No 'han, literally

[metsmarathon]

as much as i would love to see wheeler open the season with the mets, i would much more happily trade 20 days of him this year for 162 days of him in 6 years. it's kindof a no-brainer for a team that doesn't particularly look like it's going to be a contender this season.

if the mets were in more of a win-now mode, then sure, maybe you start the season with him if you think he'd contribute more than hefner. but we're building for the future. lets keep him around for more of it.

[Edgy MD]

It seems strange that teams should have to make that choice.

Two painful questions:

[list:3ibre9uo][*:3ibre9uo]Any notion that Terry's nightmare is true? That Johan re-injured himself because Terry let him go the distance for the no-hitter. (If Terry's culpable, than I and many other fans certainly are.) The timeline certainly supports that scenario, statistically.

[/*:m:3ibre9uo]
[*:3ibre9uo]Any notion that the culprit is Johan's chip-on-his-surgically-reparied-shoulder premature trip to the mound earlier in spring, to show the beat writers and Mets he's more a man than they were whispering? Maybe he was already in trouble but that was the straw that broke the camel's shoulder socket, so to speak.[/*:m:3ibre9uo][/list:u:3ibre9uo]

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy MD wrote: Any notion that Terry's nightmare is true? That Johan re-injured himself because Terry let him go the distance for the no-hitter. (If Terry's culpable, than I and many other fans certainly are.) The timeline certainly supports that scenario, statistically.

I don't think so, but we'll never know for sure.

Edgy MD wrote: Any notion that the culprit is Johan's chip-on-his-surgically-reparied-shoulder premature trip to the mound earlier in spring, to show the beat writers and Mets he's more a man than they were whispering? Maybe he was already in trouble but that was the straw that broke the camel's shoulder socket, so to speak.

This may be more likely. I think Sandy was asked about it at the press conference; it seems someone asked if the Mets were going to try to void the final year of the contract because Santana's throwing session that day was unauthorized and, perhaps, ill-advised. Sandy's response was that they weren't thinking along those lines.

[Ceetar]

• Any notion that Terry's nightmare is true? That Johan re-injured himself because Terry let him go the distance for the no-hitter. (If Terry's culpable, than I and many other fans certainly are.) The timeline certainly supports that scenario, statistically.
  
  
• Any notion that the culprit is Johan's chip-on-his-surgically-reparied-shoulder premature trip to the mound earlier in spring, to show the beat writers and Mets he's more a man than they were whispering? Maybe he was already in trouble but that was the straw that broke the camel's shoulder socket, so to speak.

Edgy MD wrote: It seems strange that teams should have to make that choice. Two painful questions:

I don't think so. (Did he get an MRI when they shut him down last year? I thought I remember hearing "No damage in his shoulder" but maybe they didn't check.) Can you tear a capsule, a repaired one even, doing normal things like say reaching for the flour on the top shelf at home?

I don't think it was his random mound visit this Spring either. He was having trouble building arm strength even before that. It seems like more of a "discomfort/can't get loose" than a "my shoulder hurts!" Although when he originally tore it he wasn't unable to pitch either and was reporting the pain in his 'chest area' if I recall.

If it's even torn that is. Both doctors confirmed the 'probable' status according to Alderson. I don't know what the difference is.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Santana the Guinea Pig?


Johan Santana's Mets Career Is Over

Johan Santana is done. He has another capsule tear, the same shoulder injury that sidelined him for all of 2011. He'll make the final decision this weekend whether to undergo surgery, the same surgery he had in Sept. of 2010, but this isn't the sort of thing that gets better with rest. He'll go under the knife, and won't play another game in a Mets uniform, and maybe not anywhere else either. Humans weren't meant to be pitchers, especially not ones as great for as long as Santana was. GM Sandy Alderson confirmed the MRI diagnosis last night, as the Mets were preparing to break camp. Santana has re-torn the anterior capsule in his left shoulder, his throwing shoulder. "I think in all likelihood Johan will be lost to the Mets for the season,� Alderson said. Santana signed a six-year, $137 million deal after being traded to the Mets before the 2008 season. He would only play parts of four seasons in New York, and for much of those he was great. Not as great as in Minnesota, where he was the best pitcher in the world for three years or so mid-decade and seemed destined for the Hall of Fame, but still dominant, with an out pitch�the circle change�that's supposed to put less stress on a player's arm. After missing all of 2011, Santana seemed to return to form last year. He looked like the Santana of old for the first half of the season, culminating in the first no-hitter in Mets franchise history. He stayed in that one for 134 pitches, a career high, and was never the same again. The Mets say they have no idea how Santana re-injured his shoulder, but there's going to be debate about leaving him in that magical night in June, a decision manager Terry Collins agonized over and Santa endorsed unconditionally. Here's a shocking fact: medical science is nearly helpless when it comes to Santana's specific injury. It seems odd, in a sporting landscape where a frayed ligament can be replaced by a tendon from the leg or from a dead person and we expect that player to come back stronger, but the shoulder capsule is a strange beast. The capsule is a mass of tissue that nearly completely surrounds the ball-and-socket joint of the shoulder. Rather than containing defined ligaments, there are thickenings of the tissue that serve the same purpose. When these tear, the ball can slip out of the socket on each pitch, causing pain and weakness. The human body was truly not designed to throw a baseball overhand. We don't know how to fix these tears permanently, at least not with anything close to confidence. The first capsule tear repair was performed just 17 years ago on Bret Saberhagen, and of the very few pitchers who have undergone the procedure, it's exceedingly rare to come back as anything close to 100 percent. The sparse list of pitchers now also includes Chris Young, Mark Prior, Chien-Ming Wang, Rich Harden and Dallas Braden. Because anterior capsule surgery has been performed so infrequently on pitchers, how Santana's recovery unfolds will contribute to determining the procedure's effectiveness in extending careers, Altchek had added. Santana is 34 now, a perfectly respectable age for a player to decline a painful and arduous yearlong rehab from an unproven procedure. (It's also the same age at which Roy Halladay, another "best of his generation"-type, started to go downhill last year.) He couldn't be blamed for not attempting a comeback, especially when available evidence says he'll won't be meaningfully effective again. His value now, though, is as a guinea pig. Maybe lessons learned in this second surgery will become common medical practice in coming decades. Maybe Santana's rehab will teach doctors something that one day saves a young phenom's arm. Maybe, years from now, one of the best pitchers the Twins and Mets have ever known will be more remembered for lending his name to the career-saving Johan Santana surgery.

http://deadspin.com/johan-santanas-mets-career-is-over-462697591

[metsmarathon]

Edgy MD wrote: [*]Any notion that Terry's nightmare is true? That Johan re-injured himself because Terry let him go the distance for the no-hitter. (If Terry's culpable, than I and many other fans certainly are.) The timeline certainly supports that scenario, statistically.

only it doens't really.

sure, after the no hitter, he got beat up badly by the yankees for 6 runs in five innings, and again the next time out by the rays 4 runs in 6 innings. and that might be expected if he got hurt or if he just got hisself tired from the 134 pitches.

after the rays game, his era was at 3.23.

but look what he did in his next three starts.

6 innings no runs
6 innings 2 runs
8 innings no runs

his era was down to 2.76.

and then, against the cubs on july 6th, he was 4 inning in, and had given up 2 runs while striking out 6. he collides with reed johnson, hurts his ankle, and falls on his side. he throws 0.2 more IP giving up 5 more runs.


the rest of his season is as follows:

5 innings 6 runs
3 innings 6 runs 1.1 innings 8 runs
5 innings 6 runs
shut down.

if he injured himself last season, then the evidence points to the cubs game, and the johnson collision. maybe the 134 pitches contributed some lingering faitgue that contributed to the injury on that date, or maybe it didn't. it sure didn;'t seem to have affected him terribly much the prior three starts.

[Ceetar]

metsmarathon wrote: if he injured himself last season, then the evidence points to the cubs game, and the johnson collision. maybe the 134 pitches contributed some lingering faitgue that contributed to the injury on that date, or maybe it didn't. it sure didn;'t seem to have affected him terribly much the prior three starts.

He also indicated that he couldn't put weight on his ankle and was throwing more with his arms/upper body. i.e. bad mechanics.

[ashie62]

No surprise...good luck Johan with your post baseball life..

[smg58]

Did Johan get an MRI when he was shut down last year? Is there a reason why it it isn't done more often? Price shouldn't be an issue given the investment.

[ashie62]

I have to believe the latest tear was caused by the cumulative effects of a long hard throwing career in the MLB.

Arms go when they go...You really can't blame the Mets or Collins, or Santana...Blame the human body.

[Zvon]

Ceetar wrote: I'd do it all again.

Ditto.

Fman99 wrote: It makes me sad to think I won't ever see another performance by him in a Mets jersey.

Ditto.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Johan will be the last Met (chronologically) whose jersey I ever purchase for myself. Why? An age thing, mostly. (Both mine and his, relative to mine.)

I'm more upset about this. You feel you are getting too old to be buying Met jerseys? Ridiculous!

Seriously, I didn't expect much from Johan this season (I did hope for the best). I also didn't expect this current scenario, which sucks moose.

THANKS FOR THE GREAT MEMORY, JOHAN!

[Edgy MD]

metsmarathon wrote: if he injured himself last season, then the evidence points to the cubs game, and the johnson collision. maybe the 134 pitches contributed some lingering faitgue that contributed to the injury on that date, or maybe it didn't. it sure didn;'t seem to have affected him terribly much the prior three starts.

Yeah, that's more reasonable to speculate on. Thanks. I get the impression that any injury that occurs after a manager stretched a pitcher's pitch count limits will be directly blamed on the manager stretching the limit. And the way the story is being framed seems designed to insinuate that. A closer look like yours punches a few holes in that, but I the popular narrative does not, and I suspect, given another chance, Terry will pull his man.

[Edgy MD]

And, on that note, Justin Verlander signs for seven years and $180 mills.

[Edgy MD]

ESPN, and "analyst" Doug Glanville, are going with the no-hitter-caused-the-injury angle.

It's too good a story not to run with, apparently.

[Guest The Second Spitter]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: ...but the archives only cover in-season months. That's not true.

What I am doing wrong?

edit: nevermind figured it out.

[seawolf17]

Echo Zvon's thoughts (echoing Ceetar and Fman).

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Easy come easy go. What I recall about the Santana acquisition was that it happened just days following a conversation with Marty noble in which he opined the Mets were at the verge of a long stretch of hard road. I was worried that he would sound foolish saying as much given the potential of the deal but he was dead right and i was dead wrong. Even if very little was Santana's fault his Mets career coincides with a dreadful period in their history. Yeah another one.

[Edgy MD]

Joel Sherman has his own theory of the moment Johan achieved his own personal pear shape.

[Edgy MD]

It's funny that the failure of this deal had virtually nothing to do with the talent the Mets gave up. Deolis Guerra, Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, and Kevin Mulvey had 10.5 WAR among them (mostly Go-Go's). It had everything to do with the subsequent deal he signed, and the injuries sustained.

Dumping a lot of minor league talent for a major league star is usually predicated on signing the guy to an extension. The Mets might have done better just trading for Johan, letting him walk after 2008, and collecting the two picks. It worked with Hampton.

Heck, maybe with a contract to win, 2008 Johan finds a little more inside of himself and the Mets make the playoffs in 2008 and close Shea in style.

[Gwreck]

Edgy MD wrote: Heck, maybe with a contract to win, 2008 Johan finds a little more inside of himself and the Mets make the playoffs in 2008 and close Shea in style.

Dude didn't have a loss in the months of July, August or September and put up a 7.1 WAR.

Yeah, I guess when you miss the playoffs by one game, any one player could've made the difference with just-a-little-bit-more, but still, that's a pretty outrageous suggestion.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Edgy MD wrote: It's funny that the failure of this deal had virtually nothing to do with the talent the Mets gave up. Deolis Guerra, Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, and Kevin Mulvey had 10.5 WAR among them (mostly Go-Go's). It had everything to do with the subsequent deal he signed, and the injuries sustained. Dumping a lot of minor league talent for a major league star is usually predicated on signing the guy to an extension. The Mets might have done better just trading for Johan, letting him walk after 2008, and collecting the two picks. It worked with Hampton. Heck, maybe with a contract to win, 2008 Johan finds a little more inside of himself and the Mets make the playoffs in 2008 and close Shea in style.

As per all reports at the time, Johan was unwilling to waive his no-trade without negotiation of a multiyear extension; the choice was Johan on the fat contract or no Johan at all.

[Edgy MD]

Oh, sure, just talking philosophically. I don't mean to pose it as a real option the Mets had.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Will Johan be lining up with the team during today's introductions? If he does, I hope he gets a nice hand.

[Frayed Knot]

Last I heard his surgery is scheduled for tomorrow - so his attendance today may depend on where that procedure be.

[metirish]

Yeah, he is having the surgery tomorrow, performed by Dr. David Altchek, he works out of Hospital for Special Surgery, so perhaps Johan will be at the game today.

[Edgy MD]

A trip to the park and a warm reception would be cool. Maybe too cool to hope for.

[Vic Sage]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Will Johan be lining up with the team during today's introductions? If he does, I hope he gets a nice hand.

he should get the sound of one hand clapping... it'll be like a zen tribute and metaphor all in one.

[TransMonk]

No-han on Opening Day

[Edgy MD]

ESPN block'd at work.

[TransMonk]

No-han on Opening Day
April, 1, 2013
By Adam Rubin | ESPNNewYork.com

Johan Santana is not expected to be present for Opening Day introductions or to visit with his teammates, a Mets official said.

Santana, 34, is due to undergo a second surgery Tuesday to repair a torn anterior capsule in his left shoulder. Team doctor David Altchek will perform the procedure.