Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Braun

[Benjamin Grimm]

Kinda like Josh Satin's eyebrows!

[Frayed Knot]

It's certainly an interesting topic from a Milwaukee point of view: He was the face of THEIR franchise, then lied to THEM, disappointed THEIR fans, and THEY get out from under a very large contract, even if it's one that the player's performance is still earning.
Depending on how they feel about all that they could be running the gamut between slightly interested to wildly interested (or anywhere in between) in using this moment, now that the suspension has run out but before he suits up with them again, to cut ties.

[TransMonk]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: It's not like he's running for president. OK, so bad example.

"Read my lips...No. New. Taxes.", "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", "We have evidence of weapons of mass destruction"...yes, historically bad example. *wink*

metsguyinmichigan wrote: If we can get the Brewers to eat a bunch of his contract and if he can still mash, I'd be on board. The goal is to win, not win only with guys whom I'd invite over to watch "Field of Dreams" or babysit my kids.

Nah, winning doesn't interest me if it's done with help from a guy who is going to knowingly lie to his fans (MILLIONS of people including children who idolize him as a role model).

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Raising the Apple a whole bunch of times goes a long way towards redemption.

Unless he comes out to say that he lied, he was wrong and that he will never put his fans in that position again, I'd have a hard time trusting him.

There have been dirty players. There have been players who cheated and doped and used drugs. Players who have cheated on or abused their wives. There have been players that have let me down in so many other ways (many from the '86 team).

But Braun publicly proclaimed himself innocent and asked his fans to stand by him. And the majority of them did...until he crept off to serve his suspension without any explanation. It may be easy to say, "Man, he duped all of those Brewer fans, but he sure is mashing for us," but I can't so that. He's got some explaining to do before I would ever root for him.

This is not a decision I would make lightly. I can't imagine not rooting for the Mets. But I also can't imagine rooting for Braun. This is one slugger that I hope doesn't come to New York.

It's certainly an interesting topic from a Milwaukee point of view: He was the face of THEIR franchise, then lied to THEM, disappointed THEIR fans, and THEY get out from under a very large contract, even if it's one that the player's performance is still earning. Depending on how they feel about all that they could be running the gamut between slightly interested to wildly interested (or anywhere in between) in using this moment, now that the suspension has run out but before he suits up with them again, to cut ties.

I know a lot of Brewers fans that HATE Braun. Actually, I'd say the majority of them that I know do. Given the choice between watching a struggling team with Braun or watching a struggling team with the rookie OF Davis, I imagine most might lean towards Davis.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Unless he comes out to say that he lied, he was wrong and that he will never put his fans in that position again, I'd have a hard time trusting him.

Hasn't he been calling season ticket holders and apologizing? And what are you trusting him to do?

No way am I condoning what he did. But I don't know if that makes him a baseball leper, either.

If you knew about half the stuff the 1986 team was doing off the field -- presuming the Pearlman book is accurate -- would you have still rooted for it?

[TransMonk]

I've read the Pearlman book and it had some bad news. But I was 11 in 1986 and didn't know any better. Additionally, the antics of the '86ers were never aimed at me directly as a fan.

He doesn't have to be a baseball leper, but I'd rather he joined the Yankees.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Unless he comes out to say that he lied, he was wrong and that he will never put his fans in that position again, I'd have a hard time trusting him. Hasn't he been calling season ticket holders and apologizing? And what are you trusting him to do?

Yes. Yes, he has.

No way am I condoning what he did. But I don't know if that makes him a baseball leper, either. If you knew about half the stuff the 1986 team was doing off the field -- presuming the Pearlman book is accurate -- would you have still rooted for it?

Fair point. Except, y'know, time doesn't work that way and all, do it?

Really, though.. if he's contrite and hereafter clean, it's not that tough to reconcile, and, frankly, not a terrible story for the kids; it might even be a good entry point to discussions about fairness and forgiveness and lying/contrition. I mean, I'm not buying my daughter a shirt, but... if it's coming at an Ike-and-Montero-shaped price? Gimme gimme.

[Fman99]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Really, though.. if he's contrite and hereafter clean, it's not that tough to reconcile, and, frankly, not a terrible story for the kids; it might even be a good entry point to discussions about fairness and forgiveness and lying/contrition. I mean, I'm not buying my daughter a shirt, but... if it's coming at an Ike-and-Montero-shaped price? Gimme gimme.

Yep. Though I'm prone to over-forgiveness for guys who hit a lot of home runs in a Mets jersey. Even those who might be, like myself, super snarky Jew douches.

[Frayed Knot]

It's certainly an interesting topic from a Milwaukee point of view: He was the face of THEIR franchise, then lied to THEM, disappointed THEIR fans, and THEY get out from under a very large contract, even if it's one that the player's performance is still earning. Depending on how they feel about all that they could be running the gamut between slightly interested to wildly interested (or anywhere in between) in using this moment, now that the suspension has run out but before he suits up with them again, to cut ties. I know a lot of Brewers fans that HATE Braun. Actually, I'd say the majority of them that I know do. Given the choice between watching a struggling team with Braun or watching a struggling team with the rookie OF Davis, I imagine most might lean towards Davis.

I was thinking more about how Brewer mgmt might feel about the whole deal - although certainly their reading of how the fans feel would be part of that.
I heard a quote this morning while flipping the radio dial (although I don't recall the specific source) which said the Brewers would love to deal him 'just to get away from his ego'. No doubt that Braun has an ego over and above all the PED stuff; Tim Kurkjian tells the story about how Braun, as a 1st year player in the minors, was telling everyone within earshot that he could hit .300 in the majors "right now". I suspect it's the rare MLer who doesn't have an ego even though there are certainly differences is how they're displayed and I wouldn't have a tough time believing that Braun's is a bit more out there than most.

[Ceetar]

well sure, half the knock on Lucas Duda is that he's not an egotistical maniac and therefore has "confidence issues"

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Hmm. Hmm.

Does anyone else smell a madcap, hijink-filled, ultimately-heartwarming body-switching playoff-race scramble?

[MFS62]

Fman99 wrote: Really, though.. if he's contrite and hereafter clean, it's not that tough to reconcile, and, frankly, not a terrible story for the kids; it might even be a good entry point to discussions about fairness and forgiveness and lying/contrition. I mean, I'm not buying my daughter a shirt, but... if it's coming at an Ike-and-Montero-shaped price? Gimme gimme. Yep. Though I'm prone to over-forgiveness for guys who hit a lot of home runs in a Mets jersey. Even those who might be, like myself, super snarky Jew douches.

and Metsguyinmichigan:

The goal is to win, not win only with guys whom I'd invite over to watch "Field of Dreams" or babysit my kids.

But, before they were married, It would have been ok for him to date one of my daughters.

Later

[Benjamin Grimm]

Mike Puma, New York Post wrote: A club source discounted the idea of the Mets orchestrating a deal with the Brewers for former MVP Ryan Braun, who probably can use a change of scenery after lying about his involvement in the Biogenesis performance-enhancing drug scandal. The Brewers have interest in Ike Davis, but any package for Braun � who still is owed $113 million � likely would need to center around top pitching prospect Noah Syndergaard, whom Alderson has said is off limits.

[Lefty Specialist]

As far as Syndergaard goes, I'm sure hoping 'off-limits' really means 'off limits', not 'we're saying he's off-limits to drive up his eventual trade value'.

[Ceetar]

Lefty Specialist wrote: As far as Syndergaard goes, I'm sure hoping 'off-limits' really means 'off limits', not 'we're saying he's off-limits to drive up his eventual trade value'.

I'd trade him for Braun in a heartbeat.

[Lefty Specialist]

The thing about all of this is that there's absolutely no real indication that Braun's even available. This is an article citing Matt Cerrone talking to 'people familiar with the team's thinking', which could be Bernie Brewer for all we know.

[metirish]

@Ken_Rosenthal
#Brewers GM Doug Melvin: �Absolutely nothing� to talk of Braun to #Mets. �Our intentions are not to trade him.� Braun has partial no-trade.

Cerrone then gets his nickers in a twist

Matthew Cerrone ?@matthewcerrone 2h
@Ken_Rosenthal who reported Braun was being traded to the Mets? I said Mets have talked about him. Is there a report saying more than that?

Short Ken

Ken Rosenthal ?@Ken_Rosenthal 2h
@matthewcerrone Said �talk.� And there was talk yesterday after what you wrote.

Cerrone being a bad sport

Matthew Cerrone ?@matthewcerrone 2h
@Ken_Rosenthal that's a shame. it would be nice if people read entire posts instead of just reacting to headlines. i'm sure you understand.

Instigators

Craig Petraglia ?@petrags99 2h
@matthewcerrone @Ken_Rosenthal fight fight fight

BobsBlitz.com ?@BobsBlitz 2h
@matthewcerrone @AVSNY @Ken_Rosenthal Internet age...even 30 sec videos are too long.....

[b[short answer Ken

Ken Rosenthal ?@Ken_Rosenthal 1h
@matthewcerrone Yep.


Contrite lickarse Cerrone

Matthew Cerrone ?@matthewcerrone 52m
@ken_rosenthal @petrags99 i'm thankful for ken, he's been great to me, an awesome reporter, i wouldn't fight with him for anything.


taking the higher ground Ken

Ken Rosenthal ?@Ken_Rosenthal 51m
@matthewcerrone @petrags99 It is no fight at all. I thought it was important to get Brewers GM on record about possibility of trading Braun.

[Vic Sage]

i have no issue with signing a cheater who lied about cheating. There are known cheaters in the HOF... guys know to have threwn illegal pitches, used illegal bats, took illegal drugs (even PEDs like amphetamines), and baseball nodded and winked at that behavior, and still does. And when guys try to fool an ump into thinking a trapped ball is a catch, or a missed swipe is a tag, or lean into an inside pitch to take a HBP when the rules require them to get out of the way... this is called "gamesmanship" and most fans smile and hope that their guy gets away with it.

Then `Roids comes along, and congressional hearings, and so suddenly MLB (having profited enormously from the drug use) pulls a Claude Rains/Inspector Renault routine and says "shocked! i'm shocked to learn about gambling in this establishment!" and the Player's Union says "here are your winnings, monsieur inspector," and then they start a witch hunt to distract from their own role as co-conspirators, which continues to this day. The notion that "well, there's cheating and then there's CHEATING!" is a double standard that serves MLB and nobody else.

Now I would understand HOF voters considering this behavior if they were doing so with some consistency... how many guys did they exclude from the 60s and 70s who played loaded on greenies (and so the player had the energy to get out there and perform on a day where he might not have gotten out there at all), and did they vote for Gaylord Perry and Don Sutton (among others), and you know that Ty Cobb was a hideous human being even by the standards of his time. But there are no real enforceable criteria, so voters can choose to apply or not apply whatever standards they choose, and so Bonds and Clemens are out; Cobb, Sutton and Perry are in. Whatever, that's fine. But the HOF is a museum and should include all of baseball's history, not just the whitewashed bits.

Yes, I understand the gambling thing, since that goes to the credibility of the contest and the survival of the sport, since without the prohibition baseball could have gone the way of professional wrestling as an "exhibition" rather than a sport.

And i would also understand not wanting to have a guy convicted as a violent felon on my team's roster; rules of civilization trump MLB rules, and i would have a problem cheering for such a fellow even if his terrible off-field activities had nothing to do with baseball. But i'm sorry... trying to win so much that you look for a competitive edge, and then choosing to lie about it rather than deal with the hypocritical response to your actions from MLB, and the MLBPA and other players, and the public, is simply not in the same hemisphere as being a convicted rapist. Even the behavior of the `86 Mets, based on the Pearlman book, is more objectionable to me than 'roiding and lying about it.

So not trading for an MVP in his prime because he took `roids when many in the sport were, and then lied about it in the media, seems misguided to me. If the price is right, Braun can bunk at my house, if no one else will have him. And i might even let him babysit my kids. Doc and Daryl, on the other hand...

[Edgy MD]

It's kind of blowing it up to turn this into a Hall of Fame discussion, though.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I agree with Vic. Also, I don't get the outrage over the fact that Braun then lied. In for a penny, in for a pound. What was he supposed to do? Take the steroids and then send the fans a secret note admitting that he's on steroids but that they should mums the word should Bud Selig and MLB suspect anything? Should Braun recieve more punishment because he fought the charges against him?

[Edgy MD]

Well, more than a few people, once caught, came clean, apologized to their fans and the team, and took their medicine. He lied to his friends, fans, teammates, and fellow players, and actively solicited them to put their own honor on the line to defend him. He claimed an anti-semitic conspiracy, and threw innocent civilians under the bus, damaging their lives, reputations, and careers.

So, when you ask what was he supposed to do, well, not that.

[TransMonk]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: What was he supposed to do?

Apologize and take his punishment like a man. It's simple really.

pHBDeZnlaP4

He's a piece of shit.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I assume we're talking about the 2011 FedEx matter. Braun beat those charges, albeit on a technicality. Why should he then have admitted to breaking an MLB rule when MLB couldn't prove its case in the first place? He didn't fight the Biogenesis matter. What am I missing?

TransMonk wrote: He's a piece of shit.

You might be right. But I'd take him, nonetheless.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Guest

[Lefty Specialist]

You go the Melky Cabrera route. You admit wrongdoing immediately, apologize to your teammates and you take your punishment without whining even a little tiny bit. He could have fought his suspension but didn't. After his suspension was over, he was eligible to return for the postseason, the Giants said no, and he again accepted it and kept his mouth shut.

If you're caught, don't act like an asshole. It's fairly simple.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Lefty Specialist wrote: If you're caught, don't act like an asshole. It's fairly simple.

But he beat the charges. His team came up with a viable defense and it stood up. Are all accuseds supposed to concede and roll over?

[Ceetar]

Lefty Specialist wrote: You go the Melky Cabrera route. You admit wrongdoing immediately, apologize to your teammates and you take your punishment without whining even a little tiny bit. He could have fought his suspension but didn't. After his suspension was over, he was eligible to return for the postseason, the Giants said no, and he again accepted it and kept his mouth shut. If you're caught, don't act like an asshole. It's fairly simple.

also, create a fake website and pretend you bought it there.

The first one was more ridiculous, this biogenesis stuff is an arbitrary witch hunt. Braun took a suspension longer than he deserved until the rules for a failed test, which he doesn't have.

Of course he should've fought it. going the anti-semite route was too far, but not fighting it. sure, he got off the same way you get off when you fight a speeding ticket and the cop doesn't show up to court, but in the end you don't have a speeding ticket, and Braun got his paycheck for 50games and no suspension on his record.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Lefty Specialist wrote: You go the Melky Cabrera route. You admit wrongdoing immediately, apologize to your teammates and you take your punishment without whining even a little tiny bit.

Who knows what Melky might've done if he though he had a plausible defense. As it was, didn't he consider faking a web-site? Criminal defense lawyers, for example, plea bargain based on the perceived weight of the evidence. It's the proof, not the facts.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

The whole culture of doping is such that the robbers are always a few steps ahead of the cops. "Arbitrary witch hunts" on shaky evidence are one of the few techniques at MLB's disposal with the goal not of justice necessarily but to cripple the movement by making pariahs of users they can snare.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: The whole culture of doping is such that the robbers are always a few steps ahead of the cops. "Arbitrary witch hunts" on shaky evidence are one of the few techniques at MLB's disposal with the goal not of justice necessarily but to cripple the movement by making pariahs of users they can snare.

which is why it's a perception fight and one A-Rod and Braun should absolutely fight if they don't want to be the pariahs. They have rights too.

but then the goal isn't actually to make the game clean but to look like they want to make the game clean.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I disagree with that. If they only wanted the game to "look" clean they'd be like the NFL or NBA and pretend random testing is doing the job. If anything, baseball's pursuit of high-profile takedowns has had the effect of magnifying this idea there's a steroid issue unique to baseball.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I disagree with that. If they only wanted the game to "look" clean they'd be like the NFL or NBA and pretend random testing is doing the job. If anything, baseball's pursuit of high-profile takedowns has had the effect of magnifying this idea there's a steroid issue unique to baseball.

Because the people, media, etc, care more about steroids in baseball.

but arbitrarily going after the 'big guys' on possibly sketchy (or no) evidence is about putting forth an effort more than cleaning anything up.

This is ONE doctor/clinic that got around that would provide good stuff. How many other clinics around the country do you think there are? (And if Jetes was such a good leader, wouldn't he make sure his teammates had the names of the 'secret' ones?)