Willie on Willie; Adam on Willie

[Mex17]

If we are very, very lucky than Randolph is as inept, clueless, delusional, paranoid, arrogant, "entitled", not nearly as "classy" in real life as the "Pride and Pinstripes" folks would have us believe, and difficult to work with as his worst moments would seem to indicate that he is. If it is all true than I will not feel as bad over the perceived organizational problems (Bernazard, Jeff Wilpon, the indecision and eventual ruthlessness over how this was handled.) If Willie was really that bad than the perceived badness of what remains diminishes.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

G-Fafif wrote: The real victim in the Willie story in the News is Wayne Coffey, its author and the as-told-to writer on the planned autobiography of the former Mets manager. Think maybe the market for that has sagged?

I think the martyrdom of Willie is actually a good thing for Coffey -- and better for Willie than it might have been were he gently let off with dignity at a reasonable hour in New York but on a losing streak.

Think of the selling angle:

WILLIE
My Repeatedly Unsuccessful Attempts to Get to the World Series

vs.

WILLIE
My Inspiring Fight Against Injustice

[Theoldmole]

A farm system's raw material is 18-21-year-old kids, which means it replenishes its resources pretty completely every three years. If you trade away four or five prospects, you're not bankrupting the farm system for a generation.

[G-Fafif]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I think the martyrdom of Willie is actually a good thing for Coffey -- and better for Willie than it might have been were he gently let off with dignity at a reasonable hour in New York but on a losing streak. Think of the selling angle: WILLIE My Repeatedly Unsuccessful Attempts to Get to the World Series vs. WILLIE My Inspiring Fight Against Injustice

If the book comes out in ten minutes. Otherwise, it will be:

WILLIE
Remember That Thing That Was a Big Deal?

[metirish]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: By the way, can anyone find the thread where the CPF reacted to Willie's Hiring? It would be in Nov. 04 -- prior to the meltdown. I visted the old EZboard place but it's a wreck -- they are finally replacing the EZB with a new software and name and look.

I can't even find the old CPF at that YuKu place, I can find my old profile there but the CPF is not listed among my communities.

I did find this fella there though , replete with yankee sig.

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?page=4&t=94648

[G-Fafif]

According to the Daily News, I am one of the fans who says Willie Randolph's a winner:

]"As fans we see guys in uniform as interchangeable pieces," said Greg Prince, 45, of Long Island. "But after a guy pours his heart like that, you see the human side of it. It sounds like there was a lot of miscommunication between him and the management. It's disappointing the way they handled it."

While Ms. Angelova quoted me accurately -- I was wandering out of the Clubhouse Store on 42nd St. and said, yes, I had read Willie's article in the News yesterday and yes, you can ask me about it -- I'd hardly say I was adding to a "host of hoorays" or seeing "poetic justice in his story".

On the other hand, my name was spelled right.

[Theoldmole]

No relation to Freddie, then?

[Guest AG/DC]

It wasn't that long ago in New York that being spotted "wandering out of the Clubhouse Store on 42nd St." was a pretty sleazy thing.

[G-Fafif]

AG/DC wrote: It wasn't that long ago in New York that being spotted "wandering out of the Clubhouse Store on 42nd St." was a pretty sleazy thing.

At the prices they charge, I felt a little dirty (though, in the parlance of Howie Rose, I didn't have the glue to buy anything in there).

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

="G-Fafif"]According to the Daily News, I am one of the fans who says Willie Randolph's a winner: ]"As fans we see guys in uniform as interchangeable pieces," said Greg Prince, 45, of Long Island. "But after a guy pours his heart like that, you see the human side of it. It sounds like there was a lot of miscommunication between him and the management. It's disappointing the way they handled it." While Ms. Angelova quoted me accurately -- I was wandering out of the Clubhouse Store on 42nd St. and said, yes, I had read Willie's article in the News yesterday and yes, you can ask me about it -- I'd hardly say I was adding to a "host of hoorays" or seeing "poetic justice in his story". On the other hand, my name was spelled right.

I like the "of Long Island" part. Like it's a little town. He should have said "Greg Prince, 45, of (insert name of town on Long Island.)

People who read the News are generally smart enough to recognize the names of places like Massapequa, Baldwin, Huntington, Freeport and so on.

[G-Fafif]

To be fair, the reporter asked (since we were on 42nd and 5th) if I was from Manhattan. "Long Island," I blurted out, making it harder for Willie to find me if he wants to come over and commiserate.

Long Island: my little town.

[Frayed Knot]

]People who read the News are generally smart enough to recognize the names of places like Massapequa, Baldwin, Huntington, Freeport and so on.

But not always smart enough to spell them.




Meanwhile, back to the original topic;
Newsda'ys John Jeansonne takes a few swipes at the media blowing a collective circuit over L'affaire de Wille.

There certainly was no shortage of numbskullian outrage from many among the same chattering classes who for weeks had been calling for Randolph's dismissal. That Mets general manager Omar Minaya proved to be anything but nimble in sending Randolph packing -- first literally, to the West Coast, then figuratively -- was obvious enough. But the act of firing a boss for his employees' underperformance hardly reached the level of "spinelessness" and "bullying" widely ascribed to it.

The deed was not done via e-mail after 3 a.m., as many reports had it. (Minaya delivered the blow face-to-face when the Anaheim clocks had not yet struck midnight; it's just that reporters were informed of the move electronically and referenced Eastern time.)

The article then goes on to consult various ethicists and business leaders who see nothing unusual or cruel about the firing.

[Guest AG/DC]

Wow. Facts. Who'da thunk?

[stevejrogers]

Bill Madden still keeping Willie's flame burning by saying the Wilpons wanted Randolph out before even managing a game!

No mention of Randolph's first interview back during the Valentine replacement search days. Of course, because that little detail upsets the whole "Wilpons never wanted this guy to begin with" tact if Randolph was brought in when Phillips was still the GM.

[batmagadanleadoff]

][willie_randolph_had_no_chance_with_mets_-2.html-Bill Madden still keeping Willie's flame burning by saying the Wilpons wanted Randolph out before even managing a game!

Fanning the Firing Fires

I'm so sick of this. Does the media think that Randolph is forever entitled to be the Mets manager? Managerial stints end bad. All the time and for everyone. There are no exceptions. Whether you're Davey Johnson or Dallas Green. That's the nature of baseball. Once the Mets shed their lovable loser image, the pressure was on every single Met manager to win. Only Gil Hodges managed to escape an ugly ending. (Managed! - Get it?) And he'd give his life to have his stint end the way Randolph's did. Of course this presents a conundrum insofar as Gil lost the life he had to make that trade. And if he did have the life to trade, he wouldn'ta had it after the trade. He'd be a lifeless soul, disembodied from his team.

[Gwreck]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Managerial stints end bad. All the time and for everyone.

Tom Kelly of the Twins?

[stevejrogers]

Gwreck wrote: ="batmagadanleadoff"]Managerial stints end bad. All the time and for everyone. Tom Kelly of the Twins?

They were about to be contracted!

[batmagadanleadoff]

="Gwreck"] ="batmagadanleadoff"]Managerial stints end bad. All the time and for everyone. Tom Kelly of the Twins?

No. Not Tom Kelly. Not when you leave on your own terms while on top, more or less. I should've wrote that all firings end up bad. And even then there are exceptions to every "all", and you'll probably go and find it.

Still, this dismissal is all overblown and some sour grapes by Randolph. Like Irish said a few days ago, I wish Willie would just go away already.

[metirish]

A different take on the firing here , it was Biblical in a way.

] Willie firing was standard procedure John Jeansonne | HOT TOPIC 7:43 PM EDT, June 21, 2008 Mets management might want to think of its critics, who all week hurled charges of cowardice and villainy in the Willie Randolph affair, the way playwright Eugene O'Neill did: "I love every bone in their heads." There certainly was no shortage of numbskullian outrage from many among the same chattering classes who for weeks had been calling for Randolph's dismissal. That Mets general manager Omar Minaya proved to be anything but nimble in sending Ran.dolph packing -- first literally, to the West Coast, then figuratively -- was obvious enough. But the act of firing a boss for his employees' underperformance hardly reached the level of "spinelessness" and "bullying" widely ascribed to it. The deed was not done via e-mail after 3 a.m., as many reports had it. (Minaya delivered the blow face-to-face when the Anaheim clocks had not yet struck midnight; it's just that reporters were informed of the move electronically and referenced Eastern time.) "I don't think it was cowardly," said Randy Cohen, who considers questions of morality and principle for National Public Radio and the New York Times Magazine as "The Ethicist." In what sense? "No one woke him up in the middle of the night. There was no slapping. If it was less than ideal, it didn't seem brutal. [The Mets] seem to have made a professional judgment. It was not as smooth and elegant as it might have been, but they didn't fail by much. Being imperfect is not being unethical." To Duke University cultural anthropologist Orin Starn, a keen observer of the sports universe, Randolph's termination of employment not only was very 21st-century American, it was downright Biblical. "It's part of mainline anthropology: the idea of the scapegoat," Starn said. "The word comes from the ancient Israelis, when the priest would lay hands on a goat and put all pains and troubles and sickness of the time into the goat, who'd then be sent into the wilderness to be eaten by lions." Straight from Leviticus and with roots in Yom Kippur ceremonies. "By making a sacrificial victim, by expelling somebody from the Garden of Eden, expelling him from his job, you make everything right again, make possible the idea of a new order," Starn said. With the team sandbagging against the rising floods of mediocrity, in the face of playoff expectations, sending Randolph into the baseball wilderness logically "fits with the America of the instant fix and CEO performance thing," Starn said. "If you don't get the job done, you're out. Those old guarantees of lifetime employment and a pension don't apply to anybody anymore." Where so much of the commentary on Randolph's treatment seemed to be at cross purposes was in the cries of injustice following so closely on the heels of salivating talk radio and tabloid death watches. It was Will Leitch, the snarkily observant Deadspin.com blogger, who wrote in New York magazine earlier this month that "for sports fans, collapses are much more fun than victories ... There's something delightfully retro and charming about the hunt for Randolph's hide." Leitch reasoned that "our teams are extensions of ourselves and, when they fail, we fail ... To hate your coach is to love your team." Ethicist Cohen saw "no blood on anybody's hands" in that scenario because "speculation about how to correct the team" came with Randolph's public job description. "Within the bounds of ordinary courtesy, emotional well-being is not the concern of the fans," Cohen said. "It's the concern of his family and his friends and his therapist." As a figure in the professional entertainment business, Randolph reasonably is "remote," on the human level, from those judging his performance. "It's certainly true," Cohen said, "that when you go to the movies, villains are more interesting than heroes, and tragedies are much more engaging than successes. What's to say about success? Nice going? So failure is more interesting in every way, because the outcome is still in doubt: How will we reverse this? We're headed for the rocks, and people's characters will reveal themselves." That Randolph suddenly became a sympathetic character no doubt was the result of Minaya's Kabuki theater, the bizarre path taken to confronting Randolph while Mets ownership stayed out of sight. Starn submitted that there might be "some racial angst, this unspoken subtext that this is an African-American guy who was known as a good guy, played by the rules, loved baseball and now was getting the shaft." Except, of course, Minaya is a minority himself, a man of color with Latino roots, and Randolph's replacement, Jerry Manuel, also is black. Which may leave us with very little to be critical about. "If everything were always going well," Leitch added via e-mail to Newsday, "fans would be bored and talk radio would be silent. Unless, of course, we're Boston. Which, fortunately, we're not."

I never read or heard of this John Jeansonne before.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/ny-sphot0622,0,5404606.column

[Frayed Knot]

]I never read or heard of this John Jeansonne before

Well you would have had you read my link above.

Johnsonne's been there for years doing mostly opinion and topical columns not limited to any one sport. In fact he'll usually be the one who tackles the other "non-major" sports for Newsday: Tour de France, World Cup soccer, track & other olympic sports, etc.




On Madden's column;
- it very well may be that there were anti-Willie forces hiding behind every potted plant at Shea. But it's also come to the point where I'm no longer just going to take his word for it as there have been enough instances in the last few years where he's gotten too many facts wrong for me to simply swallow this story whole.
And it's not specifically his long ties to the Yanx that I think is coloring his slant in this case. But it does seem to me that he's at a stage where he simply takes one source's word on something and prints that as the way things are - either because he doesn't have the energy, skepticism and hunger of a younger journalist to check things out further, or he simply figures that 'I'm Bill Madden' and assumes that his sources are all on the level with him.

Either way, his piece comes off like it was fed by a source or sources with at least as big an agenda as that of the anti-Willie cabal he purports to be outing.

[metirish]

Funny , in my mind I thought I saw his name somewhere , and I did actually read your post. I'm losing it.

[Guest AG/DC]

The idea that the Wilpons let a guy they wanted nothing to do with manage their team for three and half seasons --- through the launching of a new network and toward the introduction of a new stadium --- is kind of hard to support isn't it?

They're not crazy.

[stevejrogers]

Yeah, I'm amazed at the fact that Willie being brought in during the Valentine replacement interviews wasn't brought up as a counter argument.

IIRC wasn't Randolph the frontrunner before Art Howe famously "lit up the room"? If that was the case, then Willie's hiring was a hiring that was deferred for 2 seasons.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I don't recall him being a front-runner after the 2002 season, but I may just be forgetting. I don't recall much about that search that ended with Art Howe.

[MFS62]

="Frayed Knot"]The article then goes on to consult various ... and business leaders who see nothing unusual or cruel about the firing.

I can believe that.
I was a Michael Milkin poster boy of the 80's, worked for several companies and business units that got consolidated/ merged/ chopped up/ sold off.

At one, the Personnel Department sent out an email on a Friday afternoon stating that "your job has been transferred to Portland Oregon (from Connecticut) as of Monday morning". It went on to say that "If you do not report to work on Monday, your absence will be considered a resignation".

I'm not kidding. That happened.

LAter

[duan]

i really don't buy into the whole "the entire organisation goes round stabbing each other in the back all the time" kinda conspiracy theory.

What's clear is, the collapse that happened last September reflected extremely badly on the manager. Everyone started to form views on why it happened, those views may/may not have included it being the managers fault.
The team then didn't start as well as it might have and the media hysteria caused the organisation to start to re-evaluate the how long do we give ..... naturally people had different opinions.
They could have used NOT talking to all and sundry about it, but people have leaky lips when they get friends in the media.

[Benjamin Grimm]

From David Letterman's monologue:

] "The hookers in Times Square are offering a Willie Randolph special. For 50 bucks, they'll screw you in the middle of the night when nobody's looking."

[bmfc1]

Another Letterman monologue joke from last week (the quote is as accurate as I remember; I don't have a transcript):

"Beautiful day in New York. It was so nice that the Mets were firing managers in the daylight."