of them is a minority."

I was just focused on them getting the process over with quickly so they could get started on cleaning up the mess.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: It's very difficult to discuss things with you. When we started I thought we had opposing views. But by the end of your post, it seems like you're backing my position. Did I win the debate?

No, I was always more or less agreeing with you, just branching out a little. I thought we were discussing Alderson's job, and were mostly in agreement on something along the lines of B+.

I don't buy into the narrative that he was MLB appointed and his main focus was always just to 'fix' the team. That's too 9-11 Truthie for me. Besides, then he's done. This year revenue will probably surpass, or at least be within the ballpark, of payroll. So is it time to move on? The Mets are more or less at the break-even point, again depending on your accounting, and have very little money coming off the books. This is where, imo, the jury is still out on the job he's done. When is he going to step up and commit? When Is he going to stop waffling on player contracts and say "I NEED this guy to round out my team" and make it happen?

[Edgy MD]

I think he's more or less said he's done. He's said he expects to do about two more seasons, hopefully to enjoy some of the fruit of what he's planted.

Here's hoping his team stays mostly in place to carry on his work.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: I think he's more or less said he's done. He's said he expects to do about two more seasons, hopefully to enjoy some of the fruit of what he's planted. Here's hoping his team stays mostly in place to carry on his work.

done as in "mission accomplished" not done as in "ready to retire". This team isn't likely a perennial contender as currently constructed and if he's not aiming to make it such he shouldn't be here two more years.

[Edgy MD]

Done as in, "I'm winding down my tenure with this team."

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Adam Rubin, in case you haven't noticed. Was pissed at Sandy for not answering questions yesterday.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/86375/analysis-the-problem-isnt-the-manager

NEW YORK -- Terry Collins got beat up on Twitter this weekend for in-game maneuvering that included Chris Young sacrifice bunting, Dillon Gee departing at 81 pitches and, well, just about everything else. Even his job security began to be questioned. The bottom line, though: Jabs at Collins, who has somehow kept his teams afloat and playing hard despite inferior talent, are misdirected. That criticism instead ought to be directed at general manager Sandy Alderson. Alderson is now in his fourth season as Mets GM. And he appears headed for his fourth straight losing season, although Sunday�s 5-4, 11-inning, comeback win against the Philadelphia Phillies demonstrated the Mets (17-19) continue to have fight in them. This regime has been peddling the future for four years now. And at some point they might actually deliver. If Noah Syndergaard emerges as a frontline starter, Zack Wheeler truly blossoms and Matt Harvey returns clicking on all cylinders next season, that triumvirate might lead the Mets to legitimate contention in 2016, 2017 and beyond. Of course, that presumes the Mets can find some bats. And it also presumes other teams aren�t better at building through young talent than the Mets. The Miami Marlins have the pitching too, headlined by Jose Fernandez, and they have the young outfield bats the Mets lack -- including Giancarlo Stanton, Marcell Ozuna and Christian Yelich. Perhaps the Mets can swing a trade for a bat using excess pitching, but it is not here now. If, when Alderson interviewed with the Wilpons after Omar Minaya was ousted at the end of the 2010 season, Alderson had promised his first winning season would come six years down the road, do you think he would have been hired? There ought to have been more competitiveness, at least by now, while fans await the future faces of the organization. And that requires better identification of talent by the front office. Look, there is no indication Alderson is in any danger of losing his job. Yes, he is in the final season of his original four-year deal, which is estimated to annually pay him $2.5 million. And, yes, his team option for 2015 has not yet been picked up -- at least not picked up and publicly acknowledged. Still, the Wilpons have gone so far down the road with Alderson that even if the timeline to win is a lot longer than they expected, it is likely they ride it out to see where it leads rather than bail now and start with a new GM and new plan that could elongate the process. The painfully slow rebuilding, which eats at the fans, has to gnaw at the Wilpons, too, because their financial lifeblood is derived from revenue from attendance. I�ve covered this team for a dozen seasons as the beat writer, and I have never seen this level of combined anger, distrust, frustration and dismay directed collectively at the organization by its fans. By now, even if the Mets weren�t challenging the Washington Nationals and Atlanta Braves for the division, there ought to have been positive energy in the ballpark, like there was in 2005 with the �New Mets� -- a palpable feeling something bigger was looming. There is no Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran now because the Mets do not throw around those types of dollars anymore. And the frustration is partly a function of the payroll that undoubtedly has handcuffed Alderson. Yet the frustration also is a result of an I�m-smarter-than-you smugness that fans perceive is coming from the front office, and which seems so out of place given its actual accomplishments beyond auctioning off Beltran and R.A. Dickey. Forget about the Mets� hitting approach, which you can tell by Keith Hernandez�s repeated, audible, on-air sighs is not exactly the route the �86 Mets took to the organization�s last championship. Alderson�s �Moneyball� pedigree was supposed to mean the organization could identify low-cost players to keep the team competitive in the years until the farm system really started spitting out players. Instead, with rare exceptions such as LaTroy Hawkins, there have been swings and misses and more swings and misses, particularly in the bullpen. To name a few: D.J. Carrasco, Frank Francisco, Ramon Ramirez (in a trade for Angel Pagan), Scott Atchison, Brandon Lyon and now Jose Valverde. The Mets valued Kyle Farnsworth so little at the end of spring training that they released him rather than pay $100,000 to send to the minors. How he became the closer speaks to the negligence in failing to have an adequate backup plan for Bobby Parnell. Parnell was no guarantee to be OK as he returned from surgery to repair a herniated disk in his neck that cost him the final two months of last season. And there was no apparent safety net in place, with the exception of a misguided hope that Valverde would be better than he was last season, when he was released from Triple-A by the Detroit Tigers. The Mets seem to always need to win the trade, or there is inaction. Did they really need to still evaluate Ike Davis versus Lucas Duda in spring training after seeing them for the three previous years? When the Mets indicated they were not pursuing Jose Abreu during the offseason because they already had three first basemen, how can you have full faith in their evaluation skills? Wasn�t it entirely predictable how Ruben Tejada would work out at shortstop? So the Mets enter the Subway Series at 17-19, still undoubtedly trying to sell to "True New Yorkers" that 90 wins is possible and that they ought to come to the ballpark and support the team. There may come a day in the next few seasons that the Mets realize that 90-win goal. And then people might praise Alderson for leaving the organization in such good shape. But if the price was, say, six losing seasons under his watch first -- plus the two from Minaya that preceded it -- was that really great front-office work? Or if you fail enough seasons, is it simply inevitable that at some point you�ll accrue enough young talent to be competitive again?

[Ceetar]

Well of course. When someone gets a job over you you're always critical.

[Edgy MD]

That was a jaw-dropping column to read this morning.

[metirish]

Not much for me to pick at except this

There is no Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran now because the Mets do not throw around those types of dollars anymore.

Granderson......

[stevejrogers]

metirish wrote: Not much for me to pick at except this There is no Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran now because the Mets do not throw around those types of dollars anymore. Granderson......

And in a lot of ways, UNLIKE Martinez and Beltran, the move could be seen as a move done solely to say "SEE! We are acting like a big market franchise!" and very much not a move that should have been made.

[Ceetar]

SteveJRogers wrote: metirish wrote: Not much for me to pick at except this There is no Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran now because the Mets do not throw around those types of dollars anymore. Granderson...... And in a lot of ways, UNLIKE Martinez and Beltran, the move could be seen as a move done solely to say "SEE! We are acting like a big market franchise!" and very much not a move that should have been made.

Yes, but any move that's not signing a future HOFer can be seen as such. You can see the arguments on both sides with Granderson and most people tend to agree with the one that fits their notions of how the Mets are run.

[metirish]

Well, IIRC the courting and then signing of Pedro was as much about "hey look at us, we can attract the big name players" as it was about getting a great pitcher(on the downslide), that signing then helped attract the other players.....that is what was peddled anyway.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I don't understand Rogers comment even a little.

If the Mets wanted to "make a statement" about their willingness to pay full retail for brand name players there were better ways of doing that than signing Granderson.

The Rubin column has me all pissed off. He's mad about the lack of access, and obviously sides with the "fans" who insulted by a "I'm-smarter-than-you" attitude.

Post's Kevin Kernan also butthurt.

All right, the Mets have their emotional opening to get the Subway Series rolling and their season finally moving in the right direction. It�s time to put up or shut up, starting with general manager Sandy Alderson. Silent Sandy declined multiple media requests Sunday to explain what is going on with his team following the Mother�s Day Miracle win over the Phillies, a 5-4, 11-inning victory at Citi Field that included a three-run ninth-inning to tie the game and Ruben Tejada�s walkoff single against a depleted Phillies bullpen that did not have closer Jonathan Papelbon. Now it will be four straight against the Yankees, starting Monday night at Yankee Stadium. Remember, the Mets swept the Subway Series last year. Bartolo Colon will go against Hiroki Kuroda to start. �The energy in the Subway Series is an animal of its own,�� manager Terry Collins said. �But to go in on a positive note is big, especially to get us off what�s happened here in the last six days. We were a ground ball or a base hit away of winning four of those six, so to get us going again was big. Our guys relish the challenge in front of them.�� �We just needed a win,�� admitted Daniel Murphy, who hit a monster two-run home run in the ninth to bring the Mets within one. Then Chris Young ended an 0-for-18 streak with a double and wound up scoring the tying run on a ground out by Juan Lagares. That is not to be confused with Tejada�s 0-for-17 streak, snapped earlier in the game. Tejada was playing because Wilmer Flores is sick. Over the last five games, the Mets� five through nine hitters were batting .109. An emotionally drained Collins admitted he had to �think outside the box�� to get the offense going after losing five straight and eight of nine. That included giving Anthony Recker the green light on a 3-0 pitch, which is frowned upon in Alderson�s Bases Per Out World. �You can call it desperation,�� Collins said of his moves. �I�d rather have it a little more positive than standing on the edge of the cliff.�� The Mets still are not saying if Jenrry Mejia will be a closer or a Wednesday starter for the Subway Series, but Collins was tremendously encouraged by Jeurys Familia�s big performance Sunday, 1 �/? innings of hitless relief, and said Familia is moving closer to getting the closer�s role. In all things Mets, though, the manager has to check with the GM, who makes those final decisions. The two men met after the game to talk over plans, but Sir Sandy, through a spokesperson, declined to meet with the media. The 17-19 Mets need to have Eric Young Jr. in the leadoff role because of the energy he brings to that spot in the moribund lineup. They are 2-8 when he does not start. Young picked up three hits and scored two runs on Sunday. �This win may really be the win that gets us going,�� Collins said. The win was a big win for Collins, who cannot afford to have too many losing streaks. General managers don�t fire themselves, they fire managers. The Mets are short in the bullpen and do not have enough hitting, but the bottom line is Alderson essentially put Collins on notice with the challenge the Mets are a 90-win team. What was the energy level in the dugout when Tejada got his winning single against Jeff Manship? �Everybody left, the coaching staff was about the only guys left out there,�� Collins said with a laugh. As for calling up some young, fresh arms, Collins deferred to his GM, but said: �I think it�s going to be pretty exciting when they get here. We�ve seen what it has done in Miami. we�ve seen what it has done in Pittsburgh, in St. Louis, but it�s got to be the right time, and I think that is what Sandy is real good at, having a feel for what is the right time.�� There�s no time to get rolling like Subway Series time.

[Ceetar]

ouch ouch ouch. That Kernan article hurt. I couldn't finish. All I got from that is "I was going to write up Sandy Alderson's thoughts but he didn't speak to the media today so I'm just going to pretend I know his opinions on things and write it anyway."

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

"Sir Sandy?"

[Ceetar]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: "Sir Sandy?"

As in "The high and mighty thinks he's above us and can't be bothered to talk to the serfs."

borderline unprofessional.

[Edgy MD]

"Thinks he's smarter than everybody" is what you write about somebody you resent because you know he's smarter than you.

How petty.

[Frayed Knot]

The line about swinging on 3-0 pitches being "frowned upon in Alderson�s Bases Per Out World" comes off a just another case of a writer treating mis-interpreting the strategy, which itself is often lumped in under the "Moneyball" label, to be about maximizing walks to the exclusion of just about everything else.
Rubin touches on the same thing with his comments about Keith not approving of the approach.

[Edgy MD]

I�ve covered this team for a dozen seasons as the beat writer, and I have never seen this level of combined anger, distrust, frustration and dismay directed collectively at the organization by its fans.

We need an index on this sort of thing. The "worst ever" statements are used too liberally, often with an intention of creating the atmosphere one purports to describe.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Yeah the Keith thing browns my biscuits too, because if you're lazy enough you'll forget that Cashen hadn't produced a winner, much less Keith Hernandez (for another month and a half), when lined up side by side with Alderson's turnaround. Although, Strawberry was about to make his debut, nobody'd even heard of Dwight Gooden, but the story of the year was what a POS Foster was turning out to be.

One thing the press hasn't looked into enough from my perspective was verifying the accuracy of Hudgens' remark that "all the good teams are doing this" from the DiComo article that sort of revealed this philosophy.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Edgy MD wrote: I�ve covered this team for a dozen seasons as the beat writer, and I have never seen this level of combined anger, distrust, frustration and dismay directed collectively at the organization by its fans. We need an index on this sort of thing. The "worst ever" statements are used too liberally, often with an intention of creating the atmosphere one purports to describe.

Oh, I think the fan dismay thing is probably true (easier than ever to express displeasure thru social media) though it has less to do with Alderson specifically than it does with the events that preceded him and defined his term.

[stevejrogers]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Yeah the Keith thing browns my biscuits too, because if you're lazy enough you'll forget that Cashen hadn't produced a winner, much less Keith Hernandez (for another month and a half), when lined up side by side with Alderson's turnaround. Although, Strawberry was about to make his debut, nobody'd even heard of Dwight Gooden, but the story of the year was what a POS Foster was turning out to be. One thing the press hasn't looked into enough from my perspective was verifying the accuracy of Hudgens' remark that "all the good teams are doing this" from the DiComo article that sort of revealed this philosophy.

Of course that was under the stewardship, 100% of Nelson Doubleday, who wanted a winner, and not the Wilpons...or so the Saint Nelson revisionists would want you to believe!

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: The line about swinging on 3-0 pitches being "frowned upon in Alderson�s Bases Per Out World" comes off a just another case of a writer treating mis-interpreting the strategy, which itself is often lumped in under the "Moneyball" label, to be about maximizing walks to the exclusion of just about everything else. Rubin touches on the same thing with his comments about Keith not approving of the approach.

One of my takeaways from Moneyball is that just because someone is a former player doesn't mean they really have any clue how to build a winner and sometimes just the opposite. It's easy to preach a philosophy when you have/had a talent level that's maybe not present in everyone you're preaching about.

Not that i don't value Keith (And moreso Ron)'s opinion on these matters, but there's more than one right way.


And on the 3-0 pitch, the Mets philosophy has always been reported as a 'swing at your pitch' type philosophy. Recker got it, swung, and drove it 350 feet. he pulls that just a wee bit more or less and it's a double that can't be reached and a little harder and it's gone. I'll take that swing, on that pitch, in that situation, every single time.

[Edgy MD]

Oh, I think the fan dismay thing is probably true (easier than ever to express displeasure thru social media) though it has less to do with Alderson specifically than it does with the events that preceded him and defined his term.

Maybe, but by the same token ("easier to express displeasure thru social media"), then, virtually every team would therefore be absorbing more vitriol than ever before. To some extent, it would appear even before you adjust for a team's current success rate.

I've heard such comments often enough, but emotionally, most of us tend to live in the present. This is the guy who broke the Tony Bernazard story, and ended up in the middle of it. That was a pretty diseased little cesspool of fan antipathy going on then.

Eleven years ago the Mets were limping home in 2003 with Art Howe and Mike Glavine and Jay Bell. Attendance fell off 17%. It fell off 22% following the second collapse of 2008, despite a new stadium. It's actually modestly rebounded so far this season, relative to the league.

Maybe it is true, but a guy reporting that negativity is at an all-time high while projecting his own negativity is not to be trusted. And yeah, making that negativity about Alderson is missing the story almost entirely.

[Frayed Knot]

Ceetar wrote: The line about swinging on 3-0 pitches being "frowned upon in Alderson�s Bases Per Out World" comes off a just another case of a writer treating mis-interpreting the strategy, which itself is often lumped in under the "Moneyball" label, to be about maximizing walks to the exclusion of just about everything else. Rubin touches on the same thing with his comments about Keith not approving of the approach. One of my takeaways from Moneyball is that just because someone is a former player doesn't mean they really have any clue how to build a winner and sometimes just the opposite. It's easy to preach a philosophy when you have/had a talent level that's maybe not present in everyone you're preaching about. Not that i don't value Keith (And moreso Ron)'s opinion on these matters, but there's more than one right way. And on the 3-0 pitch, the Mets philosophy has always been reported as a 'swing at your pitch' type philosophy. Recker got it, swung, and drove it 350 feet. he pulls that just a wee bit more or less and it's a double that can't be reached and a little harder and it's gone. I'll take that swing, on that pitch, in that situation, every single time.

Your last paragraph begins to get at the problem.
I don't see this as a Keith is wrong kind of thing or even Keith disagreeing with Alderson et al. To me it's just another case of media people STILL misunderstanding, or at the very least, still over-simplifying, anything that they can file under the general heading of Moneyball.

Kernan even uses Sandy's moniker of 'Bases per out' to sum up the philosophy but then goes on to imply that NYM mgmt would rather have the walk there. But if getting on via a walk is better than an out you know what gives you an even better bases/out ratio than a walk? - a double in the gap, that's what! Recker, by doing what you said and what Keith preaches (and Ralph for all these years) which is get a good/predictable pitch and attack it, was trying to do just that. "Plate discipline" isn't merely seeing as many pitches as possible, sometimes it's jumping on a 2-0 pitch and smacking the snot out of it and I don't think there's anything in the Alderson regime that would disagree with any of that.
This thinking that Keith--who walked more than just about all his contemporaries--would somehow raise a dissent with any of this is, again, I think a misinterpretation by mediots who think it's all about walks. I expect that from Francesa and his callers, I hope for better from everyday guys.



* side note: in the Oakland/Nats game yesterday Derek Norris (like Recker a low-BA/decent power part-time catcher) hit two 3R HRs off Gio Gonzalez in the first two innings. BOTH HRs were on 3-0 counts.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Guest

[Edgy MD]

Nobody was more in favor of taking 3-0 than Ralph.

It wasn't Moneyball with him, of course. He just figured that he's going to see the same pitch twice, so he might as well (a) force the pitcher to throw it over the plate twice, and ( get a good look at it the first time before cutting loose the second.