2010 Baseball Hall of Fame Voting

[Guest Edgy DC]

New voting procedures allow us to vote like the pros do!

[seawolf17]

Gooden?

[Valadius]

Dammit Edgy, you're going to taint the voting pool with Gooden in there.

[Valadius]

There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.[/quote:34o1y2b6]

He made an out in two thirds of his plate appearances. That's pretty tough to overcome and still produce at a hall-of-fame level.

[ashie62]

Somebody voted for Dwight Gooden?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.[/quote:13fa1rwq]

He made an out in two thirds of his plate appearances. That's pretty tough to overcome and still produce at a hall-of-fame level.[/quote:13fa1rwq]

Ahem-- MORE than two-thirds of his plate appearances. From a corner OF slot, the rest of the numbers aren't overwhelming, frankly.

[Valadius]

There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.[/quote:ptdbgmrr]

He made an out in two thirds of his plate appearances. That's pretty tough to overcome and still produce at a hall-of-fame level.[/quote:ptdbgmrr]

I give you:

Lou Brock - .343
Robin Yount - .342
Johnny Bench - .342
Tony Perez - .341
Carlton Fisk - .341
Cal Ripken, Jr. - .340
Ozzie Smith - .337
Gary Carter - .335
Ernie Banks - .330
Brooks Robinson - .322
Rabbit Maranville - .318
Luis Aparicio - .311

Sure, OBP is a nice stat, but it's not the be-all, end-all some people make it out to be. I find it a bogus argument.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

There is some serious Dawson-hate going on here and I don't get it.[/quote:fqp3ixsv]

He made an out in two thirds of his plate appearances. That's pretty tough to overcome and still produce at a hall-of-fame level.[/quote:fqp3ixsv]

I give you:

Lou Brock - .343
Robin Yount - .342
Johnny Bench - .342
Tony Perez - .341
Carlton Fisk - .341
Cal Ripken, Jr. - .340
Ozzie Smith - .337
Gary Carter - .335
Ernie Banks - .330
Brooks Robinson - .322
Rabbit Maranville - .318
Luis Aparicio - .311

Sure, OBP is a nice stat, but it's not the be-all, end-all some people make it out to be. I find it a bogus argument.[/quote:fqp3ixsv]

Two-thirds of the guys you list above played superlative-- as in, consensus greatest ever-- defense and/or put up otherwise superlative offensive numbers at difficult positions. The other third, it may be argued, shouldn't be IN the HOF in the first place (Aparicio, Maranville, Perez... and maybe even Robinson).

[Gwreck]

Did you notice that on the list you produced, Dawson's OBP is only better than the bottom three?

[Valadius]

Sure, but there are exceptions to every rule.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

I give you:

Lou Brock - .343
Robin Yount - .342
Johnny Bench - .342
Tony Perez - .341
Carlton Fisk - .341
Cal Ripken, Jr. - .340
Ozzie Smith - .337
Gary Carter - .335
Ernie Banks - .330
Brooks Robinson - .322
Rabbit Maranville - .318
Luis Aparicio - .311

Sure, OBP is a nice stat, but it's not the be-all, end-all some people make it out to be. I find it a bogus argument.[/quote:2urush2p]

Dude, there's an awful lot of shortstops and catchers on that list. Apples, oranges, etc. Pedro Martinez has a career .134 OBP, but he'd have my vote if he were on the ballot (and I had a vote).

[Frayed Knot]

I give you:

Lou Brock - .343 - Only guy here who, like Dawson, was a corner outfielder. But he was also one of the two or three greatest base-stealers ever
Robin Yount - .342 -- Spent half his career as a SS AND half as a CF
Johnny Bench - .342 -- Probably the best catcher in the 2nd half of the 20th century
Tony Perez - .341 -- The other guy who's not a middle of the diamond player, but borderline himself and came up during the toughest hitter's decade since the dead ball era. Is also 18 points above Dawson in OBA
Carlton Fisk - .341 -- In the class photo for best catcher in 2nd half of 20th century
Cal Ripken, Jr. - .340 -- A short-stop, and set a record you may have heard about
Ozzie Smith - .337 -- Not just a short-stop, THE short-stop
Gary Carter - .335 -- A catcher and a good one w/300+ HRs
Ernie Banks - .330 -- A SS for the first half of his career. Also a 500-HR guy when the meeting of that group could take place in a mid-sized sedan
Brooks Robinson - .322 -- Consensus best fielding 3rd sacker ever ... and probably a borderline choice, but is also the first one on this list to have a lower OBP than Hawk
Rabbit Maranville - .318 -- Short-stop
Luis Aparicio - .311 -- Short-stop


You're right. It shouldn't be all about OBP. And it isn't.
I think that without all his injuries Dawson would be an easier pick ... but other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play?

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's hard to figure out who hits the 75% threshold. Instead of listing above the percentage of ballots a player appears on, they list the percentage of votes for the player over total votes cast. I voted first, voted for five guys, and then each of them had a "20%" next to his name. That's not very helpful.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Sure, but there are exceptions to every rule.[/quote:30wbrgwc]

It's not a rule. And it's not hate.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

I could go either way on Dawson. He has Steve Henderson's ROY award, and Darryl's MVP!

I don't think the Hall is cheapened by his entrance, should he be elected. But I'm not sure how you let him in and tell Dale Murphy and maybe even Parker that they're not invited.

It would be a shame if Raines and Larkin don't get in. Blyleven, too.

I'm wondering if Almoar will get punished for the spitting thing. Don't think Martinez should be punished for being a DH -- it's a real position, after all. There are other one-dimensional players in there -- cough, cough, Reggie.

No on Mattingly. Last thing the Hall needs is another damned Yankee.

[Theoldmole]

For a lot of people, Maranville is the poster boy for "shouldn't be in the Hall," but the guy played 19 seasons as a full time regular at shortstop, which is not unimpressive.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't think DH is a position. It's the absence of a position.

And I don't think it's about "punishing." It's about not crediting.

I'm on the fence about Martinez. Had there been no DH, he likely would have been a thirdbaseman the first 50% of his career, a firstbasman the next 45-50% and a part-timer the last year or two. He probably would have compiled 90% of his offensive performance anyhow.

More importantly, since the percentages above don't really represent the percentages of voters casting ballots, do us a data-compiling favor and copy and paste this image into a post of yours above or below if you've voted.

[Willets Point]

[Benjamin Grimm]

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

[MFS62]

And not for Dawson (he was a "very good player" but not HOF to me.)
And not for Edgar. If he had only worn a glove for a substantial part of his career, as Edgy mentioned, I would feel better about voting for him. But by not playing a position, he also avoided a potential (career-ending) injury that would have reduced his numbers by who knows how many. (See: Fosse, Ray and Reiser, Pete)
I also remember when Bill Veeck signed HArold Baines, he called him "Hall of Fame" Baines. It was a case of premature evaluation. A no from me.

Later

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I voted for 6 guys, all of the top-6 vote-getters on the list.

[Vic Sage]

[Gwreck]

I voted: Alomar, McGwire, Blyleven, Martinez.

I don't see DH as the "absence" of a position as mentioned earlier; it's more accurately described as "half" of a position (the corresponding other half being the pitcher).

[HahnSolo]

I voted. Do I have to cut and paste the picture?

[seawolf17]

[Guest themetfairy]

[Guest Edgy DC]

I voted. Do I have to cut and paste the picture?[/quote:aw26o2tk]
At the end of the day, it'll make counting quick an hopefully unambiguous.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I went top 6, plus McGwire.

Funny that MGiM pointed out Murphy and Parker, since that's exactly the tier Dawson sits in for me-- good-but-not-great. Baines as well, but a little below those guys-- call it Tier 2A.

FWIW, Edgar put up 563 GS at third (roughly 3 1/2-to-4 full seasons) and by reputation and available measure was quite good there. The Mariners probably would have kept running him out there until he broke down but for the fact that his bat was so good they didn't even want to chance it. I'll repeat myself for emphasis: he ended his CAREER with an adjusted OPS+ of 147. That means that in overall offensive prowess, adjusted for era, he was about even with McCovey, Stargell and A-Rod (pre-decline), just a shade below Aaron/Dimaggio/Kiner/Frank Thomas/Frank Robinson territory, and better than Delgado, Larry Walker, Reggie, Cap Anson, Chuck Klein, Bill Terry, Kaline, Yaztremski, Carew and a HOST of other HOFer OFers and 1B/3B-types. He can't just hang with the best offensive players of all time... he's smack in the middle of them. He's borderline in my mind, but he goes.