2012 Hall of Fame Ballot (Prospective)

[G-Fafif]

Eligible for 2012 first-time consideration:

METS: Edgardo Alfonzo, Jeromy Burnitz, Danny Graves, Carl Everett, Matt Lawton, Jose Lima, Mike Remlinger, Scott Erickson

DEMI-METS: Ruben Sierra (briefly a Norfolk Tide), Joe Randa (paper Met for six days), Eric Young (grew up a Mets fan)

NOTABLE METS OPPONENTS: Javy Lopez, Mike Matheny, Tony Womack, Brian Jordan, Phil Nevin, Bill Mueller, Felix Rodriguez, Vinny Castilla, Tim Worrell, Jeff Fassero

NOTABLE AMERICAN LEAGUERS: Tim Salmon, Brad Radke, Rick Helling

BARRY STANTON'S BALLOT: Bernie Williams, Jeff Nelson

[Benjamin Grimm]

I don't see anyone there who belongs. Good news for Tim Raines and Barry Larkin, I imagine.

[G-Fafif]

Prepare for 15 years of simmering "Bernie Baseball" haranguing.

[batmagadanleadoff]

What a weak class of first timers.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Shouldn't Jose Lima have gotten the dead guy's privelige and been added to the ballot this year?

I'm not sure that I've liked those exceptions, but I imagine if Lima was left off this year, he won't be on next.

[G-Fafif]

I assume Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Sosa, Schilling and Biggio all held off on retiring until 2007 because they knew going up against Fonzie would be futile.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't see anyone there who belongs.

"But Rick Heiling won 20 games once!"

-Jon Heyman

[Valadius]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: What a weak class of first timers.

The next few classes make up for this weak year:

2013: B. Bonds, R. Clemens, S. Sosa, M. Piazza, C. Biggio, C. Schilling, K. Lofton
2014: G. Maddux, T. Glavine, J. Kent, F. Thomas, M. Mussina, L. Gonzalez
2015: R. Johnson, P. Martinez, J. Smoltz, G. Sheffield, N. Garciaparra, C. Delgado

[Benjamin Grimm]

Off the cuff, without checking any stats, I think I'd vote for Piazza, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Martinez, and Smoltz, and I'd think about Kent, Thomas, Schilling, and Gonzalez.

[Willets Point]

It's Lima Time!

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I'd vote every one of those guys in, save Lofton, Gonzalez, Mussina, Nomar and CarlosDos.

Say what you will about the means used to get there: Barry Bonds is a deserving Hall of Fame baseball player. (So's the splinter-throwing prick, though I might forget to put him on my pretend ballot accidentally for 14 years or so.)

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

You'd only think about Frank Thomas? Two-time MVP, 500 homers, not only never a whiff or roid use, but a loud critic of those who did use? I think he's first-ballot material, but that's the beauty of HoF debates.

[Benjamin Grimm]

As I said, this is without looking at any stats. I haven't been paying such close attention for the last 15 years, so my knee-jerk reactions might very well be flawed.

[Guest Edgy DC]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I'd vote every one of those guys in, save Lofton, Gonzalez, Mussina, Nomar and CarlosDos.

All furr of those guys deserve deep thought, though.

Clemens has to get right with Congress.

[metirish]

Eligible for 2012 first-time consideration: NOTABLE AMERICAN LEAGUERS: Tim Salmon, Scott Erickson, Brad Radke, Rick Helling

Scott Erickson , a Met but not a noted one

[seawolf17]

metirish wrote: Scott Erickson , a Met but not a noted one

Nope. We voted; Scott Erickson NEVER HAPPENED, okay?

What a weak class of first timers. The next few classes make up for this weak year: 2013: B. Bonds, R. Clemens, S. Sosa, M. Piazza, C. Biggio, C. Schilling, K. Lofton 2014: G. Maddux, T. Glavine, J. Kent, F. Thomas, M. Mussina, L. Gonzalez 2015: R. Johnson, P. Martinez, J. Smoltz, G. Sheffield, N. Garciaparra, C. Delgado

Agreed. Yes to Bonds, Sosa, Piazza, Biggio, Maddux, Glavine, Kent, Thomas, Johnson, Pedro, Smoltz. Maybe to Sheffield and Schilling. Fuck no to Clemens. No to Lofton, Mussina, Gonzo, Nomar, Delgado.

[metirish]

MLB Network last night was trying to sell the idea that Bernie Williams is on the cusp of the HOF and might be the only viable candidate in 2012, Verducci pointed out that there were no starting pitchers on the list and that should help Morris.

[Theoldmole]

I jut can't bring myself to vote for Jeff Kent. My pix for 2013-- Mike and Craig.

[Vic Sage]

2011 Holdovers for 2012 ballot:
Barry Larkin
Jack Morris
Lee Smith
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Edgar Martinez
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff
Don Mattingly
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Juan Gonzalez

[Dave Parker - eligibility period expired]

failed to meet 5% holdover threshhold:
Harold Baines - 4.8
John Franco - 4.6
Kevin Brown - 2.1
Tino Martinez - 1
Marquis Grissom - 0.7
Al Leiter - 0.7
John Olerud - 0.7
B.J. Surhoff - 0.3
Bret Boone - 0.2
Benito Santiago - 0.2
Carlos Baerga - 0 0
Lenny Harris - 0 0
Kirk Reuter - 0 0
Bobby Higginson - 0 0
Charles Johnson - 0 0
Raul Mondesi - 0.0

[metirish]

Every time I see the name Juan Gonzalez I think about huge contracts that the Mets wanted to give him , "Juan Signs"

[Vic Sage]

[u:15ulrwlc]my 2012 ballot:[/u:15ulrwlc]
YES -- larkin, raines, bagwell
BORDERLINE -- E.Martinez, Tramell, Walker
CLOSE, BUT NO -- Morris, Lee, Murphy, McGriff
NO -- Gonzo, BWilliams and every other newly elibigible player
PEDs -- McGwire, Palmiero (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors)

[batmagadanleadoff]

Vic Sage wrote: 2011 Holdovers for 2012 ballot: Barry Larkin Jack Morris Lee Smith Jeff Bagwell Tim Raines Edgar Martinez Alan Trammell Larry Walker Mark McGwire Fred McGriff Don Mattingly Dale Murphy Rafael Palmeiro Juan Gonzalez

I think that only these players from this year's remaining candidates will ultimately be inducted:
Larkin
Bagwell
Raines
Martinez
Walker
Trammell

My guess is that Walker will be the last of these six to get voted in and that Bagwell's candidacy will pick up considerably beginning with next year's vote.

So far, I'd vote for all of those but Larry Walker, though I remain open-minded about his candidacy.

[Vic Sage]

[u:4p8kk0k0]2013: [/u:4p8kk0k0]
YES -- M. Piazza, C. Biggio
BORDERLINE -- C. Schilling
NO - K. Lofton
PEDS -- B. Bonds, R. Clemens, S. Sosa

[u:4p8kk0k0]2014: [/u:4p8kk0k0]
YES -- G. Maddux, F. Thomas
BORDERLINE -- T. Glavine
CLOSE, BUT NO - J. Kent, M. Mussina
NO -- L. Gonzalez

[u:4p8kk0k0]2015:[/u:4p8kk0k0]
YES -- R. Johnson, P. Martinez, J. Smoltz
CLOSE, BUT NO -- Sheffield, N. Garciaparra
NO -- C. Delgado

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Vic Sage wrote: my 2012 ballot: YES -- larkin, raines, bagwell BORDERLINE -- E.Martinez, Tramell, Walker CLOSE, BUT NO -- Morris, Lee, Murphy, McGriff NO -- Gonzo, BWilliams and every other newly elibigible player PEDs -- McGwire, Palmiero (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors)

What is this "borderline" and "close, but no" business? There are two categories: Hall of Famer or not Hall of Famer. Take a stand, Vic!

And just getting named in a report is good enough to get a guy bounced off your list? You're giving a lot of credibility to folks who might not have earned it.

[Gwreck]

Vic Sage wrote: (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors)

That's a helluva criteria. Can you define how "other evidence" differs from "mere rumors" and provide an example? Perhaps with Sosa, as he wasn't in the Mitchell Report but is on your "PEDs" list.

[G-Fafif]

metirish wrote: Scott Erickson , a Met but not a noted one

WOW! I totally blocked that out! Thanks for noticing.

[Vic Sage]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: my 2012 ballot: YES -- larkin, raines, bagwell BORDERLINE -- E.Martinez, Tramell, Walker CLOSE, BUT NO -- Morris, Lee, Murphy, McGriff NO -- Gonzo, BWilliams and every other newly elibigible player PEDs -- McGwire, Palmiero (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors) What is this "borderline" and "close, but no" business? There are two categories: Hall of Famer or not Hall of Famer. Take a stand, Vic! And just getting named in a report is good enough to get a guy bounced off your list? You're giving a lot of credibility to folks who might not have earned it.

"borderline" means i think they have a good argument and i haven't made up my mind about them yet. "close, but no" indicates that i HAVE made up my mind. I put those categories in to give readers a sense of my rankings at this point, rather than present a merely binary "in/out" scenario, which puts Rick Heiling in the same category as Jack Morris.

And McGwire and Palmiero did more than "just get named in a report"; Palmiero failed a test and McGwire admitted it.

But i think you know all that, and you are just being a total dick for entertainment purposes.

[Vic Sage]

Gwreck wrote: (my criteria: admission, positive test, Mitchell report, or other evidence, not mere rumors) That's a helluva criteria. Can you define how "other evidence" differs from "mere rumors" and provide an example? Perhaps with Sosa, as he wasn't in the Mitchell Report but is on your "PEDs" list.

Sosa was reported by the NY Times, and other reputable news sources, as being on the list of 103 players to fail the 2003 drug test. That is in contrast to Jeff Bagwell, who voters punished this year for being on a team with Ken Caminiti while simultaneously getting bigger and playing better over the course of his career (as have many other major leaguers over the years, including pre-steriod eras).

but, like "michigan", you know all this perfectly well; you just have an issue with ANY kind of line-drawing in this area so your just trying to pick a fight.

[Gwreck]

To clarify:

1. Actually, I've been on record here numerous times that conclusive evidence (ie. failed test for PEDs once MLB implemented their testing program) is, in my opinion, sufficient reason to keep an otherwise-deserving player out of the Hall of Fame for those so inclined and have specifically cited Palmeiro as the obvious example.

2. You are correct that Sosa was reported by the NY Times to be on a list of positive steroids tests in 2003, at time when testing was done on an anonymous survey basis. You may recall that a Federal Court eventually ruled that the federal prosecutors who seized that information acted illegally. Sosa, of course, failed no such tests once baseball was doing so publicly and with penalties for those caught.

3. My personal belief is that the line-drawing re: PED users and hall of fame eligibility is misguided, but that's people's prerogative.

My strongest objection is to what I believe to be specious logic when drawing those lines.

I have no interest in a fight; just well-reasoned discussion (and debate).

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Wow.

Was just asking a question. I am aware of Palmiero's test and McGwire's confession, and I was assuming that the criteria extended beyond those two players. Hence, my comment that just being mentioned in the Mitchell report seems kinding of damning given that some of the people in there naming names are not the most reputable folks.

A little bit of an overreaction there, Vic.