2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Actual, As It Were)

[MFS62]

Who is the "Davis" at #14?
I went on Baseball Reference , entered "Davis" and couldn't recognize a shortstop with that last name.
Who did I miss?

Later

[Edgy MD]

George Davis, a turn-of-the-century Giant, White Sock, and Cleveland Spider, too. Played a big chunk of his career at other positions too.

[MFS62]

Thanks. Like Wagner, Vaughn and Cronin on that second list, just a tad before my time.

Later

[Chad ochoseis]

Jim Fregosi, right in there with the Hall of Famers.

[MFS62]

Chad Ochoseis wrote: Jim Fregosi, right in there with the Hall of Famers.

I just threw up in my mouth.

Later

[Edgy MD]

Well, the name Fregosi certainly appeared last night, so I assumed any vomit would have happened then.

The other thing that helps frame that list is that Alex Rodriguez, assuming he stays at third another two years, will eventually disappear from it, no longer chasing Honus Wagner as the most accomplished player who ever spent the majority of his career at shortstop, but instead chasing (and I imagine he will have exceeded at that point, if not already) Mike Schmidt as the most accomplished player who ever spent the majority of his career at third. That would only bump Larkin (and Trammell) up a notch.

If you include Negro Leaguers, Pop Lloyd would certainly be ahead of him. Maybe one or two others.

[seawolf17]

If you told me in 1988 that Dale Murphy wouldn't even sniff the Hall, I would have kicked you in the nuts.

[nymr83]

What if I'd told you in '88 that Gooden and Strawberry weren't getting in?

Good list of Shortstops, where is Rizzuto on that list (and how the hell is he in the hall??)

[Edgy MD]

Rizzuto was 16th on the list. He'd probably be 20th or so now (again, not counting Negro Leaguers), with Jeter having passed him, and probably Nomar Garciaparra and Omar Vizquel as well.

OE: BB-Ref has them really close in WAR, with Garciaparra at 42.5, Vizquel at 42.3, and Rizzutto at 41.8.

Hanley Ram�rez and Jos� Reyes each have 29.3 career WAR.

[seawolf17]

Nymr83 wrote: What if I'd told you in '88 that Gooden and Strawberry weren't getting in?

I would have been surprised, but not shocked; they were both only five or so years in at that point. Same with Reyes/Wright now; if they got hit by buses tomorrow, they're not HOFers. But Murphy was, at least to 12-year-old me.

[Benjamin Grimm]

That's why 12-year-olds don't get to vote for the Hall of Fame!

Now they just need to take sportswriters out of the mix too.

[MFS62]

Edgy DC wrote: Rizzuto was 16th on the list. He'd probably be 20th or so now (again, not counting Negro Leaguers), with Jeter having passed him, and probably Nomar Garciaparra and Omar Vizquel as well. OE: BB-Ref has them really close in WAR, with Garciaparra at 42.5, Vizquel at 42.3, and Rizzutto at 41.8. Hanley Ram�rez and Jos� Reyes each have 29.3 career WAR.

Rizzuto was the glue of the infield that won many championships. Never flashy, always steady. He played in an era when shortstop was a defensive position, with hitting secondary. Considering the third and second basemen who played with him (BTW, third baseman Andy Carey passed away the other day) were constantly being platooned by Casey, he was the constant.

Later

[seawolf17]

Edgy DC wrote: Jos� Reyes ... 29.3 career WAR.

Dude had five ABs for the Cubs in 2006. Don't know how that equates to 29.3 WAR. Told you the stat was flawed.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

MFS62 wrote: Chad Ochoseis wrote: Jim Fregosi, right in there with the Hall of Famers. I just threw up in my mouth. Later

Well, it shows that the Mets weren't exactly getting a bum. The trade looks horrible now because we know what Ryan became -- and how Fregosi fell apart. But he was a damn good player for a while.

[Frayed Knot]

MFS62 wrote: Rizzuto was 16th on the list. He'd probably be 20th or so now (again, not counting Negro Leaguers), with Jeter having passed him, and probably Nomar Garciaparra and Omar Vizquel as well. OE: BB-Ref has them really close in WAR, with Garciaparra at 42.5, Vizquel at 42.3, and Rizzutto at 41.8. Hanley Ram�rez and Jos� Reyes each have 29.3 career WAR. Rizzuto was the glue of the infield that won many championships. Never flashy, always steady. He played in an era when shortstop was a defensive position, with hitting secondary. Considering the third and second basemen who played with him (BTW, third baseman Andy Carey passed away the other day) were constantly being platooned by Casey, he was the constant.

The problem with that whole 'he played while they won' argument - especially as it's used for Rizzuto - is that Yanx won nine pennants in the ten years after Scooter was no longer their main guy (he never got as many as 400 ABs after 1953) including six of seven once the team (quite unceremoniously btw) dumped him for good.
Tony Kubek for the Hall!!

[Frayed Knot]

seawolf17 wrote: If you told me in 1988 that Dale Murphy wouldn't even sniff the Hall, I would have kicked you in the nuts.

Murphy to me is like Mattingly: Five or six HoF seasons to start off their careers but much closer to ordinary after that.
Neither should be in IMO.

[Edgy MD]

attgig wrote: just some thoughts: NO love for mcgwire... lower than a whole lotta people. who voted for eric young? how does Burnitz, Jordan, Mulholland, Nevin, Sierra, and Womack get even on the ballot, but Olerud not?

Olerud apparently was on last year, and received four votes.

[Vic Sage]

i understand why some writers would choose not to vote for those actually used steroids (by admission, or testing, or naming in the Mitchell report), but to withhold votes from a guy like Bagwell, about whom there is literally NO evidence or even accusation of PED use, simply because he was big and hit HRs in the astrodome, is so exceptionally unfair as to make such voters unfit to wield a vote. And it does not bode well for Sam Champion's buddy, Mr. Piazza, in the future.

[nymr83]

You think Piazza won't get in on the first ballot because of steroid suspicions or because of rumors that he was "sam champion's buddy"? Does he make it the 2nd year once the "none of these guys are first ballot" dopes come along?

I'm ready to book the hotel room in Cooperstown, I mean why not? I haven't been there in roughly 15 years and when is another Met potentially going in again?

[Ceetar]

Nymr83 wrote: You think Piazza won't get in on the first ballot because of steroid suspicions or because of rumors that he was "sam champion's buddy"? Does he make it the 2nd year once the "none of these guys are first ballot" dopes come along? I'm ready to book the hotel room in Cooperstown, I mean why not? I haven't been there in roughly 15 years and when is another Met potentially going in again?

yeah, definitely tempting.

(next time? Perhaps ~2019 when Beltran's eligible?)

[Benjamin Grimm]

I think the point is that if steroid suspicions are keeping Bagwell out, then the same might happen to Piazza.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Ceetar wrote: (next time? Perhaps ~2019 when Beltran's eligible?)

Well, there's Glavine in 2014...

[Edgy MD]

Yeah, definitely book that reservation. You'll also be present for the first-ballot Metly inductions of Shawn Green, Roberto Hernandez, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Jeff Conine, Mike Stanton, and Aaron Sele.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Don't be joking.

Aaron Sele was never a Met.

[seawolf17]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Don't be joking. Aaron Sele was never a Met.

Neither was Tom Glavine.

[Chad ochoseis]

Edgy DC wrote: Rizzuto was 16th on the list. He'd probably be 20th or so now (again, not counting Negro Leaguers), with Jeter having passed him, and probably Nomar Garciaparra and Omar Vizquel as well. OE: BB-Ref has them really close in WAR, with Garciaparra at 42.5, Vizquel at 42.3, and Rizzutto at 41.8. Hanley Ram�rez and Jos� Reyes each have 29.3 career WAR.

Vern Stephens had a career WAR of 44.5 and led the AL in RBI three times as a shortstop (OK, he played in some hitters' parks, but still...). Bill James wrote a pretty passionate chapter in his Hall of Fame book arguing that Stephens was a better all-around shortstop than Rizzuto, so I'm surprised that he didn't make James' list.

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Well, it shows that the Mets weren't exactly getting a bum. The trade looks horrible now because we know what Ryan became -- and how Fregosi fell apart. But he was a damn good player for a while.

Yeah, this. Fregosi put up some great numbers before injuries/lack of motivation/etc. took its toll. Sort of an Andruw Jones of the Nixon era.

[Edgy MD]

Good point. James had Stephens ranked number 22 through 2000. I'll let his comments speak for him, the first three paragraphs speaking directly to your question.

Speaking of drinking men*... in The Politics of Glory, I compared and contrasted Vern Stephens and Phil Rizzuto at perhaps unconsionable length. I know that a lot people who read that book thought that I was saying that Stephens was a better player and a better Hall of Fame candidate than Phil Rizzuto. Obviously I have to take responsibility for the misunderstanding, but it was never my intention to say that. I was trying to present both sides of the argument. Until I developed the Win Shares method (1997�1999), I didn't have any way of determining, to my own satisfaction, whether Rizzuto or Stephens was a better player. Where I am now... well, I can still see it either way. I've decided to rate Rizzuto higher. Stephens at his best was not as good as Rizzuto in 1950. Stephens has more good years, but only because Rizzuto missed three prime seasons to World War II. Stephens and Rizzuto are similar in value, but very different in type � a speedster against a slugger, a defensive player against a hitter, a leadoff man against a cleanup hitter, a player who played in a pitcher's park against a player who plays in a hitter's park, a player who had a good break on playing time against a player who missed three of his bet seasons. When you try to balance them against one another, you can't be sure that you have it right unless you can be sure that you're placing exactly the right weight on each element. Baseball stats don't support that degree of confidence. Stephens, a straight-A student in high school, never made his high school baseball team in Long Beach because he was too small. Famous American Athletes of Today (115h Series, 1949) says that when he was a senior in high school, he weighted less than a hundred pounds, although frankly I find this difficult to believe. Stephens took to swimming several hours a day, anyway, and had a growth spurt when he was 18, after which, playing for an American Legion post, he began to draw the interest of scouts. As a freshman at Long Beach Junior College, he hit .552. Deferred from military service because of a knee injury, Stevens** during the war established himself as perhaps the best wartime position player in the American League, leading the St. Louis Browns to their only American League pennant. In March, 1946, Stephens was holding out for more money and feuding with the Browns at the time that Jorge Pasquel was attempting to raid the major leagues to upgrade the Mexican League. Stephens accepted a bonus, agreed to jump to the Mexican League, signed with Monterrey, and actually played two games in the Mexican League. Stephens father***, however, realized that his son might be making a terrible mistake. Accompanied by Jacques Fournier, a St. Louis scout, Vern Stephens Sr. headed to Monterrey. He quickly persuaded Vern Jr. to return to the states****, but the Mexican authorities refused him permission to re-enter the United States, and implicitly threatened to have him arrested for jumping his contract. Stephens had to sneak across the border, wearing borrowed clothes as a makeshift disguise, to get back to the United States. He returned the bonus he had taken from the Mexican League, made a deal with the Browns, and was allowed to re-join the team, thus avoiding the fate of Max Lanier, Mickey Owen, Sal Maglie, and others. The Browns traded him to the Red Sox, and he drove in a huge number of runs for the Red Sox; I'm sure you all know that. He had an open stance which pulled the ball naturally to left. Fenway suited him. He faded quickly after 1950, died in 1968, and has not been treated kindly or even fairly by baseball historians; the word "carefree" is one of the more pleasant ones to which his reputation has become accustomed. He was not a superstar but he was a well-liked player who could play shortstop because he had the best shortstop throwing arm of his generation.

*This is a reference not only to Stephens but to Bill Dahlen, ranked at number 21.
**He actually spells it "Stevens" here. James, who supposedly treats his editors notoriously poorly, has a wonderful book here, but the terrible editing is heartbreaking.
***Note the absence of an apostrophe here for instance.
****He lower-cases "states" here. Seriously.



James doesn't mention that his draft deferment didn't keep him from pulling his weight in a shipyard during WWII:



Also sucked his share of cigs:

[G-Fafif]

Barry Larkin, Vicki Santo, Bob Elliott and our own (in the context of his remarks) Tim McCarver each spoke brilliantly at Cooperstown this weekend. Elliott spoke for Canada, Vicki for her late husband's fight against diabetes, Larkin told rich and detailed stories about the vets who helped him as he broke in (great story about Buddy Bell and Dodger Stadium) and Tim confirmed that his sixteen seasons with the Mets were the highlight of his broadcasting career. Plus a lovely video montage for the Kid. Hope MLBN reruns this stuff somewhere, though it's not the schedule or their site. I guess they can always run Kevin Millar and Chris Rose eight more times a day.