Wagner sent back to NY

[Centerfield]

Metsblog says his elbow (wtf?) isn't feeling good enough to pitch back to back days. Sent back to NY to be re-evaluated.

Anyone watching/listening hear any more details?

[seawolf17]

That's all they said on the broadcast -- that and that he "felt about 80%," whatever that means.

[metirish]

Oliver Perez told him to rub some dirt on it......

[Fman99]

Well, fuck.

[metirish]

From Lennon's blog , nothing good.

] Here is the updated medical information on Billy Wagner� This doesn't sound like great news. The Mets just released this brief statement on Wagner's examination this morning: Billy Wagner was re-evaluated today at New York�s Hospital for Special Surgery. He continues to have swelling and pain in his elbow. He will need additional rest before he can resume throwing. We'll see what Wagner has to say about this latest development when the clubhouse opens this afternoon. Looks like the Mets are going to need a contingency plan for the immediate future.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Gotta like how "forearm pain" is finally revealed to be "elbow pain."

[metirish]

Seriously, I would not be surprised to hear " season ending surgery" in the next few days.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Guest

[soupcan]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Gotta like how "forearm pain" is finally revealed to be "elbow pain."

They had said that it started as 'forearm pain' and eventually moved to the elbow.

Truthfully, I'm less worried about replacing Billy in the 9th as I am about the rest of the 'Pen.

[batmagadanleadoff]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Gotta like how "forearm pain" is finally revealed to be "elbow pain."

If it's Wagner, it was probably brain pain all along. Isn't the elbow bone connected to the brain bone?

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Everything on Wagner is connected to the jawbone, I think.

While its no great confession to consider us better with Wagner than without, I think that in a matter of taste I prefer a Wagner-free squad to one that's only trying to get by without him temporarily.

Same thing as Alou and Church too. It feels better to perform knowing they're not around than with their shadows hovering from above.

[TransMonk]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Everything on Wagner is connected to the jawbone, I think.

Bullet of cool!

[Guest AG/DC]

Someday I'm going to have to think through this players-on-rehab-are-worse-than-no-players-at-all business. I don't quite get it.

[stevejrogers]

AG/DC wrote: Someday I'm going to have to think through this players-on-rehab-are-worse-than-no-players-at-all business. I don't quite get it.

No crutch. TPTB can't rely on the "Just wait until he comes back, things will be better" line as the ship takes in water around them.

Forces their hand to make a move, one way or another.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Sorta, yeah.

[Guest Kong76]

post moved to correct thread

[batmagadanleadoff]

During a pre-game press conference today, Wagner said that he wasn't necessarily any better than any of the other Met relievers, but that he has this "Closer" title because he pitches the 9th inning, perhaps implying that the Closer title gives him an extra and undeserved aura of superiority.

Notwithstanding Wagner's obvious modesty here (he really is better than the other Met relievers, even if he says otherwise -- Wagner jawbones even when says things against his own interest), I wonder if there wasn't some subconscious slip that pitching the ninth inning is no different than pitching any other inning. I suspect that pitchers privately know this to be the truth, but claim otherwise out of self-interest because of the disproportionate amount of money they earn for simply racking up Saves. To me, this closer business is so overblown.

[Guest AG/DC]

But it is different.

Not always, but ninth innngs with small leads tend to be different from sixth innings with large defecits.

On edit: doesn't mean I don't agree that closers are overblown. Actually, I believe saves are overblown.

Edited August 19, 2008 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: But it is different.

Why? Is the centerfielder required to defend the ninth inning with his shoelaces tied together?

[Guest AG/DC]

Don't be a jerk.

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: But it is different. Not always, but ninth innngs with small leads tend to be different from sixth innings with large defecits.

And sixth innings with small leads differ from ninth innings with large leads. And so ......?

[Guest AG/DC]

Closers don't tend to enter ninth innings with large leads. Can you please dial down the sarcasm?

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: But it is different. Not always, but ninth innngs with small leads tend to be different from sixth innings with large defecits. On edit: doesn't mean I don't agree that closers are overblown. Actually, I believe saves are overblown.

Yous post keeps on changing on me. I agree with your on-edit point. There's nothing necessarily wrong with using your best reliever in the ninth inning. But when the starting pitcher is removed after the fifth or sixth inning, so that the manager absolutely knows that his bullpen will need to pitch three or four innnings, it makes little sense to decide three or four innings in advance, that the most effective reliever will only pitch the ninth, without any consideration for the developing game situation.

[batmagadanleadoff]

="AG/DC"]Closers don't tend to enter ninth innings with large leads. Can you please dial down the sarcasm?

But three run leads going into the ninth are large. There's absolutely no reason why the team's "Closer" gets to notch this particular one-inning save more than any other pitcher on the team.

So how come you don't like my shoelace post?

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Playing to the point we all seem to be making: Atlanta's best reliever is Mike Gonzalez. He's lefthanded. But with the game on the line, they go to the "specialist" Ohman against Delgado to presumably save Gonzalez for the 9th inning. Yeah, whoops.

[batmagadanleadoff]

AG/DC wrote: But it is different. Not always, but ninth innngs with small leads tend to be different from sixth innings with large defecits.

="batmagadanleadoff"]And sixth innings with small leads differ from ninth innings with large leads. And so ......?

Why would it be harder to retire batters in one inning as opposed to another based upon the existing run differential?

[batmagadanleadoff]

OlerudOwned wrote: Playing to the point we all seem to be making: Atlanta's best reliever is Mike Gonzalez. He's lefthanded. But with the game on the line, they go to the "specialist" Ohman against Delgado to presumably save Gonzalez for the 9th inning. Yeah, whoops.

Exactly. That 8th inning was where the game was on the line, where the most damage could've been done. And Delgado was 3 for 9 against Ohman going into that last at bat.

Strange game from Cox, who is no slouch. He also sac bunted in the first inning. Unless that batter was going solo.

[Guest AG/DC]

Well, I agree there, at least in principle.

Best pitchers should be used in the game situation where they are most useful. Although, in particular, I'm not that impressed with Gonzalez as anybody's idea of a best pitcher, and I understand looking for the best matchups.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

="batmagadanleadoff"] ="AG/DC"]But it is different. Not always, but ninth innngs with small leads tend to be different from sixth innings with large defecits. ="batmagadanleadoff"]And sixth innings with small leads differ from ninth innings with large leads. And so ......? Why would it be harder to retire batters in one inning as opposed to another based upon the existing run differential?

Psychologically, I think it is something of a different animal to a lot of players. Even if it doesn't ring true with the numbers, how many players out there actually give a damn about run expectancy and the such? Don't get me wrong, I don't think it (the inning, that is) should matter, but when you have a bunch of guys who've been trained their whole lives to play baseball, and when that training includes the completely illogical parts of baseball "wisdom," it's bound to ingrain itself within the players.

Who knows, hopefully as advanced analysis strengthens it's foothold, that sort of thinking will dissipate over time.

[Guest AG/DC]

Advance analysis has re-nforced and will reinforce the idea that it's harder to pitch as the inning gets later and the run differential gets narrower.

Aaron Heilman faced relief pitcher Jeff Bennett today. Who was the last pitcher Billy Wagner ever faced.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

="AG/DC"]Advance analysis has re-nforced and will reinforce the idea that it's harder to pitch as the inning gets later and the run differential gets narrower. Aaron Heilman faced relief pitcher Jeff Bennett today. Who was the last pitcher Billy Wagner ever faced.

Was that aspect ever up for debate here? I think we might all be arguing slightly different things here.

Certainly a 1-run game in the 9th is going to be tougher than a 1-run game in the 8th, but you're not getting the former if you can't make it through the latter.