Trades

[seawolf17]

Ryan Freel is a Royal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4309328

(I would love Freel as a Met.)

[DocTee]

Ryan Freel is a Royal.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4309328

(I would love Freel as a Met.)

I'd have preferred:

[url:23k612go]http://myespn.go.com/blogs/sweetspot/0-4-15/A-s-swipe-Hairston-from-Padres.html[/url:23k612go]

[Vic Sage]

what would it take to get Halladay? BJays are said to be shopping him.

[smg58]

At least one of Wil Flores and Brad Holt would have to be in it. Plus Parnell, their choice of Murphy or Evans, perhaps a major league PTBNL that they get after the season (like maybe John Maine). I see no harm in asking.

[nymr83]

well he's signed through NEXT year, at which point they'd get 2 high draft choices if he walks away. i suspect they could get the most for him if they wait for the offseason when teams have budget room for next year and dont mind giving away major leaguers as much as they would in-season.

a realistic (offseason) offer from the Mets might be: Maine, Holt, Flores/Martinez, and a couple of guys who arent on any prospect lists for Halladay and maybe a medium size salary they don't want anymore (kevin millar or david delluci probably makes a million bucks that they'd love to make the mets eat)

that might seem like alot but he's an ace pitcher and you have to think there are teams with much better prospects to offer like the Dodgers (the Red Sox would be almost an ideal fit but i dont know if they'll trade him in the division)

[Gwreck]

Halladay has a no-trade clause and it would take Santana money to get him. Plus a comparable, if not greater, package of prospects.

[nymr83]

="Gwreck":1asa0nfn]Halladay has a no-trade clause and it would take Santana money to get him. Plus a comparable, if not greater, package of prospects.[/quote:1asa0nfn] yeah, i dont think the Mets have the prospects to get him without including John Maine, an already decent and fairly young MLB pitcher, alongg with the best of their prospects. That might actually be a deal you dont love a few years from now. Halladay is 32 as compared to Santana's 29 when the Mets got him. btw, i find it outrageous that philliesnation.com has sponsored Santana's baseballrefence page. we need to either a) get it back or sponsor a philly page and leave a message like "lets go mets"

Nymr83 Jul 08 2009 03:31 PM

not a trade, but toronto released bj ryan today, still owing him 10 million for next year.

metirish Jul 08 2009 03:51 PM

That always struck me as a dumb deal to begin with, but there was a lot of bad big money deals for closers around that time.

Frayed Knot Jul 08 2009 04:52 PM

5-year deals for relievers usually are dumb - especially for big money (of course if it were small money he wouldn't be getting a 5-year deal in the first place). That he needed major surgery a short time into the deal obviously didn't help things.

A Boy Named Seo Jul 08 2009 04:53 PM

I'm pretty sure I wanted BJ Ryan back when.

Frayed Knot Jul 08 2009 05:07 PM

Maybe - although you didn't chime in during this thread one way or the other. Nymr83 gets the prescient award on this topic: "that is a shitload of years and money. toronto will come to regret that contract in a few years i think."

seawolf17 Jul 08 2009 09:09 PM

You know why I hat baseball? Seven hours ago, I was ready to break up this team and trade everyone not named Wright, Reyes, or Santana. One win later, and I'm ready to deal the entire farm system for Roy Halladay and make a run at a title. (sigh)

Nymr83 Jul 08 2009 09:20 PM

i'd be willing to deal for halladay anyway because he'd be a huge piece for next year, but unless the mets can really turn things around i wouldnt want to deal prospects for a 2009 rental anymore, the time for that has passed (for now)

metirish Jul 09 2009 08:17 AM

="Frayed Knot"]Maybe - although you didn't chime in during this thread one way or the other. Nymr83 gets the prescient award on this topic: "that is a shitload of years and money. toronto will come to regret that contract in a few years i think." As always it's interesting to look back....props to Nymr for Ryan and props to Edgy for his Jason Bay comment... I had forgotten about Loiaza and that terrible deal...

MFS62 Jul 09 2009 08:32 AM

I'm still not sure about how much Halliday could help the current situation. He's played his entire ML career in the American League, so we don't know how well he can hit. Later

Nymr83 Jul 09 2009 09:57 AM

="MFS62":3l37xz2z]I'm still not sure about how much Halliday could help the current situation. He's played his entire ML career in the American League, so we don't know how well he can hit. Later[/quote:3l37xz2z] he'd probably turn into another Santana, 7 innings 2 runs, and a 2-1 loss. but he'd be here for next year when Reyes, Wright, and Beltran are (hopefully) together and healthy along with Delgado or some other bat at firstbase or in the outfield. and pitchers coming over from the AL to the NL tend to do well LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 10:08 AM ="Nymr83":2tue5avz] ="MFS62":2tue5avz]I'm still not sure about how much Halliday could help the current situation. He's played his entire ML career in the American League, so we don't know how well he can hit. Later[/quote:2tue5avz] he'd probably turn into another Santana, 7 innings 2 runs, and a 2-1 loss. but he'd be here for next year when Reyes, Wright, and Beltran are (hopefully) together and healthy along with Delgado or some other bat at firstbase or in the outfield. and pitchers coming over from the AL to the NL tend to do well[/quote:2tue5avz] I'm not going to say that it guarantees anything, obviously, but Santana and Halladay up front compares pretty decently to Johnson-Schilling. (With a better bullpen.) If one of Reyes and Beltran come back at close to full form before month's end, with Delgado on the heels of that, that hypothetical team-- problematic though it may be-- may well get my bet for pennant darkhorse. [And I'm still of the mind that this season is over. But it sits a bit better after last night's win... and the old-time Shea environment that accompanied it.] Edgy DC Jul 09 2009 10:26 AM This season is not over. They may well not flourish this season, but neither have they made their last run. Nymr83 Jul 09 2009 10:27 AM that d-backs team (the 2001 WS winners) seemed very top-heavy in my mind, but i'm not sure when i look at it you had Johnson and Schilling throw a combined 500 innings of 157/188 ERA+ and then a bunch of league average starts (or below) from other guys (Batista had a good ERA+ but i don't know how much of that was in his 18 starts and how much was in the 30 relief appearences) the bullpen was decent with Kim, Swinfell, Prinz, but obviously Brenly didn't trust them as he went to Batista and then Johnson in relief of Schilling in game 7 of the WS (Batista and Johnson had started games 5 and 6 respectively) on the hitting sie Gonzlez was a (steroid-infused?) monster while Grace and Sanders made big contributions, Matt Williams and Jay Bell were serviceable at the back-ends of their careers, and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC":33w6rfz5]This season is not over. They may well not flourish this season, but neither have they made their last run.[/quote:33w6rfz5] To clarify: given the no-end-in-sight DL stints of Beltran and Reyes and the mid-to-late-August return of Delgado, the team's playoff viability is down to puncher's-chance levels. ("More or less over" might have been closer to my actual sentiment.) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 11:20 AM ="Nymr83"]that d-backs team (the 2001 WS winners) seemed very top-heavy in my mind, but i'm not sure when i look at it you had Johnson and Schilling throw a combined 500 innings of 157/188 ERA+ and then a bunch of league average starts (or below) from other guys (Batista had a good ERA+ but i don't know how much of that was in his 18 starts and how much was in the 30 relief appearences) the bullpen was decent with Kim, Swinfell, Prinz, but obviously Brenly didn't trust them as he went to Batista and then Johnson in relief of Schilling in game 7 of the WS (Batista and Johnson had started games 5 and 6 respectively) on the hitting sie Gonzlez was a (steroid-infused?) monster while Grace and Sanders made big contributions, Matt Williams and Jay Bell were serviceable at the back-ends of their careers, and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball If memory serves, the bullpen, deserved or no, had a bit of a can't-close-the-tough-ones rep by the WS (and Kim did blow 4 out of 23 save chances); that said, they were pretty effective most of the year. Batista was actually almost exactly as effective that year as a reliever as he was a starter. (The splits are almost eerily alike, actually: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=batismi01&year=2001&t=p#sprel) It was one top-heavy squad (Luis' career year, with the only other above-average performances coming from Sanders and the declining Grace)... but I didn't realize how effective they were (3rd in the NL in runs). LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 12:08 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":9nsr1ovv]Claim dat bitch! (3.55 ERA/125 ERA+/24 hits in 25.1 IP) http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/07/indians_designate_herges_for_a.html[/quote:9nsr1ovv] http://www.purplerow.com/2009/7/4/938282/matt-herges-the-reason-we-look-at Matt Herges, still hanging around, available for league-minimum monies. Still damn effective. Frayed Knot Jul 09 2009 12:22 PM ]... and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball Except for that game-tying double in the 9th/game 7 which not only was the biggest hit in the inning that made the Yanx lose both the game and the series but also caused them to sign him to an over-priced 2-year contract a few seasons later (cuz he's clutch don't cha know). Helluva guy if you ask me. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 09 2009 12:38 PM Yes, I love Tony Womack. I shall never forget that game -- or signing up for a nyyfans.com account immediately afterward just to witness their fans suffering. The account still works! Let's see now if Stevie Jeets can find out which one is me! LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 17 2009 11:15 AM Three words: Price. To. Move. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/17/952227/schneider-on-fire-enjoy-it-while Vic Sage Jul 20 2009 10:27 AM overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... Centerfield Jul 20 2009 11:28 AM Too bad Delgado's not going to be ready by the deadline. I wonder if he can be a PTBNL or if we can sneak him through waivers while he's in recovery. smg58 Jul 20 2009 02:30 PM Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care. Nymr83 Jul 20 2009 03:47 PM ="smg58":2nsartq1]Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care.[/quote:2nsartq1] yeah i'm with "i dont care" i dont want to give anything up for Lopez LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:11 AM ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ metirish Jul 22 2009 10:19 AM I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:24 AM I wouldn't mind seeing what Rodriguez would bring. And also, as I brought up to LWFS last night, let's just pretend the Jays get a buttload of terrific prospects for Halladay. ... How crazy would it be then to offer Santana to the team that just missed out? smg58 Jul 22 2009 10:31 AM What if the team that just missed out was the Phillies? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:33 AM I'd listen. Wouldn't you? TransMonk Jul 22 2009 10:39 AM I'd listen, but I consider Santana one of the 4 or 5 core members of the team. And I don't think we're that far away from being able to compete during his prime years. I would want MUCH more than this 2nd place team would be offering for Halladay. duan Jul 22 2009 10:42 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that. seawolf17 Jul 22 2009 10:44 AM ="duan":15lo21u5]am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that.[/quote:15lo21u5] Yes, b/c he's in the first year of a multi-year deal. Why the eff would you replace Santana with Halladay? That's insane. metirish Jul 22 2009 10:46 AM Apparently the Phiilies would not include Drabek in a deal for Halladay . Riccardi saying that a deal is now not likely, much posturing going on one would think. Santana has a full no trade and Rodriguez has a limited one where he can block a trade to ten teams. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:48 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="metirish":1eyasbe2]I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights.[/quote:1eyasbe2] FIP (Fielding-Independent-Pitching statistic) is an attempt to provide an ERA-type metric (it's multiplied by a league-specific number to be scaled like ERA) that measures stuff (HR, BB, and K to be exact) that's under the direct control of pitchers... the idea being to remove the influence of the defense behind a pitcher on his stats. But, yeah, ultimately, that's peripheral. The main thrust is that even the greatest closer (Mariano last year, e.g.) is in real value less valuable than a pretty good position player virtually anywhere on the diamond... but the perception is that the closer is essential. That gap between perception and reality may be the key to extracting something worth something (Pence, e.g.) for a relatively low cost. Although the little kid in me would hate to see Santana go, I'd be intrigued by the idea of what we could get in return, baseball value for baseball value. That said, JCL, his contract severely reduces the market for him-- Halladay's relatively affordable yet, for a year-plus (plus playoffs?). Even then, Halladay's trade value is lower now than it was with, say, 2 1/2 years of that below-market contract If Toronto really is going to trade him, it's a shame for them they didn't seriously consider doing it last year. bmfc1 Jul 22 2009 10:49 AM Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran. G-Fafif Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="bmfc1":zqmjc72m]Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran.[/quote:zqmjc72m] LaRoche should retroactively express embarrassment that the Red Sox lost two of three to the Mets in May. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:55 AM At last, our long national 2-"A LaRoches"-on-the-same-team nightmare is over. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:03 AM The catch with K-Rod is that money is a big issue for most teams, and it's not clear that K-Rod was in anybody else's price range when it wouldn't have taken players to get him this past offseason. Now if somebody offered a similarly good but perhaps overpaid major leaguer you might have a match, but deals like that tend to happen in the offseason. There's also the glass-is-half-full way to look at his numbers: he's been very effective for us in a down year by his standards. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:25 AM The Pirates' booty in the LaRoche deal consists of Argenis Diaz (a younger version of our Argenis, with almost as good a bat) and Hunter Strickland (finesse righty showing excellent control for a 20-year-old at AA, although homers are a concern). MFS62 Jul 22 2009 12:46 PM And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later OlerudOwned Jul 22 2009 01:22 PM ="MFS62":qk01r3dh]And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later[/quote:qk01r3dh] They way they've been running things this season, I'm sure they'll take whatever they can get for him and laugh all the way to the bank. smg58 Jul 22 2009 05:02 PM In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt. In a bit of a surprise, Julio Lugo is a Cardinal; Chris Duncan heads to Pawtucket. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 06:04 PM ="smg58":1f7j0xfg]In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt.[/quote:1f7j0xfg] Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about the worst thing that happened to the Mets. Gwreck Jul 22 2009 11:53 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1wrfg6dm]Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about only the eighth or ninth worst thing that happened to the Mets.[/quote:1wrfg6dm] Fixed it for you. I agree that Cora's killing the offense (maybe slightly more than Murphy or Santos/Schneider) but Cora's poor performance also reflects on Jerry and Omar, I think. It's not like his hitting .240 is an aberration. OlerudOwned Jul 23 2009 12:56 AM Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 01:54 AM ="OlerudOwned":37869gxh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:37869gxh] You are correct...Unfortunately the Mets are under a do not resuscitate order Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 05:18 AM ="OlerudOwned":1wbzyqkh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:1wbzyqkh] He'd have been an upgrade over Cora a month ago assuming he could have been had for "nothing" if we paid his salary. But he's not really good. Theres no point in getting him now. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 05:27 AM ="OlerudOwned"]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Look, if Cora went and got the surgery he needed Omar would have to have done something and Wilson being a good fielder and presumably available would have been a reasonable solution. In the meantime we'd have enjoyed the benefits of a 700 OPS guy vs. a 500 OPS guy; and a good fielder vs. a shitty fielder. It's all vomit under the bridge by now, but just saying. metirish Jul 23 2009 08:22 AM Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:30 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 08:40 AM I agree that allowing Cora to cowboy up (and batting him leadoff) has been terribly wishful thinking. I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this. But I think the Mets braintrust needed to realize that wishing that Cora could somehow summon his best game through the injury was too much risk for too little reward. Maybe the strong May for the team triggered a lot of wishful thinking. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:34 AM ]I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this The Cora we've seen from 2005-2008 is almost as bad as this, unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:43 AM He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this. And better used sparingly --- which he had been before he got hurt --- even at his best. Always good to be patronized by you, thanks. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:57 AM that wasnt being patronizing. ]He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this from 2005 to 2008 he hit .244/.309/.339 (68 OPS+) this year its .242/.322/.295 (66+) you want to show me that he was particularly better defensively, go ahead, but contrary to your assertion he's the same hitter now that he's been the last 4 years. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 09:19 AM ]unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Yeah, talking to me like I'm a twit is pretty uneccessarily insulting. I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL (an activation that apparently shouldn't have happened). The numbers you quote are not part of my "assertion" but including the early part of the season when he played well. His numbers that I am "asserting" about are .212 // .274 //. 244 // .518. And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now, while making a crack about how I "somehow expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04" is doubly insulting. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 10:19 AM bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. the injury didn't cause him to suck. props to him for gutting it out anyway (but thumbs down to the mets for letting him.) its too late now anyway. unless the mets have a better option internally it is no longer worth obtaining one for just this year. ]I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL that wasnt made clear, but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out ]And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period rather than the last 4? he's been BAD since leaving LA, that was why i picked four years, that was when he left LA. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:28 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. And the Cards need middle-infield depth a bit more than they need yet another backup-for-Pujols/sorta-sluggy* backup-corner OF-type. *In 2006-07, that is. He's slugging .389 this year, and David Wright has as many home runs. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 10:32 AM This is too ridiculous ]bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. No, it's not, because you decided to make hay over ]the real Cora is not as bad as this ] the injury didn't cause him to suck. It appears to have made him play worse. ]that wasnt made clear It was clear enough. ]but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out I think it's clear that I'm with you there. Maybe not. ]and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period I didn't "decide" anything. You're the one who has been framing. My only timeframe was the period he has been hurt. Do I really have to spell everything out here? He's better as an uninjured backup shortstop than an injured fulltime one. I think that's a clear position and one I'm willing to defend. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 11:22 AM RRRRRRROW! smg58 Jul 23 2009 11:32 AM Wilson's a mediocre hitter but consistently one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. That alone would have made him an upgrade. But there's really no point now. Cora was signed to be a backup, and if he were playing only as much as the Mets originally expected him to play nobody would be complaining that harshly. Plus, he might have been given more time off to heal properly if the Mets weren't utterly desperate, and his numbers might actually look better. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:33 AM I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother? All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. ]I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Even when you do your hair like that? seawolf17 Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 01:05 PM ="seawolf17"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. The look on his face-- half "O" face, half confused St. Bernard-- helps. I hope he finds International League trophies just as fuckable-- by all reports, he's headed for RI. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:50 PM ="Frayed Knot":p8keo0dg] ="metirish":p8keo0dg]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?[/quote:p8keo0dg][/quote:p8keo0dg] All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. Would that be MFY AAA meathead Shelly Duncan or the pixie actress of stage and screen possibly? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 11:05 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:10 AM ="Nymr83"]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Wallace is the interesting name here. Considered to be among the best college bats to come along in many years, he was passed over by a number of teams (StL got him with the #13 pick) out of concern for where he'd play. In short, he's HUGE!, and huge as in wide not as in tall (BB-Ref lists him at 6' 1" - 245). In 'Moneyball' terms (since he's headed to Oakland) "he wears a big pair of underwear". The thought is that he'll be a DH sooner rather than later which isn't a great thing to be saying about a guy not yet 23 y/o. For now, they say his hands are at least decent and he's not as immobile as he looks. But, above all, he can rake. Already at AAA barely a year after signing, he blew through three different levels in between and will probably be in Oakland before the year is out. But, man, Oakland sounds like they're putting together slow-pitch softball teams again. Between Giambi, Jack Cust, Daric Barton (also snagged in a trade w/StL - for Mulder) and now Wallace they've got at least 4 'stocky' (I'm being nice here) 1B/DH types not seen since the days when the brothers Giambi were teamed with Matt Stairs & John Jaha. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:09 AM I saw some on him. I liked his waddle. Like a lefthanded Bob Horner. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 01:28 PM Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 01:48 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. Just goes to show you how much of a buyer's market this is; the sheer number of potential in-it-to-win-it teams the last two years has resuscitated the good-old-fashioned deadline deal, however briefly, even in the face of cost constraints and the rising value of FA-compensatory draft picks. (Although it kinda seemed from Day One that Beane had an eye toward Holliday's departure-- like they acquired him almost exclusively like a short-sell, either for the draft picks or the trade value-- didn't it?) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 01:24 AM Consider the source, but still-- Re-heeeeeally? ]The Rangers remain in the market for a bat, with the Indians' Ryan Garko and Mets' Gary Sheffield among their targets, even though Sheffield currently is on the disabled list. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9854856/BoSox-involved-in-Halladay-talks-and-more- seawolf17 Jul 27 2009 08:07 AM I wish he hadn't gotten hurt, because I think Sheffield -- and possibly Livan -- are the Mets two best trading chips right now. I read somewhere recently that Sheffield would revolt if he got dealt, though, so as always with him, it'd be buyer beware. Frayed Knot Jul 27 2009 08:42 AM Sheffield always threatens to revolt - but the thing is, this time he could easily make it stick. He was all but ready to retire anyway after being released by Detroit; he had $14mil coming to him and nothing monetarily to gain from playing unless he's really lying and is secretly dying to play next year too only for a fraction of this year's salary. But the Mets (he claims) were a good fit for him and so he took the gig when offered. But now if dealt somewhere he doesn't like (I don't think he has any No-Trade protection) he can simply walk-away rather than pull up stakes and move across the country for 9 weeks and not lost a thing except a possible shot at another ring.

[nymr83]

not a trade, but toronto released bj ryan today, still owing him 10 million for next year.

[metirish]

That always struck me as a dumb deal to begin with, but there was a lot of bad big money deals for closers around that time.

[Frayed Knot]

5-year deals for relievers usually are dumb - especially for big money (of course if it were small money he wouldn't be getting a 5-year deal in the first place).

That he needed major surgery a short time into the deal obviously didn't help things.

[A Boy Named Seo]

I'm pretty sure I wanted BJ Ryan back when.

[Frayed Knot]

Maybe - although you didn't chime in during this thread one way or the other.


Nymr83 gets the prescient award on this topic:
"that is a shitload of years and money. toronto will come to regret that contract in a few years i think."

[seawolf17]

You know why I hat baseball? Seven hours ago, I was ready to break up this team and trade everyone not named Wright, Reyes, or Santana.

One win later, and I'm ready to deal the entire farm system for Roy Halladay and make a run at a title.

(sigh)

[nymr83]

i'd be willing to deal for halladay anyway because he'd be a huge piece for next year, but unless the mets can really turn things around i wouldnt want to deal prospects for a 2009 rental anymore, the time for that has passed (for now)

[metirish]

="Frayed Knot"]Maybe - although you didn't chime in during this thread one way or the other. Nymr83 gets the prescient award on this topic: "that is a shitload of years and money. toronto will come to regret that contract in a few years i think."

As always it's interesting to look back....props to Nymr for Ryan and props to Edgy for his Jason Bay comment...

I had forgotten about Loiaza and that terrible deal...

[MFS62]

I'm still not sure about how much Halliday could help the current situation. He's played his entire ML career in the American League, so we don't know how well he can hit.

Later

[nymr83]

="MFS62":3l37xz2z]I'm still not sure about how much Halliday could help the current situation. He's played his entire ML career in the American League, so we don't know how well he can hit. Later[/quote:3l37xz2z] he'd probably turn into another Santana, 7 innings 2 runs, and a 2-1 loss. but he'd be here for next year when Reyes, Wright, and Beltran are (hopefully) together and healthy along with Delgado or some other bat at firstbase or in the outfield. and pitchers coming over from the AL to the NL tend to do well

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 10:08 AM

="Nymr83":2tue5avz] ="MFS62":2tue5avz]I'm still not sure about how much Halliday could help the current situation. He's played his entire ML career in the American League, so we don't know how well he can hit. Later[/quote:2tue5avz] he'd probably turn into another Santana, 7 innings 2 runs, and a 2-1 loss. but he'd be here for next year when Reyes, Wright, and Beltran are (hopefully) together and healthy along with Delgado or some other bat at firstbase or in the outfield. and pitchers coming over from the AL to the NL tend to do well[/quote:2tue5avz] I'm not going to say that it guarantees anything, obviously, but Santana and Halladay up front compares pretty decently to Johnson-Schilling. (With a better bullpen.) If one of Reyes and Beltran come back at close to full form before month's end, with Delgado on the heels of that, that hypothetical team-- problematic though it may be-- may well get my bet for pennant darkhorse. [And I'm still of the mind that this season is over. But it sits a bit better after last night's win... and the old-time Shea environment that accompanied it.] Edgy DC Jul 09 2009 10:26 AM This season is not over. They may well not flourish this season, but neither have they made their last run. Nymr83 Jul 09 2009 10:27 AM that d-backs team (the 2001 WS winners) seemed very top-heavy in my mind, but i'm not sure when i look at it you had Johnson and Schilling throw a combined 500 innings of 157/188 ERA+ and then a bunch of league average starts (or below) from other guys (Batista had a good ERA+ but i don't know how much of that was in his 18 starts and how much was in the 30 relief appearences) the bullpen was decent with Kim, Swinfell, Prinz, but obviously Brenly didn't trust them as he went to Batista and then Johnson in relief of Schilling in game 7 of the WS (Batista and Johnson had started games 5 and 6 respectively) on the hitting sie Gonzlez was a (steroid-infused?) monster while Grace and Sanders made big contributions, Matt Williams and Jay Bell were serviceable at the back-ends of their careers, and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC":33w6rfz5]This season is not over. They may well not flourish this season, but neither have they made their last run.[/quote:33w6rfz5] To clarify: given the no-end-in-sight DL stints of Beltran and Reyes and the mid-to-late-August return of Delgado, the team's playoff viability is down to puncher's-chance levels. ("More or less over" might have been closer to my actual sentiment.) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 11:20 AM ="Nymr83"]that d-backs team (the 2001 WS winners) seemed very top-heavy in my mind, but i'm not sure when i look at it you had Johnson and Schilling throw a combined 500 innings of 157/188 ERA+ and then a bunch of league average starts (or below) from other guys (Batista had a good ERA+ but i don't know how much of that was in his 18 starts and how much was in the 30 relief appearences) the bullpen was decent with Kim, Swinfell, Prinz, but obviously Brenly didn't trust them as he went to Batista and then Johnson in relief of Schilling in game 7 of the WS (Batista and Johnson had started games 5 and 6 respectively) on the hitting sie Gonzlez was a (steroid-infused?) monster while Grace and Sanders made big contributions, Matt Williams and Jay Bell were serviceable at the back-ends of their careers, and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball If memory serves, the bullpen, deserved or no, had a bit of a can't-close-the-tough-ones rep by the WS (and Kim did blow 4 out of 23 save chances); that said, they were pretty effective most of the year. Batista was actually almost exactly as effective that year as a reliever as he was a starter. (The splits are almost eerily alike, actually: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=batismi01&year=2001&t=p#sprel) It was one top-heavy squad (Luis' career year, with the only other above-average performances coming from Sanders and the declining Grace)... but I didn't realize how effective they were (3rd in the NL in runs). LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 12:08 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":9nsr1ovv]Claim dat bitch! (3.55 ERA/125 ERA+/24 hits in 25.1 IP) http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/07/indians_designate_herges_for_a.html[/quote:9nsr1ovv] http://www.purplerow.com/2009/7/4/938282/matt-herges-the-reason-we-look-at Matt Herges, still hanging around, available for league-minimum monies. Still damn effective. Frayed Knot Jul 09 2009 12:22 PM ]... and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball Except for that game-tying double in the 9th/game 7 which not only was the biggest hit in the inning that made the Yanx lose both the game and the series but also caused them to sign him to an over-priced 2-year contract a few seasons later (cuz he's clutch don't cha know). Helluva guy if you ask me. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 09 2009 12:38 PM Yes, I love Tony Womack. I shall never forget that game -- or signing up for a nyyfans.com account immediately afterward just to witness their fans suffering. The account still works! Let's see now if Stevie Jeets can find out which one is me! LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 17 2009 11:15 AM Three words: Price. To. Move. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/17/952227/schneider-on-fire-enjoy-it-while Vic Sage Jul 20 2009 10:27 AM overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... Centerfield Jul 20 2009 11:28 AM Too bad Delgado's not going to be ready by the deadline. I wonder if he can be a PTBNL or if we can sneak him through waivers while he's in recovery. smg58 Jul 20 2009 02:30 PM Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care. Nymr83 Jul 20 2009 03:47 PM ="smg58":2nsartq1]Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care.[/quote:2nsartq1] yeah i'm with "i dont care" i dont want to give anything up for Lopez LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:11 AM ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ metirish Jul 22 2009 10:19 AM I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:24 AM I wouldn't mind seeing what Rodriguez would bring. And also, as I brought up to LWFS last night, let's just pretend the Jays get a buttload of terrific prospects for Halladay. ... How crazy would it be then to offer Santana to the team that just missed out? smg58 Jul 22 2009 10:31 AM What if the team that just missed out was the Phillies? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:33 AM I'd listen. Wouldn't you? TransMonk Jul 22 2009 10:39 AM I'd listen, but I consider Santana one of the 4 or 5 core members of the team. And I don't think we're that far away from being able to compete during his prime years. I would want MUCH more than this 2nd place team would be offering for Halladay. duan Jul 22 2009 10:42 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that. seawolf17 Jul 22 2009 10:44 AM ="duan":15lo21u5]am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that.[/quote:15lo21u5] Yes, b/c he's in the first year of a multi-year deal. Why the eff would you replace Santana with Halladay? That's insane. metirish Jul 22 2009 10:46 AM Apparently the Phiilies would not include Drabek in a deal for Halladay . Riccardi saying that a deal is now not likely, much posturing going on one would think. Santana has a full no trade and Rodriguez has a limited one where he can block a trade to ten teams. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:48 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="metirish":1eyasbe2]I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights.[/quote:1eyasbe2] FIP (Fielding-Independent-Pitching statistic) is an attempt to provide an ERA-type metric (it's multiplied by a league-specific number to be scaled like ERA) that measures stuff (HR, BB, and K to be exact) that's under the direct control of pitchers... the idea being to remove the influence of the defense behind a pitcher on his stats. But, yeah, ultimately, that's peripheral. The main thrust is that even the greatest closer (Mariano last year, e.g.) is in real value less valuable than a pretty good position player virtually anywhere on the diamond... but the perception is that the closer is essential. That gap between perception and reality may be the key to extracting something worth something (Pence, e.g.) for a relatively low cost. Although the little kid in me would hate to see Santana go, I'd be intrigued by the idea of what we could get in return, baseball value for baseball value. That said, JCL, his contract severely reduces the market for him-- Halladay's relatively affordable yet, for a year-plus (plus playoffs?). Even then, Halladay's trade value is lower now than it was with, say, 2 1/2 years of that below-market contract If Toronto really is going to trade him, it's a shame for them they didn't seriously consider doing it last year. bmfc1 Jul 22 2009 10:49 AM Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran. G-Fafif Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="bmfc1":zqmjc72m]Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran.[/quote:zqmjc72m] LaRoche should retroactively express embarrassment that the Red Sox lost two of three to the Mets in May. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:55 AM At last, our long national 2-"A LaRoches"-on-the-same-team nightmare is over. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:03 AM The catch with K-Rod is that money is a big issue for most teams, and it's not clear that K-Rod was in anybody else's price range when it wouldn't have taken players to get him this past offseason. Now if somebody offered a similarly good but perhaps overpaid major leaguer you might have a match, but deals like that tend to happen in the offseason. There's also the glass-is-half-full way to look at his numbers: he's been very effective for us in a down year by his standards. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:25 AM The Pirates' booty in the LaRoche deal consists of Argenis Diaz (a younger version of our Argenis, with almost as good a bat) and Hunter Strickland (finesse righty showing excellent control for a 20-year-old at AA, although homers are a concern). MFS62 Jul 22 2009 12:46 PM And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later OlerudOwned Jul 22 2009 01:22 PM ="MFS62":qk01r3dh]And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later[/quote:qk01r3dh] They way they've been running things this season, I'm sure they'll take whatever they can get for him and laugh all the way to the bank. smg58 Jul 22 2009 05:02 PM In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt. In a bit of a surprise, Julio Lugo is a Cardinal; Chris Duncan heads to Pawtucket. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 06:04 PM ="smg58":1f7j0xfg]In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt.[/quote:1f7j0xfg] Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about the worst thing that happened to the Mets. Gwreck Jul 22 2009 11:53 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1wrfg6dm]Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about only the eighth or ninth worst thing that happened to the Mets.[/quote:1wrfg6dm] Fixed it for you. I agree that Cora's killing the offense (maybe slightly more than Murphy or Santos/Schneider) but Cora's poor performance also reflects on Jerry and Omar, I think. It's not like his hitting .240 is an aberration. OlerudOwned Jul 23 2009 12:56 AM Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 01:54 AM ="OlerudOwned":37869gxh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:37869gxh] You are correct...Unfortunately the Mets are under a do not resuscitate order Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 05:18 AM ="OlerudOwned":1wbzyqkh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:1wbzyqkh] He'd have been an upgrade over Cora a month ago assuming he could have been had for "nothing" if we paid his salary. But he's not really good. Theres no point in getting him now. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 05:27 AM ="OlerudOwned"]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Look, if Cora went and got the surgery he needed Omar would have to have done something and Wilson being a good fielder and presumably available would have been a reasonable solution. In the meantime we'd have enjoyed the benefits of a 700 OPS guy vs. a 500 OPS guy; and a good fielder vs. a shitty fielder. It's all vomit under the bridge by now, but just saying. metirish Jul 23 2009 08:22 AM Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:30 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 08:40 AM I agree that allowing Cora to cowboy up (and batting him leadoff) has been terribly wishful thinking. I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this. But I think the Mets braintrust needed to realize that wishing that Cora could somehow summon his best game through the injury was too much risk for too little reward. Maybe the strong May for the team triggered a lot of wishful thinking. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:34 AM ]I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this The Cora we've seen from 2005-2008 is almost as bad as this, unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:43 AM He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this. And better used sparingly --- which he had been before he got hurt --- even at his best. Always good to be patronized by you, thanks. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:57 AM that wasnt being patronizing. ]He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this from 2005 to 2008 he hit .244/.309/.339 (68 OPS+) this year its .242/.322/.295 (66+) you want to show me that he was particularly better defensively, go ahead, but contrary to your assertion he's the same hitter now that he's been the last 4 years. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 09:19 AM ]unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Yeah, talking to me like I'm a twit is pretty uneccessarily insulting. I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL (an activation that apparently shouldn't have happened). The numbers you quote are not part of my "assertion" but including the early part of the season when he played well. His numbers that I am "asserting" about are .212 // .274 //. 244 // .518. And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now, while making a crack about how I "somehow expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04" is doubly insulting. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 10:19 AM bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. the injury didn't cause him to suck. props to him for gutting it out anyway (but thumbs down to the mets for letting him.) its too late now anyway. unless the mets have a better option internally it is no longer worth obtaining one for just this year. ]I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL that wasnt made clear, but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out ]And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period rather than the last 4? he's been BAD since leaving LA, that was why i picked four years, that was when he left LA. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:28 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. And the Cards need middle-infield depth a bit more than they need yet another backup-for-Pujols/sorta-sluggy* backup-corner OF-type. *In 2006-07, that is. He's slugging .389 this year, and David Wright has as many home runs. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 10:32 AM This is too ridiculous ]bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. No, it's not, because you decided to make hay over ]the real Cora is not as bad as this ] the injury didn't cause him to suck. It appears to have made him play worse. ]that wasnt made clear It was clear enough. ]but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out I think it's clear that I'm with you there. Maybe not. ]and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period I didn't "decide" anything. You're the one who has been framing. My only timeframe was the period he has been hurt. Do I really have to spell everything out here? He's better as an uninjured backup shortstop than an injured fulltime one. I think that's a clear position and one I'm willing to defend. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 11:22 AM RRRRRRROW! smg58 Jul 23 2009 11:32 AM Wilson's a mediocre hitter but consistently one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. That alone would have made him an upgrade. But there's really no point now. Cora was signed to be a backup, and if he were playing only as much as the Mets originally expected him to play nobody would be complaining that harshly. Plus, he might have been given more time off to heal properly if the Mets weren't utterly desperate, and his numbers might actually look better. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:33 AM I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother? All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. ]I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Even when you do your hair like that? seawolf17 Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 01:05 PM ="seawolf17"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. The look on his face-- half "O" face, half confused St. Bernard-- helps. I hope he finds International League trophies just as fuckable-- by all reports, he's headed for RI. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:50 PM ="Frayed Knot":p8keo0dg] ="metirish":p8keo0dg]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?[/quote:p8keo0dg][/quote:p8keo0dg] All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. Would that be MFY AAA meathead Shelly Duncan or the pixie actress of stage and screen possibly? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 11:05 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:10 AM ="Nymr83"]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Wallace is the interesting name here. Considered to be among the best college bats to come along in many years, he was passed over by a number of teams (StL got him with the #13 pick) out of concern for where he'd play. In short, he's HUGE!, and huge as in wide not as in tall (BB-Ref lists him at 6' 1" - 245). In 'Moneyball' terms (since he's headed to Oakland) "he wears a big pair of underwear". The thought is that he'll be a DH sooner rather than later which isn't a great thing to be saying about a guy not yet 23 y/o. For now, they say his hands are at least decent and he's not as immobile as he looks. But, above all, he can rake. Already at AAA barely a year after signing, he blew through three different levels in between and will probably be in Oakland before the year is out. But, man, Oakland sounds like they're putting together slow-pitch softball teams again. Between Giambi, Jack Cust, Daric Barton (also snagged in a trade w/StL - for Mulder) and now Wallace they've got at least 4 'stocky' (I'm being nice here) 1B/DH types not seen since the days when the brothers Giambi were teamed with Matt Stairs & John Jaha. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:09 AM I saw some on him. I liked his waddle. Like a lefthanded Bob Horner. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 01:28 PM Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 01:48 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. Just goes to show you how much of a buyer's market this is; the sheer number of potential in-it-to-win-it teams the last two years has resuscitated the good-old-fashioned deadline deal, however briefly, even in the face of cost constraints and the rising value of FA-compensatory draft picks. (Although it kinda seemed from Day One that Beane had an eye toward Holliday's departure-- like they acquired him almost exclusively like a short-sell, either for the draft picks or the trade value-- didn't it?) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 01:24 AM Consider the source, but still-- Re-heeeeeally? ]The Rangers remain in the market for a bat, with the Indians' Ryan Garko and Mets' Gary Sheffield among their targets, even though Sheffield currently is on the disabled list. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9854856/BoSox-involved-in-Halladay-talks-and-more- seawolf17 Jul 27 2009 08:07 AM I wish he hadn't gotten hurt, because I think Sheffield -- and possibly Livan -- are the Mets two best trading chips right now. I read somewhere recently that Sheffield would revolt if he got dealt, though, so as always with him, it'd be buyer beware. Frayed Knot Jul 27 2009 08:42 AM Sheffield always threatens to revolt - but the thing is, this time he could easily make it stick. He was all but ready to retire anyway after being released by Detroit; he had $14mil coming to him and nothing monetarily to gain from playing unless he's really lying and is secretly dying to play next year too only for a fraction of this year's salary. But the Mets (he claims) were a good fit for him and so he took the gig when offered. But now if dealt somewhere he doesn't like (I don't think he has any No-Trade protection) he can simply walk-away rather than pull up stakes and move across the country for 9 weeks and not lost a thing except a possible shot at another ring.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="Nymr83":2tue5avz] ="MFS62":2tue5avz]I'm still not sure about how much Halliday could help the current situation. He's played his entire ML career in the American League, so we don't know how well he can hit. Later[/quote:2tue5avz] he'd probably turn into another Santana, 7 innings 2 runs, and a 2-1 loss. but he'd be here for next year when Reyes, Wright, and Beltran are (hopefully) together and healthy along with Delgado or some other bat at firstbase or in the outfield. and pitchers coming over from the AL to the NL tend to do well[/quote:2tue5avz] I'm not going to say that it guarantees anything, obviously, but Santana and Halladay up front compares pretty decently to Johnson-Schilling. (With a better bullpen.) If one of Reyes and Beltran come back at close to full form before month's end, with Delgado on the heels of that, that hypothetical team-- problematic though it may be-- may well get my bet for pennant darkhorse. [And I'm still of the mind that this season is over. But it sits a bit better after last night's win... and the old-time Shea environment that accompanied it.] Edgy DC Jul 09 2009 10:26 AM This season is not over. They may well not flourish this season, but neither have they made their last run. Nymr83 Jul 09 2009 10:27 AM that d-backs team (the 2001 WS winners) seemed very top-heavy in my mind, but i'm not sure when i look at it you had Johnson and Schilling throw a combined 500 innings of 157/188 ERA+ and then a bunch of league average starts (or below) from other guys (Batista had a good ERA+ but i don't know how much of that was in his 18 starts and how much was in the 30 relief appearences) the bullpen was decent with Kim, Swinfell, Prinz, but obviously Brenly didn't trust them as he went to Batista and then Johnson in relief of Schilling in game 7 of the WS (Batista and Johnson had started games 5 and 6 respectively) on the hitting sie Gonzlez was a (steroid-infused?) monster while Grace and Sanders made big contributions, Matt Williams and Jay Bell were serviceable at the back-ends of their careers, and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 10:54 AM ="Edgy DC":33w6rfz5]This season is not over. They may well not flourish this season, but neither have they made their last run.[/quote:33w6rfz5] To clarify: given the no-end-in-sight DL stints of Beltran and Reyes and the mid-to-late-August return of Delgado, the team's playoff viability is down to puncher's-chance levels. ("More or less over" might have been closer to my actual sentiment.) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 11:20 AM ="Nymr83"]that d-backs team (the 2001 WS winners) seemed very top-heavy in my mind, but i'm not sure when i look at it you had Johnson and Schilling throw a combined 500 innings of 157/188 ERA+ and then a bunch of league average starts (or below) from other guys (Batista had a good ERA+ but i don't know how much of that was in his 18 starts and how much was in the 30 relief appearences) the bullpen was decent with Kim, Swinfell, Prinz, but obviously Brenly didn't trust them as he went to Batista and then Johnson in relief of Schilling in game 7 of the WS (Batista and Johnson had started games 5 and 6 respectively) on the hitting sie Gonzlez was a (steroid-infused?) monster while Grace and Sanders made big contributions, Matt Williams and Jay Bell were serviceable at the back-ends of their careers, and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball If memory serves, the bullpen, deserved or no, had a bit of a can't-close-the-tough-ones rep by the WS (and Kim did blow 4 out of 23 save chances); that said, they were pretty effective most of the year. Batista was actually almost exactly as effective that year as a reliever as he was a starter. (The splits are almost eerily alike, actually: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=batismi01&year=2001&t=p#sprel) It was one top-heavy squad (Luis' career year, with the only other above-average performances coming from Sanders and the declining Grace)... but I didn't realize how effective they were (3rd in the NL in runs). LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 12:08 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":9nsr1ovv]Claim dat bitch! (3.55 ERA/125 ERA+/24 hits in 25.1 IP) http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/07/indians_designate_herges_for_a.html[/quote:9nsr1ovv] http://www.purplerow.com/2009/7/4/938282/matt-herges-the-reason-we-look-at Matt Herges, still hanging around, available for league-minimum monies. Still damn effective. Frayed Knot Jul 09 2009 12:22 PM ]... and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball Except for that game-tying double in the 9th/game 7 which not only was the biggest hit in the inning that made the Yanx lose both the game and the series but also caused them to sign him to an over-priced 2-year contract a few seasons later (cuz he's clutch don't cha know). Helluva guy if you ask me. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 09 2009 12:38 PM Yes, I love Tony Womack. I shall never forget that game -- or signing up for a nyyfans.com account immediately afterward just to witness their fans suffering. The account still works! Let's see now if Stevie Jeets can find out which one is me! LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 17 2009 11:15 AM Three words: Price. To. Move. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/17/952227/schneider-on-fire-enjoy-it-while Vic Sage Jul 20 2009 10:27 AM overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... Centerfield Jul 20 2009 11:28 AM Too bad Delgado's not going to be ready by the deadline. I wonder if he can be a PTBNL or if we can sneak him through waivers while he's in recovery. smg58 Jul 20 2009 02:30 PM Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care. Nymr83 Jul 20 2009 03:47 PM ="smg58":2nsartq1]Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care.[/quote:2nsartq1] yeah i'm with "i dont care" i dont want to give anything up for Lopez LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:11 AM ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ metirish Jul 22 2009 10:19 AM I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:24 AM I wouldn't mind seeing what Rodriguez would bring. And also, as I brought up to LWFS last night, let's just pretend the Jays get a buttload of terrific prospects for Halladay. ... How crazy would it be then to offer Santana to the team that just missed out? smg58 Jul 22 2009 10:31 AM What if the team that just missed out was the Phillies? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:33 AM I'd listen. Wouldn't you? TransMonk Jul 22 2009 10:39 AM I'd listen, but I consider Santana one of the 4 or 5 core members of the team. And I don't think we're that far away from being able to compete during his prime years. I would want MUCH more than this 2nd place team would be offering for Halladay. duan Jul 22 2009 10:42 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that. seawolf17 Jul 22 2009 10:44 AM ="duan":15lo21u5]am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that.[/quote:15lo21u5] Yes, b/c he's in the first year of a multi-year deal. Why the eff would you replace Santana with Halladay? That's insane. metirish Jul 22 2009 10:46 AM Apparently the Phiilies would not include Drabek in a deal for Halladay . Riccardi saying that a deal is now not likely, much posturing going on one would think. Santana has a full no trade and Rodriguez has a limited one where he can block a trade to ten teams. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:48 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="metirish":1eyasbe2]I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights.[/quote:1eyasbe2] FIP (Fielding-Independent-Pitching statistic) is an attempt to provide an ERA-type metric (it's multiplied by a league-specific number to be scaled like ERA) that measures stuff (HR, BB, and K to be exact) that's under the direct control of pitchers... the idea being to remove the influence of the defense behind a pitcher on his stats. But, yeah, ultimately, that's peripheral. The main thrust is that even the greatest closer (Mariano last year, e.g.) is in real value less valuable than a pretty good position player virtually anywhere on the diamond... but the perception is that the closer is essential. That gap between perception and reality may be the key to extracting something worth something (Pence, e.g.) for a relatively low cost. Although the little kid in me would hate to see Santana go, I'd be intrigued by the idea of what we could get in return, baseball value for baseball value. That said, JCL, his contract severely reduces the market for him-- Halladay's relatively affordable yet, for a year-plus (plus playoffs?). Even then, Halladay's trade value is lower now than it was with, say, 2 1/2 years of that below-market contract If Toronto really is going to trade him, it's a shame for them they didn't seriously consider doing it last year. bmfc1 Jul 22 2009 10:49 AM Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran. G-Fafif Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="bmfc1":zqmjc72m]Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran.[/quote:zqmjc72m] LaRoche should retroactively express embarrassment that the Red Sox lost two of three to the Mets in May. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:55 AM At last, our long national 2-"A LaRoches"-on-the-same-team nightmare is over. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:03 AM The catch with K-Rod is that money is a big issue for most teams, and it's not clear that K-Rod was in anybody else's price range when it wouldn't have taken players to get him this past offseason. Now if somebody offered a similarly good but perhaps overpaid major leaguer you might have a match, but deals like that tend to happen in the offseason. There's also the glass-is-half-full way to look at his numbers: he's been very effective for us in a down year by his standards. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:25 AM The Pirates' booty in the LaRoche deal consists of Argenis Diaz (a younger version of our Argenis, with almost as good a bat) and Hunter Strickland (finesse righty showing excellent control for a 20-year-old at AA, although homers are a concern). MFS62 Jul 22 2009 12:46 PM And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later OlerudOwned Jul 22 2009 01:22 PM ="MFS62":qk01r3dh]And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later[/quote:qk01r3dh] They way they've been running things this season, I'm sure they'll take whatever they can get for him and laugh all the way to the bank. smg58 Jul 22 2009 05:02 PM In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt. In a bit of a surprise, Julio Lugo is a Cardinal; Chris Duncan heads to Pawtucket. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 06:04 PM ="smg58":1f7j0xfg]In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt.[/quote:1f7j0xfg] Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about the worst thing that happened to the Mets. Gwreck Jul 22 2009 11:53 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1wrfg6dm]Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about only the eighth or ninth worst thing that happened to the Mets.[/quote:1wrfg6dm] Fixed it for you. I agree that Cora's killing the offense (maybe slightly more than Murphy or Santos/Schneider) but Cora's poor performance also reflects on Jerry and Omar, I think. It's not like his hitting .240 is an aberration. OlerudOwned Jul 23 2009 12:56 AM Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 01:54 AM ="OlerudOwned":37869gxh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:37869gxh] You are correct...Unfortunately the Mets are under a do not resuscitate order Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 05:18 AM ="OlerudOwned":1wbzyqkh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:1wbzyqkh] He'd have been an upgrade over Cora a month ago assuming he could have been had for "nothing" if we paid his salary. But he's not really good. Theres no point in getting him now. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 05:27 AM ="OlerudOwned"]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Look, if Cora went and got the surgery he needed Omar would have to have done something and Wilson being a good fielder and presumably available would have been a reasonable solution. In the meantime we'd have enjoyed the benefits of a 700 OPS guy vs. a 500 OPS guy; and a good fielder vs. a shitty fielder. It's all vomit under the bridge by now, but just saying. metirish Jul 23 2009 08:22 AM Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:30 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 08:40 AM I agree that allowing Cora to cowboy up (and batting him leadoff) has been terribly wishful thinking. I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this. But I think the Mets braintrust needed to realize that wishing that Cora could somehow summon his best game through the injury was too much risk for too little reward. Maybe the strong May for the team triggered a lot of wishful thinking. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:34 AM ]I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this The Cora we've seen from 2005-2008 is almost as bad as this, unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:43 AM He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this. And better used sparingly --- which he had been before he got hurt --- even at his best. Always good to be patronized by you, thanks. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:57 AM that wasnt being patronizing. ]He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this from 2005 to 2008 he hit .244/.309/.339 (68 OPS+) this year its .242/.322/.295 (66+) you want to show me that he was particularly better defensively, go ahead, but contrary to your assertion he's the same hitter now that he's been the last 4 years. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 09:19 AM ]unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Yeah, talking to me like I'm a twit is pretty uneccessarily insulting. I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL (an activation that apparently shouldn't have happened). The numbers you quote are not part of my "assertion" but including the early part of the season when he played well. His numbers that I am "asserting" about are .212 // .274 //. 244 // .518. And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now, while making a crack about how I "somehow expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04" is doubly insulting. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 10:19 AM bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. the injury didn't cause him to suck. props to him for gutting it out anyway (but thumbs down to the mets for letting him.) its too late now anyway. unless the mets have a better option internally it is no longer worth obtaining one for just this year. ]I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL that wasnt made clear, but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out ]And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period rather than the last 4? he's been BAD since leaving LA, that was why i picked four years, that was when he left LA. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:28 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. And the Cards need middle-infield depth a bit more than they need yet another backup-for-Pujols/sorta-sluggy* backup-corner OF-type. *In 2006-07, that is. He's slugging .389 this year, and David Wright has as many home runs. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 10:32 AM This is too ridiculous ]bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. No, it's not, because you decided to make hay over ]the real Cora is not as bad as this ] the injury didn't cause him to suck. It appears to have made him play worse. ]that wasnt made clear It was clear enough. ]but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out I think it's clear that I'm with you there. Maybe not. ]and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period I didn't "decide" anything. You're the one who has been framing. My only timeframe was the period he has been hurt. Do I really have to spell everything out here? He's better as an uninjured backup shortstop than an injured fulltime one. I think that's a clear position and one I'm willing to defend. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 11:22 AM RRRRRRROW! smg58 Jul 23 2009 11:32 AM Wilson's a mediocre hitter but consistently one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. That alone would have made him an upgrade. But there's really no point now. Cora was signed to be a backup, and if he were playing only as much as the Mets originally expected him to play nobody would be complaining that harshly. Plus, he might have been given more time off to heal properly if the Mets weren't utterly desperate, and his numbers might actually look better. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:33 AM I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother? All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. ]I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Even when you do your hair like that? seawolf17 Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 01:05 PM ="seawolf17"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. The look on his face-- half "O" face, half confused St. Bernard-- helps. I hope he finds International League trophies just as fuckable-- by all reports, he's headed for RI. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:50 PM ="Frayed Knot":p8keo0dg] ="metirish":p8keo0dg]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?[/quote:p8keo0dg][/quote:p8keo0dg] All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. Would that be MFY AAA meathead Shelly Duncan or the pixie actress of stage and screen possibly? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 11:05 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:10 AM ="Nymr83"]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Wallace is the interesting name here. Considered to be among the best college bats to come along in many years, he was passed over by a number of teams (StL got him with the #13 pick) out of concern for where he'd play. In short, he's HUGE!, and huge as in wide not as in tall (BB-Ref lists him at 6' 1" - 245). In 'Moneyball' terms (since he's headed to Oakland) "he wears a big pair of underwear". The thought is that he'll be a DH sooner rather than later which isn't a great thing to be saying about a guy not yet 23 y/o. For now, they say his hands are at least decent and he's not as immobile as he looks. But, above all, he can rake. Already at AAA barely a year after signing, he blew through three different levels in between and will probably be in Oakland before the year is out. But, man, Oakland sounds like they're putting together slow-pitch softball teams again. Between Giambi, Jack Cust, Daric Barton (also snagged in a trade w/StL - for Mulder) and now Wallace they've got at least 4 'stocky' (I'm being nice here) 1B/DH types not seen since the days when the brothers Giambi were teamed with Matt Stairs & John Jaha. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:09 AM I saw some on him. I liked his waddle. Like a lefthanded Bob Horner. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 01:28 PM Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 01:48 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. Just goes to show you how much of a buyer's market this is; the sheer number of potential in-it-to-win-it teams the last two years has resuscitated the good-old-fashioned deadline deal, however briefly, even in the face of cost constraints and the rising value of FA-compensatory draft picks. (Although it kinda seemed from Day One that Beane had an eye toward Holliday's departure-- like they acquired him almost exclusively like a short-sell, either for the draft picks or the trade value-- didn't it?) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 01:24 AM Consider the source, but still-- Re-heeeeeally? ]The Rangers remain in the market for a bat, with the Indians' Ryan Garko and Mets' Gary Sheffield among their targets, even though Sheffield currently is on the disabled list. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9854856/BoSox-involved-in-Halladay-talks-and-more- seawolf17 Jul 27 2009 08:07 AM I wish he hadn't gotten hurt, because I think Sheffield -- and possibly Livan -- are the Mets two best trading chips right now. I read somewhere recently that Sheffield would revolt if he got dealt, though, so as always with him, it'd be buyer beware. Frayed Knot Jul 27 2009 08:42 AM Sheffield always threatens to revolt - but the thing is, this time he could easily make it stick. He was all but ready to retire anyway after being released by Detroit; he had $14mil coming to him and nothing monetarily to gain from playing unless he's really lying and is secretly dying to play next year too only for a fraction of this year's salary. But the Mets (he claims) were a good fit for him and so he took the gig when offered. But now if dealt somewhere he doesn't like (I don't think he has any No-Trade protection) he can simply walk-away rather than pull up stakes and move across the country for 9 weeks and not lost a thing except a possible shot at another ring.

[Guest Edgy DC]

This season is not over.

They may well not flourish this season, but neither have they made their last run.

[nymr83]

that d-backs team (the 2001 WS winners) seemed very top-heavy in my mind, but i'm not sure when i look at it

you had Johnson and Schilling throw a combined 500 innings of 157/188 ERA+ and then a bunch of league average starts (or below) from other guys (Batista had a good ERA+ but i don't know how much of that was in his 18 starts and how much was in the 30 relief appearences)

the bullpen was decent with Kim, Swinfell, Prinz, but obviously Brenly didn't trust them as he went to Batista and then Johnson in relief of Schilling in game 7 of the WS (Batista and Johnson had started games 5 and 6 respectively)

on the hitting sie Gonzlez was a (steroid-infused?) monster while Grace and Sanders made big contributions, Matt Williams and Jay Bell were serviceable at the back-ends of their careers, and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="Edgy DC":33w6rfz5]This season is not over. They may well not flourish this season, but neither have they made their last run.[/quote:33w6rfz5] To clarify: given the no-end-in-sight DL stints of Beltran and Reyes and the mid-to-late-August return of Delgado, the team's playoff viability is down to puncher's-chance levels. ("More or less over" might have been closer to my actual sentiment.)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 11:20 AM

="Nymr83"]that d-backs team (the 2001 WS winners) seemed very top-heavy in my mind, but i'm not sure when i look at it you had Johnson and Schilling throw a combined 500 innings of 157/188 ERA+ and then a bunch of league average starts (or below) from other guys (Batista had a good ERA+ but i don't know how much of that was in his 18 starts and how much was in the 30 relief appearences) the bullpen was decent with Kim, Swinfell, Prinz, but obviously Brenly didn't trust them as he went to Batista and then Johnson in relief of Schilling in game 7 of the WS (Batista and Johnson had started games 5 and 6 respectively) on the hitting sie Gonzlez was a (steroid-infused?) monster while Grace and Sanders made big contributions, Matt Williams and Jay Bell were serviceable at the back-ends of their careers, and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball If memory serves, the bullpen, deserved or no, had a bit of a can't-close-the-tough-ones rep by the WS (and Kim did blow 4 out of 23 save chances); that said, they were pretty effective most of the year. Batista was actually almost exactly as effective that year as a reliever as he was a starter. (The splits are almost eerily alike, actually: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=batismi01&year=2001&t=p#sprel) It was one top-heavy squad (Luis' career year, with the only other above-average performances coming from Sanders and the declining Grace)... but I didn't realize how effective they were (3rd in the NL in runs).

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 09 2009 12:08 PM

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":9nsr1ovv]Claim dat bitch! (3.55 ERA/125 ERA+/24 hits in 25.1 IP) http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/07/indians_designate_herges_for_a.html[/quote:9nsr1ovv] http://www.purplerow.com/2009/7/4/938282/matt-herges-the-reason-we-look-at Matt Herges, still hanging around, available for league-minimum monies. Still damn effective. Frayed Knot Jul 09 2009 12:22 PM ]... and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball Except for that game-tying double in the 9th/game 7 which not only was the biggest hit in the inning that made the Yanx lose both the game and the series but also caused them to sign him to an over-priced 2-year contract a few seasons later (cuz he's clutch don't cha know). Helluva guy if you ask me. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 09 2009 12:38 PM Yes, I love Tony Womack. I shall never forget that game -- or signing up for a nyyfans.com account immediately afterward just to witness their fans suffering. The account still works! Let's see now if Stevie Jeets can find out which one is me! LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 17 2009 11:15 AM Three words: Price. To. Move. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/17/952227/schneider-on-fire-enjoy-it-while Vic Sage Jul 20 2009 10:27 AM overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... Centerfield Jul 20 2009 11:28 AM Too bad Delgado's not going to be ready by the deadline. I wonder if he can be a PTBNL or if we can sneak him through waivers while he's in recovery. smg58 Jul 20 2009 02:30 PM Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care. Nymr83 Jul 20 2009 03:47 PM ="smg58":2nsartq1]Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care.[/quote:2nsartq1] yeah i'm with "i dont care" i dont want to give anything up for Lopez LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:11 AM ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ metirish Jul 22 2009 10:19 AM I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:24 AM I wouldn't mind seeing what Rodriguez would bring. And also, as I brought up to LWFS last night, let's just pretend the Jays get a buttload of terrific prospects for Halladay. ... How crazy would it be then to offer Santana to the team that just missed out? smg58 Jul 22 2009 10:31 AM What if the team that just missed out was the Phillies? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:33 AM I'd listen. Wouldn't you? TransMonk Jul 22 2009 10:39 AM I'd listen, but I consider Santana one of the 4 or 5 core members of the team. And I don't think we're that far away from being able to compete during his prime years. I would want MUCH more than this 2nd place team would be offering for Halladay. duan Jul 22 2009 10:42 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that. seawolf17 Jul 22 2009 10:44 AM ="duan":15lo21u5]am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that.[/quote:15lo21u5] Yes, b/c he's in the first year of a multi-year deal. Why the eff would you replace Santana with Halladay? That's insane. metirish Jul 22 2009 10:46 AM Apparently the Phiilies would not include Drabek in a deal for Halladay . Riccardi saying that a deal is now not likely, much posturing going on one would think. Santana has a full no trade and Rodriguez has a limited one where he can block a trade to ten teams. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:48 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="metirish":1eyasbe2]I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights.[/quote:1eyasbe2] FIP (Fielding-Independent-Pitching statistic) is an attempt to provide an ERA-type metric (it's multiplied by a league-specific number to be scaled like ERA) that measures stuff (HR, BB, and K to be exact) that's under the direct control of pitchers... the idea being to remove the influence of the defense behind a pitcher on his stats. But, yeah, ultimately, that's peripheral. The main thrust is that even the greatest closer (Mariano last year, e.g.) is in real value less valuable than a pretty good position player virtually anywhere on the diamond... but the perception is that the closer is essential. That gap between perception and reality may be the key to extracting something worth something (Pence, e.g.) for a relatively low cost. Although the little kid in me would hate to see Santana go, I'd be intrigued by the idea of what we could get in return, baseball value for baseball value. That said, JCL, his contract severely reduces the market for him-- Halladay's relatively affordable yet, for a year-plus (plus playoffs?). Even then, Halladay's trade value is lower now than it was with, say, 2 1/2 years of that below-market contract If Toronto really is going to trade him, it's a shame for them they didn't seriously consider doing it last year. bmfc1 Jul 22 2009 10:49 AM Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran. G-Fafif Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="bmfc1":zqmjc72m]Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran.[/quote:zqmjc72m] LaRoche should retroactively express embarrassment that the Red Sox lost two of three to the Mets in May. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:55 AM At last, our long national 2-"A LaRoches"-on-the-same-team nightmare is over. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:03 AM The catch with K-Rod is that money is a big issue for most teams, and it's not clear that K-Rod was in anybody else's price range when it wouldn't have taken players to get him this past offseason. Now if somebody offered a similarly good but perhaps overpaid major leaguer you might have a match, but deals like that tend to happen in the offseason. There's also the glass-is-half-full way to look at his numbers: he's been very effective for us in a down year by his standards. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:25 AM The Pirates' booty in the LaRoche deal consists of Argenis Diaz (a younger version of our Argenis, with almost as good a bat) and Hunter Strickland (finesse righty showing excellent control for a 20-year-old at AA, although homers are a concern). MFS62 Jul 22 2009 12:46 PM And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later OlerudOwned Jul 22 2009 01:22 PM ="MFS62":qk01r3dh]And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later[/quote:qk01r3dh] They way they've been running things this season, I'm sure they'll take whatever they can get for him and laugh all the way to the bank. smg58 Jul 22 2009 05:02 PM In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt. In a bit of a surprise, Julio Lugo is a Cardinal; Chris Duncan heads to Pawtucket. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 06:04 PM ="smg58":1f7j0xfg]In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt.[/quote:1f7j0xfg] Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about the worst thing that happened to the Mets. Gwreck Jul 22 2009 11:53 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1wrfg6dm]Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about only the eighth or ninth worst thing that happened to the Mets.[/quote:1wrfg6dm] Fixed it for you. I agree that Cora's killing the offense (maybe slightly more than Murphy or Santos/Schneider) but Cora's poor performance also reflects on Jerry and Omar, I think. It's not like his hitting .240 is an aberration. OlerudOwned Jul 23 2009 12:56 AM Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 01:54 AM ="OlerudOwned":37869gxh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:37869gxh] You are correct...Unfortunately the Mets are under a do not resuscitate order Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 05:18 AM ="OlerudOwned":1wbzyqkh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:1wbzyqkh] He'd have been an upgrade over Cora a month ago assuming he could have been had for "nothing" if we paid his salary. But he's not really good. Theres no point in getting him now. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 05:27 AM ="OlerudOwned"]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Look, if Cora went and got the surgery he needed Omar would have to have done something and Wilson being a good fielder and presumably available would have been a reasonable solution. In the meantime we'd have enjoyed the benefits of a 700 OPS guy vs. a 500 OPS guy; and a good fielder vs. a shitty fielder. It's all vomit under the bridge by now, but just saying. metirish Jul 23 2009 08:22 AM Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:30 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 08:40 AM I agree that allowing Cora to cowboy up (and batting him leadoff) has been terribly wishful thinking. I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this. But I think the Mets braintrust needed to realize that wishing that Cora could somehow summon his best game through the injury was too much risk for too little reward. Maybe the strong May for the team triggered a lot of wishful thinking. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:34 AM ]I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this The Cora we've seen from 2005-2008 is almost as bad as this, unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:43 AM He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this. And better used sparingly --- which he had been before he got hurt --- even at his best. Always good to be patronized by you, thanks. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:57 AM that wasnt being patronizing. ]He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this from 2005 to 2008 he hit .244/.309/.339 (68 OPS+) this year its .242/.322/.295 (66+) you want to show me that he was particularly better defensively, go ahead, but contrary to your assertion he's the same hitter now that he's been the last 4 years. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 09:19 AM ]unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Yeah, talking to me like I'm a twit is pretty uneccessarily insulting. I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL (an activation that apparently shouldn't have happened). The numbers you quote are not part of my "assertion" but including the early part of the season when he played well. His numbers that I am "asserting" about are .212 // .274 //. 244 // .518. And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now, while making a crack about how I "somehow expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04" is doubly insulting. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 10:19 AM bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. the injury didn't cause him to suck. props to him for gutting it out anyway (but thumbs down to the mets for letting him.) its too late now anyway. unless the mets have a better option internally it is no longer worth obtaining one for just this year. ]I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL that wasnt made clear, but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out ]And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period rather than the last 4? he's been BAD since leaving LA, that was why i picked four years, that was when he left LA. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:28 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. And the Cards need middle-infield depth a bit more than they need yet another backup-for-Pujols/sorta-sluggy* backup-corner OF-type. *In 2006-07, that is. He's slugging .389 this year, and David Wright has as many home runs. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 10:32 AM This is too ridiculous ]bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. No, it's not, because you decided to make hay over ]the real Cora is not as bad as this ] the injury didn't cause him to suck. It appears to have made him play worse. ]that wasnt made clear It was clear enough. ]but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out I think it's clear that I'm with you there. Maybe not. ]and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period I didn't "decide" anything. You're the one who has been framing. My only timeframe was the period he has been hurt. Do I really have to spell everything out here? He's better as an uninjured backup shortstop than an injured fulltime one. I think that's a clear position and one I'm willing to defend. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 11:22 AM RRRRRRROW! smg58 Jul 23 2009 11:32 AM Wilson's a mediocre hitter but consistently one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. That alone would have made him an upgrade. But there's really no point now. Cora was signed to be a backup, and if he were playing only as much as the Mets originally expected him to play nobody would be complaining that harshly. Plus, he might have been given more time off to heal properly if the Mets weren't utterly desperate, and his numbers might actually look better. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:33 AM I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother? All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. ]I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Even when you do your hair like that? seawolf17 Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 01:05 PM ="seawolf17"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. The look on his face-- half "O" face, half confused St. Bernard-- helps. I hope he finds International League trophies just as fuckable-- by all reports, he's headed for RI. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:50 PM ="Frayed Knot":p8keo0dg] ="metirish":p8keo0dg]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?[/quote:p8keo0dg][/quote:p8keo0dg] All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. Would that be MFY AAA meathead Shelly Duncan or the pixie actress of stage and screen possibly? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 11:05 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:10 AM ="Nymr83"]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Wallace is the interesting name here. Considered to be among the best college bats to come along in many years, he was passed over by a number of teams (StL got him with the #13 pick) out of concern for where he'd play. In short, he's HUGE!, and huge as in wide not as in tall (BB-Ref lists him at 6' 1" - 245). In 'Moneyball' terms (since he's headed to Oakland) "he wears a big pair of underwear". The thought is that he'll be a DH sooner rather than later which isn't a great thing to be saying about a guy not yet 23 y/o. For now, they say his hands are at least decent and he's not as immobile as he looks. But, above all, he can rake. Already at AAA barely a year after signing, he blew through three different levels in between and will probably be in Oakland before the year is out. But, man, Oakland sounds like they're putting together slow-pitch softball teams again. Between Giambi, Jack Cust, Daric Barton (also snagged in a trade w/StL - for Mulder) and now Wallace they've got at least 4 'stocky' (I'm being nice here) 1B/DH types not seen since the days when the brothers Giambi were teamed with Matt Stairs & John Jaha. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:09 AM I saw some on him. I liked his waddle. Like a lefthanded Bob Horner. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 01:28 PM Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 01:48 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. Just goes to show you how much of a buyer's market this is; the sheer number of potential in-it-to-win-it teams the last two years has resuscitated the good-old-fashioned deadline deal, however briefly, even in the face of cost constraints and the rising value of FA-compensatory draft picks. (Although it kinda seemed from Day One that Beane had an eye toward Holliday's departure-- like they acquired him almost exclusively like a short-sell, either for the draft picks or the trade value-- didn't it?) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 01:24 AM Consider the source, but still-- Re-heeeeeally? ]The Rangers remain in the market for a bat, with the Indians' Ryan Garko and Mets' Gary Sheffield among their targets, even though Sheffield currently is on the disabled list. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9854856/BoSox-involved-in-Halladay-talks-and-more- seawolf17 Jul 27 2009 08:07 AM I wish he hadn't gotten hurt, because I think Sheffield -- and possibly Livan -- are the Mets two best trading chips right now. I read somewhere recently that Sheffield would revolt if he got dealt, though, so as always with him, it'd be buyer beware. Frayed Knot Jul 27 2009 08:42 AM Sheffield always threatens to revolt - but the thing is, this time he could easily make it stick. He was all but ready to retire anyway after being released by Detroit; he had $14mil coming to him and nothing monetarily to gain from playing unless he's really lying and is secretly dying to play next year too only for a fraction of this year's salary. But the Mets (he claims) were a good fit for him and so he took the gig when offered. But now if dealt somewhere he doesn't like (I don't think he has any No-Trade protection) he can simply walk-away rather than pull up stakes and move across the country for 9 weeks and not lost a thing except a possible shot at another ring.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="Nymr83"]that d-backs team (the 2001 WS winners) seemed very top-heavy in my mind, but i'm not sure when i look at it you had Johnson and Schilling throw a combined 500 innings of 157/188 ERA+ and then a bunch of league average starts (or below) from other guys (Batista had a good ERA+ but i don't know how much of that was in his 18 starts and how much was in the 30 relief appearences) the bullpen was decent with Kim, Swinfell, Prinz, but obviously Brenly didn't trust them as he went to Batista and then Johnson in relief of Schilling in game 7 of the WS (Batista and Johnson had started games 5 and 6 respectively) on the hitting sie Gonzlez was a (steroid-infused?) monster while Grace and Sanders made big contributions, Matt Williams and Jay Bell were serviceable at the back-ends of their careers, and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball

If memory serves, the bullpen, deserved or no, had a bit of a can't-close-the-tough-ones rep by the WS (and Kim did blow 4 out of 23 save chances); that said, they were pretty effective most of the year.

Batista was actually almost exactly as effective that year as a reliever as he was a starter. (The splits are almost eerily alike, actually:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=batismi01&year=2001&t=p#sprel)

It was one top-heavy squad (Luis' career year, with the only other above-average performances coming from Sanders and the declining Grace)... but I didn't realize how effective they were (3rd in the NL in runs).

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr":9nsr1ovv]Claim dat bitch! (3.55 ERA/125 ERA+/24 hits in 25.1 IP) http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2009/07/indians_designate_herges_for_a.html[/quote:9nsr1ovv] http://www.purplerow.com/2009/7/4/938282/matt-herges-the-reason-we-look-at Matt Herges, still hanging around, available for league-minimum monies. Still damn effective.

Frayed Knot Jul 09 2009 12:22 PM

]... and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball Except for that game-tying double in the 9th/game 7 which not only was the biggest hit in the inning that made the Yanx lose both the game and the series but also caused them to sign him to an over-priced 2-year contract a few seasons later (cuz he's clutch don't cha know). Helluva guy if you ask me.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 09 2009 12:38 PM

Yes, I love Tony Womack. I shall never forget that game -- or signing up for a nyyfans.com account immediately afterward just to witness their fans suffering. The account still works! Let's see now if Stevie Jeets can find out which one is me!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 17 2009 11:15 AM

Three words: Price. To. Move. http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/17/952227/schneider-on-fire-enjoy-it-while

Vic Sage Jul 20 2009 10:27 AM

overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball...

Centerfield Jul 20 2009 11:28 AM

Too bad Delgado's not going to be ready by the deadline. I wonder if he can be a PTBNL or if we can sneak him through waivers while he's in recovery.

smg58 Jul 20 2009 02:30 PM

Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care.

Nymr83 Jul 20 2009 03:47 PM

="smg58":2nsartq1]Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care.[/quote:2nsartq1] yeah i'm with "i dont care" i dont want to give anything up for Lopez LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:11 AM ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ metirish Jul 22 2009 10:19 AM I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:24 AM I wouldn't mind seeing what Rodriguez would bring. And also, as I brought up to LWFS last night, let's just pretend the Jays get a buttload of terrific prospects for Halladay. ... How crazy would it be then to offer Santana to the team that just missed out? smg58 Jul 22 2009 10:31 AM What if the team that just missed out was the Phillies? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:33 AM I'd listen. Wouldn't you? TransMonk Jul 22 2009 10:39 AM I'd listen, but I consider Santana one of the 4 or 5 core members of the team. And I don't think we're that far away from being able to compete during his prime years. I would want MUCH more than this 2nd place team would be offering for Halladay. duan Jul 22 2009 10:42 AM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that. seawolf17 Jul 22 2009 10:44 AM ="duan":15lo21u5]am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that.[/quote:15lo21u5] Yes, b/c he's in the first year of a multi-year deal. Why the eff would you replace Santana with Halladay? That's insane. metirish Jul 22 2009 10:46 AM Apparently the Phiilies would not include Drabek in a deal for Halladay . Riccardi saying that a deal is now not likely, much posturing going on one would think. Santana has a full no trade and Rodriguez has a limited one where he can block a trade to ten teams. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:48 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="metirish":1eyasbe2]I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights.[/quote:1eyasbe2] FIP (Fielding-Independent-Pitching statistic) is an attempt to provide an ERA-type metric (it's multiplied by a league-specific number to be scaled like ERA) that measures stuff (HR, BB, and K to be exact) that's under the direct control of pitchers... the idea being to remove the influence of the defense behind a pitcher on his stats. But, yeah, ultimately, that's peripheral. The main thrust is that even the greatest closer (Mariano last year, e.g.) is in real value less valuable than a pretty good position player virtually anywhere on the diamond... but the perception is that the closer is essential. That gap between perception and reality may be the key to extracting something worth something (Pence, e.g.) for a relatively low cost. Although the little kid in me would hate to see Santana go, I'd be intrigued by the idea of what we could get in return, baseball value for baseball value. That said, JCL, his contract severely reduces the market for him-- Halladay's relatively affordable yet, for a year-plus (plus playoffs?). Even then, Halladay's trade value is lower now than it was with, say, 2 1/2 years of that below-market contract If Toronto really is going to trade him, it's a shame for them they didn't seriously consider doing it last year. bmfc1 Jul 22 2009 10:49 AM Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran. G-Fafif Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="bmfc1":zqmjc72m]Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran.[/quote:zqmjc72m] LaRoche should retroactively express embarrassment that the Red Sox lost two of three to the Mets in May. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:55 AM At last, our long national 2-"A LaRoches"-on-the-same-team nightmare is over. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:03 AM The catch with K-Rod is that money is a big issue for most teams, and it's not clear that K-Rod was in anybody else's price range when it wouldn't have taken players to get him this past offseason. Now if somebody offered a similarly good but perhaps overpaid major leaguer you might have a match, but deals like that tend to happen in the offseason. There's also the glass-is-half-full way to look at his numbers: he's been very effective for us in a down year by his standards. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:25 AM The Pirates' booty in the LaRoche deal consists of Argenis Diaz (a younger version of our Argenis, with almost as good a bat) and Hunter Strickland (finesse righty showing excellent control for a 20-year-old at AA, although homers are a concern). MFS62 Jul 22 2009 12:46 PM And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later OlerudOwned Jul 22 2009 01:22 PM ="MFS62":qk01r3dh]And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later[/quote:qk01r3dh] They way they've been running things this season, I'm sure they'll take whatever they can get for him and laugh all the way to the bank. smg58 Jul 22 2009 05:02 PM In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt. In a bit of a surprise, Julio Lugo is a Cardinal; Chris Duncan heads to Pawtucket. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 06:04 PM ="smg58":1f7j0xfg]In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt.[/quote:1f7j0xfg] Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about the worst thing that happened to the Mets. Gwreck Jul 22 2009 11:53 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1wrfg6dm]Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about only the eighth or ninth worst thing that happened to the Mets.[/quote:1wrfg6dm] Fixed it for you. I agree that Cora's killing the offense (maybe slightly more than Murphy or Santos/Schneider) but Cora's poor performance also reflects on Jerry and Omar, I think. It's not like his hitting .240 is an aberration. OlerudOwned Jul 23 2009 12:56 AM Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 01:54 AM ="OlerudOwned":37869gxh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:37869gxh] You are correct...Unfortunately the Mets are under a do not resuscitate order Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 05:18 AM ="OlerudOwned":1wbzyqkh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:1wbzyqkh] He'd have been an upgrade over Cora a month ago assuming he could have been had for "nothing" if we paid his salary. But he's not really good. Theres no point in getting him now. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 05:27 AM ="OlerudOwned"]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Look, if Cora went and got the surgery he needed Omar would have to have done something and Wilson being a good fielder and presumably available would have been a reasonable solution. In the meantime we'd have enjoyed the benefits of a 700 OPS guy vs. a 500 OPS guy; and a good fielder vs. a shitty fielder. It's all vomit under the bridge by now, but just saying. metirish Jul 23 2009 08:22 AM Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:30 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 08:40 AM I agree that allowing Cora to cowboy up (and batting him leadoff) has been terribly wishful thinking. I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this. But I think the Mets braintrust needed to realize that wishing that Cora could somehow summon his best game through the injury was too much risk for too little reward. Maybe the strong May for the team triggered a lot of wishful thinking. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:34 AM ]I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this The Cora we've seen from 2005-2008 is almost as bad as this, unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:43 AM He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this. And better used sparingly --- which he had been before he got hurt --- even at his best. Always good to be patronized by you, thanks. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:57 AM that wasnt being patronizing. ]He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this from 2005 to 2008 he hit .244/.309/.339 (68 OPS+) this year its .242/.322/.295 (66+) you want to show me that he was particularly better defensively, go ahead, but contrary to your assertion he's the same hitter now that he's been the last 4 years. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 09:19 AM ]unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Yeah, talking to me like I'm a twit is pretty uneccessarily insulting. I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL (an activation that apparently shouldn't have happened). The numbers you quote are not part of my "assertion" but including the early part of the season when he played well. His numbers that I am "asserting" about are .212 // .274 //. 244 // .518. And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now, while making a crack about how I "somehow expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04" is doubly insulting. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 10:19 AM bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. the injury didn't cause him to suck. props to him for gutting it out anyway (but thumbs down to the mets for letting him.) its too late now anyway. unless the mets have a better option internally it is no longer worth obtaining one for just this year. ]I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL that wasnt made clear, but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out ]And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period rather than the last 4? he's been BAD since leaving LA, that was why i picked four years, that was when he left LA. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:28 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. And the Cards need middle-infield depth a bit more than they need yet another backup-for-Pujols/sorta-sluggy* backup-corner OF-type. *In 2006-07, that is. He's slugging .389 this year, and David Wright has as many home runs. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 10:32 AM This is too ridiculous ]bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. No, it's not, because you decided to make hay over ]the real Cora is not as bad as this ] the injury didn't cause him to suck. It appears to have made him play worse. ]that wasnt made clear It was clear enough. ]but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out I think it's clear that I'm with you there. Maybe not. ]and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period I didn't "decide" anything. You're the one who has been framing. My only timeframe was the period he has been hurt. Do I really have to spell everything out here? He's better as an uninjured backup shortstop than an injured fulltime one. I think that's a clear position and one I'm willing to defend. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 11:22 AM RRRRRRROW! smg58 Jul 23 2009 11:32 AM Wilson's a mediocre hitter but consistently one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. That alone would have made him an upgrade. But there's really no point now. Cora was signed to be a backup, and if he were playing only as much as the Mets originally expected him to play nobody would be complaining that harshly. Plus, he might have been given more time off to heal properly if the Mets weren't utterly desperate, and his numbers might actually look better. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:33 AM I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother? All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. ]I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Even when you do your hair like that? seawolf17 Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 01:05 PM ="seawolf17"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. The look on his face-- half "O" face, half confused St. Bernard-- helps. I hope he finds International League trophies just as fuckable-- by all reports, he's headed for RI. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:50 PM ="Frayed Knot":p8keo0dg] ="metirish":p8keo0dg]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?[/quote:p8keo0dg][/quote:p8keo0dg] All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. Would that be MFY AAA meathead Shelly Duncan or the pixie actress of stage and screen possibly? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 11:05 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:10 AM ="Nymr83"]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Wallace is the interesting name here. Considered to be among the best college bats to come along in many years, he was passed over by a number of teams (StL got him with the #13 pick) out of concern for where he'd play. In short, he's HUGE!, and huge as in wide not as in tall (BB-Ref lists him at 6' 1" - 245). In 'Moneyball' terms (since he's headed to Oakland) "he wears a big pair of underwear". The thought is that he'll be a DH sooner rather than later which isn't a great thing to be saying about a guy not yet 23 y/o. For now, they say his hands are at least decent and he's not as immobile as he looks. But, above all, he can rake. Already at AAA barely a year after signing, he blew through three different levels in between and will probably be in Oakland before the year is out. But, man, Oakland sounds like they're putting together slow-pitch softball teams again. Between Giambi, Jack Cust, Daric Barton (also snagged in a trade w/StL - for Mulder) and now Wallace they've got at least 4 'stocky' (I'm being nice here) 1B/DH types not seen since the days when the brothers Giambi were teamed with Matt Stairs & John Jaha. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:09 AM I saw some on him. I liked his waddle. Like a lefthanded Bob Horner. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 01:28 PM Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 01:48 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. Just goes to show you how much of a buyer's market this is; the sheer number of potential in-it-to-win-it teams the last two years has resuscitated the good-old-fashioned deadline deal, however briefly, even in the face of cost constraints and the rising value of FA-compensatory draft picks. (Although it kinda seemed from Day One that Beane had an eye toward Holliday's departure-- like they acquired him almost exclusively like a short-sell, either for the draft picks or the trade value-- didn't it?) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 01:24 AM Consider the source, but still-- Re-heeeeeally? ]The Rangers remain in the market for a bat, with the Indians' Ryan Garko and Mets' Gary Sheffield among their targets, even though Sheffield currently is on the disabled list. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9854856/BoSox-involved-in-Halladay-talks-and-more- seawolf17 Jul 27 2009 08:07 AM I wish he hadn't gotten hurt, because I think Sheffield -- and possibly Livan -- are the Mets two best trading chips right now. I read somewhere recently that Sheffield would revolt if he got dealt, though, so as always with him, it'd be buyer beware. Frayed Knot Jul 27 2009 08:42 AM Sheffield always threatens to revolt - but the thing is, this time he could easily make it stick. He was all but ready to retire anyway after being released by Detroit; he had $14mil coming to him and nothing monetarily to gain from playing unless he's really lying and is secretly dying to play next year too only for a fraction of this year's salary. But the Mets (he claims) were a good fit for him and so he took the gig when offered. But now if dealt somewhere he doesn't like (I don't think he has any No-Trade protection) he can simply walk-away rather than pull up stakes and move across the country for 9 weeks and not lost a thing except a possible shot at another ring.

[Frayed Knot]

]... and Tony Womack was one of the worst regulars in baseball

Except for that game-tying double in the 9th/game 7 which not only was the biggest hit in the inning that made the Yanx lose both the game and the series but also caused them to sign him to an over-priced 2-year contract a few seasons later (cuz he's clutch don't cha know).
Helluva guy if you ask me.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Yes, I love Tony Womack.

I shall never forget that game -- or signing up for a nyyfans.com account immediately afterward just to witness their fans suffering.

The account still works!

Let's see now if Stevie Jeets can find out which one is me!

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Three words: Price. To. Move.

http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/17/952227/schneider-on-fire-enjoy-it-while

[Vic Sage]

overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them:
- Schnieder
- Feliciano
- Castillo
- Sheffield

And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like:
- Cora
- Redding
- Hernandez
- Wagner
- Putz,
if we thru in a bag of balls.

I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team.

I hat baseball...

[Centerfield]

Too bad Delgado's not going to be ready by the deadline.

I wonder if he can be a PTBNL or if we can sneak him through waivers while he's in recovery.

[smg58]

Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care.

[nymr83]

="smg58":2nsartq1]Felipe Lopez just got traded to the Brewers. If we were a few games closer I'd be mad. Now I'm not sure I care.[/quote:2nsartq1] yeah i'm with "i dont care" i dont want to give anything up for Lopez

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:11 AM

="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/

metirish Jul 22 2009 10:19 AM

I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:24 AM

I wouldn't mind seeing what Rodriguez would bring. And also, as I brought up to LWFS last night, let's just pretend the Jays get a buttload of terrific prospects for Halladay. ... How crazy would it be then to offer Santana to the team that just missed out?

smg58 Jul 22 2009 10:31 AM

What if the team that just missed out was the Phillies?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 10:33 AM

I'd listen. Wouldn't you?

TransMonk Jul 22 2009 10:39 AM

I'd listen, but I consider Santana one of the 4 or 5 core members of the team. And I don't think we're that far away from being able to compete during his prime years. I would want MUCH more than this 2nd place team would be offering for Halladay.

duan Jul 22 2009 10:42 AM

="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"] ="Vic Sage"]overpriced Met veterans that are playing just well enough that contending teams might ship us a prospect for some of them: - Schnieder - Feliciano - Castillo - Sheffield And possibly even damaged or crappy goods like: - Cora - Redding - Hernandez - Wagner - Putz, if we thru in a bag of balls. I still don't think we need to break up the core (Reyes, Wrights, Beltran, Santana, F-Rod), but i can't take any more of this 09 team. I hat baseball... AA's Sam Page takes a look at some of the prospective bus-riders, including FA compensation, contract status, and possible returns: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/21/956102/its-time-to-sell-pt-1 http://www.amazinavenue.com/2009/7/22/957502/its-time-to-sell-pt-2 Skipping outside of ye olde box for a second... if the team is in selling mode this year, plans to contend next year, and has a big-but-limited-budget to fill holes, then... well... might a luxury closer be a bit of a luxury? Might the team be best served-- whether for prospect load or established big-league OF help-- to sell K-Rod? ]The perception of Frankie�s season is much sunnier than reality. His strikeouts and groundballs are down, and his walks are up. These peripherals are much more useful for evaluating his performance, rather than the stellar 1.90 ERA. This stat has more to do with his lucky .245 BABIP than anything, and his FIP of 3.76 and tERA of 3.47 are more precise measures... An above average position player will often be just as valuable as the most elite reliever. In his silly-good 2008 season, Mariano Rivera was a 3.1 WAR pitcher. This equals Placido Polanco�s value in the same year. http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2009/07/22/the-mets-should-consider-trading-frankie/ am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that.

seawolf17 Jul 22 2009 10:44 AM

="duan":15lo21u5]am I wrong in thinking that if he's traded he's the right to demand a trade in the offseason or something like that.[/quote:15lo21u5] Yes, b/c he's in the first year of a multi-year deal. Why the eff would you replace Santana with Halladay? That's insane. metirish Jul 22 2009 10:46 AM Apparently the Phiilies would not include Drabek in a deal for Halladay . Riccardi saying that a deal is now not likely, much posturing going on one would think. Santana has a full no trade and Rodriguez has a limited one where he can block a trade to ten teams. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:48 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="metirish":1eyasbe2]I'd keep Rodriguez , sometimes looking so closely at numbers drivers me nuts , especially when I need to google to see what a FIP is. Francisco is as advertised I think , gets the job done but walks the tightrope doing it most nights.[/quote:1eyasbe2] FIP (Fielding-Independent-Pitching statistic) is an attempt to provide an ERA-type metric (it's multiplied by a league-specific number to be scaled like ERA) that measures stuff (HR, BB, and K to be exact) that's under the direct control of pitchers... the idea being to remove the influence of the defense behind a pitcher on his stats. But, yeah, ultimately, that's peripheral. The main thrust is that even the greatest closer (Mariano last year, e.g.) is in real value less valuable than a pretty good position player virtually anywhere on the diamond... but the perception is that the closer is essential. That gap between perception and reality may be the key to extracting something worth something (Pence, e.g.) for a relatively low cost. Although the little kid in me would hate to see Santana go, I'd be intrigued by the idea of what we could get in return, baseball value for baseball value. That said, JCL, his contract severely reduces the market for him-- Halladay's relatively affordable yet, for a year-plus (plus playoffs?). Even then, Halladay's trade value is lower now than it was with, say, 2 1/2 years of that below-market contract If Toronto really is going to trade him, it's a shame for them they didn't seriously consider doing it last year. bmfc1 Jul 22 2009 10:49 AM Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran. G-Fafif Jul 22 2009 10:52 AM ="bmfc1":zqmjc72m]Adam LaRoche to the Red Sox. We're awaiting comment on the Pirates from Carlos Beltran.[/quote:zqmjc72m] LaRoche should retroactively express embarrassment that the Red Sox lost two of three to the Mets in May. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 22 2009 10:55 AM At last, our long national 2-"A LaRoches"-on-the-same-team nightmare is over. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:03 AM The catch with K-Rod is that money is a big issue for most teams, and it's not clear that K-Rod was in anybody else's price range when it wouldn't have taken players to get him this past offseason. Now if somebody offered a similarly good but perhaps overpaid major leaguer you might have a match, but deals like that tend to happen in the offseason. There's also the glass-is-half-full way to look at his numbers: he's been very effective for us in a down year by his standards. smg58 Jul 22 2009 11:25 AM The Pirates' booty in the LaRoche deal consists of Argenis Diaz (a younger version of our Argenis, with almost as good a bat) and Hunter Strickland (finesse righty showing excellent control for a 20-year-old at AA, although homers are a concern). MFS62 Jul 22 2009 12:46 PM And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later OlerudOwned Jul 22 2009 01:22 PM ="MFS62":qk01r3dh]And the Bucs had shortstop Wilson sitting out today. Is he on the block? Later[/quote:qk01r3dh] They way they've been running things this season, I'm sure they'll take whatever they can get for him and laugh all the way to the bank. smg58 Jul 22 2009 05:02 PM In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt. In a bit of a surprise, Julio Lugo is a Cardinal; Chris Duncan heads to Pawtucket. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 22 2009 06:04 PM ="smg58":1f7j0xfg]In hindsight, Jack Wilson would have been an excellent pickup for the Mets about six weeks ago. Especially if taking on his full contract would have meant no significant players getting dealt.[/quote:1f7j0xfg] Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about the worst thing that happened to the Mets. Gwreck Jul 22 2009 11:53 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":1wrfg6dm]Yup. Cora being an injured hero was about only the eighth or ninth worst thing that happened to the Mets.[/quote:1wrfg6dm] Fixed it for you. I agree that Cora's killing the offense (maybe slightly more than Murphy or Santos/Schneider) but Cora's poor performance also reflects on Jerry and Omar, I think. It's not like his hitting .240 is an aberration. OlerudOwned Jul 23 2009 12:56 AM Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 01:54 AM ="OlerudOwned":37869gxh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:37869gxh] You are correct...Unfortunately the Mets are under a do not resuscitate order Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 05:18 AM ="OlerudOwned":1wbzyqkh]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good.[/quote:1wbzyqkh] He'd have been an upgrade over Cora a month ago assuming he could have been had for "nothing" if we paid his salary. But he's not really good. Theres no point in getting him now. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 23 2009 05:27 AM ="OlerudOwned"]Jack Wilson wouldn't have helped much. He's not that good. Look, if Cora went and got the surgery he needed Omar would have to have done something and Wilson being a good fielder and presumably available would have been a reasonable solution. In the meantime we'd have enjoyed the benefits of a 700 OPS guy vs. a 500 OPS guy; and a good fielder vs. a shitty fielder. It's all vomit under the bridge by now, but just saying. metirish Jul 23 2009 08:22 AM Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:30 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 23 2009 08:40 AM I agree that allowing Cora to cowboy up (and batting him leadoff) has been terribly wishful thinking. I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this. But I think the Mets braintrust needed to realize that wishing that Cora could somehow summon his best game through the injury was too much risk for too little reward. Maybe the strong May for the team triggered a lot of wishful thinking. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:34 AM ]I think we all need to realize that the real Cora is not as bad as this The Cora we've seen from 2005-2008 is almost as bad as this, unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 08:43 AM He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this. And better used sparingly --- which he had been before he got hurt --- even at his best. Always good to be patronized by you, thanks. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 08:57 AM that wasnt being patronizing. ]He's a better offensive player and particularly a better defensive player than this from 2005 to 2008 he hit .244/.309/.339 (68 OPS+) this year its .242/.322/.295 (66+) you want to show me that he was particularly better defensively, go ahead, but contrary to your assertion he's the same hitter now that he's been the last 4 years. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 09:19 AM ]unless you expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04 Yeah, talking to me like I'm a twit is pretty uneccessarily insulting. I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL (an activation that apparently shouldn't have happened). The numbers you quote are not part of my "assertion" but including the early part of the season when he played well. His numbers that I am "asserting" about are .212 // .274 //. 244 // .518. And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now, while making a crack about how I "somehow expect him somehow to become the decent player he was for LA in 03-04" is doubly insulting. Nymr83 Jul 23 2009 10:19 AM bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. the injury didn't cause him to suck. props to him for gutting it out anyway (but thumbs down to the mets for letting him.) its too late now anyway. unless the mets have a better option internally it is no longer worth obtaining one for just this year. ]I'm referring to way he's performed since he got off the DL that wasnt made clear, but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out ]And the numbers that you are quoting about how he's been recently are weighed down by a season three years ago, while he's been better over the last two. To make a point of that season as speaking to who he is now and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period rather than the last 4? he's been BAD since leaving LA, that was why i picked four years, that was when he left LA. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 10:28 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?, either way I am surprised that the Sox got him for Lugo , or got anything at all. There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. And the Cards need middle-infield depth a bit more than they need yet another backup-for-Pujols/sorta-sluggy* backup-corner OF-type. *In 2006-07, that is. He's slugging .389 this year, and David Wright has as many home runs. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 10:32 AM This is too ridiculous ]bottom line: he hasn't been even decent since 2004. No, it's not, because you decided to make hay over ]the real Cora is not as bad as this ] the injury didn't cause him to suck. It appears to have made him play worse. ]that wasnt made clear It was clear enough. ]but he wasnt going to be an acceptable long-term replacement for Reyes to begin with, the only defense Omar has there is that he didn't know how long Reyes would be out I think it's clear that I'm with you there. Maybe not. ]and you get to decide that the last 2 years are the relevant time period I didn't "decide" anything. You're the one who has been framing. My only timeframe was the period he has been hurt. Do I really have to spell everything out here? He's better as an uninjured backup shortstop than an injured fulltime one. I think that's a clear position and one I'm willing to defend. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 11:22 AM RRRRRRROW! smg58 Jul 23 2009 11:32 AM Wilson's a mediocre hitter but consistently one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball. That alone would have made him an upgrade. But there's really no point now. Cora was signed to be a backup, and if he were playing only as much as the Mets originally expected him to play nobody would be complaining that harshly. Plus, he might have been given more time off to heal properly if the Mets weren't utterly desperate, and his numbers might actually look better. Edgy DC Jul 23 2009 11:33 AM I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Frayed Knot Jul 23 2009 11:43 AM ="metirish"]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother? All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. ]I'm really not quite that hot, but thank you. Even when you do your hair like that? seawolf17 Jul 23 2009 12:14 PM ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 23 2009 01:05 PM ="seawolf17"] ="LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr"]There's a bit of lunk to the galoot. I like how the watermark makes it look like it's "proof" that he's a galoot. The look on his face-- half "O" face, half confused St. Bernard-- helps. I hope he finds International League trophies just as fuckable-- by all reports, he's headed for RI. Ashie62 Jul 23 2009 08:50 PM ="Frayed Knot":p8keo0dg] ="metirish":p8keo0dg]Chris Duncan is a meat head , or is that his brother?[/quote:p8keo0dg][/quote:p8keo0dg] All Duncans are meat-heads. Including Sandy I'm told. Would that be MFY AAA meathead Shelly Duncan or the pixie actress of stage and screen possibly? Nymr83 Jul 24 2009 10:54 AM ]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 11:05 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 24 2009 11:10 AM ="Nymr83"]The Athletics and Cardinals have completed a trade that sends outfielder Matt Holliday to St. Louis in exchange for third baseman Brett Wallace, outfielder Shane Peterson and right-handed pitcher Clayton Mortensen, sources confirmed to ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney. Wallace is the interesting name here. Considered to be among the best college bats to come along in many years, he was passed over by a number of teams (StL got him with the #13 pick) out of concern for where he'd play. In short, he's HUGE!, and huge as in wide not as in tall (BB-Ref lists him at 6' 1" - 245). In 'Moneyball' terms (since he's headed to Oakland) "he wears a big pair of underwear". The thought is that he'll be a DH sooner rather than later which isn't a great thing to be saying about a guy not yet 23 y/o. For now, they say his hands are at least decent and he's not as immobile as he looks. But, above all, he can rake. Already at AAA barely a year after signing, he blew through three different levels in between and will probably be in Oakland before the year is out. But, man, Oakland sounds like they're putting together slow-pitch softball teams again. Between Giambi, Jack Cust, Daric Barton (also snagged in a trade w/StL - for Mulder) and now Wallace they've got at least 4 'stocky' (I'm being nice here) 1B/DH types not seen since the days when the brothers Giambi were teamed with Matt Stairs & John Jaha. Edgy DC Jul 24 2009 11:09 AM I saw some on him. I liked his waddle. Like a lefthanded Bob Horner. Frayed Knot Jul 24 2009 01:28 PM Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 24 2009 01:48 PM ="Frayed Knot"]Or maybe the lefty who ate Bob Horner. A quick peak at a Cardinal board showed an overall (though not universal) negative reaction - more based on thinking they gave up too much for a 2-month rental whose XBHs have trended from 84, 92, 65, 60 (proj) over the last 4 years than it was in thinking that either of the top 2 prospects were sure-fire studs. This Shane Peterson who went in the deal was their 2nd round pick from '08, the one right after they selected Wallace. There's also a story (Heyman) that LaRussa pushed for this in part because he didn't like and wasn't consulted on the Chris Duncan/Julio Lugo swap (and I don't guess his pitching coach was too high on it either). And, of course, the deal is made just in time so the Yanx don't have to see Holliday as Oakland is in NYC starting tonight. Just goes to show you how much of a buyer's market this is; the sheer number of potential in-it-to-win-it teams the last two years has resuscitated the good-old-fashioned deadline deal, however briefly, even in the face of cost constraints and the rising value of FA-compensatory draft picks. (Although it kinda seemed from Day One that Beane had an eye toward Holliday's departure-- like they acquired him almost exclusively like a short-sell, either for the draft picks or the trade value-- didn't it?) LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 27 2009 01:24 AM Consider the source, but still-- Re-heeeeeally? ]The Rangers remain in the market for a bat, with the Indians' Ryan Garko and Mets' Gary Sheffield among their targets, even though Sheffield currently is on the disabled list. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9854856/BoSox-involved-in-Halladay-talks-and-more- seawolf17 Jul 27 2009 08:07 AM I wish he hadn't gotten hurt, because I think Sheffield -- and possibly Livan -- are the Mets two best trading chips right now. I read somewhere recently that Sheffield would revolt if he got dealt, though, so as always with him, it'd be buyer beware. Frayed Knot Jul 27 2009 08:42 AM Sheffield always threatens to revolt - but the thing is, this time he could easily make it stick. He was all but ready to retire anyway after being released by Detroit; he had $14mil coming to him and nothing monetarily to gain from playing unless he's really lying and is secretly dying to play next year too only for a fraction of this year's salary. But the Mets (he claims) were a good fit for him and so he took the gig when offered. But now if dealt somewhere he doesn't like (I don't think he has any No-Trade protection) he can simply walk-away rather than pull up stakes and move across the country for 9 weeks and not lost a thing except a possible shot at another ring.