Mex17

Even for an organization that has come to be known for inexplicable, mind numbing, incompetency, this one takes the cake. They could have hired literally anyone else, all of whom had actual managerial experience on some level or another. Instead, they went with the entitled superstar with no managing or official coaching experience anywhere because he just felt like trying it out (but only on the Major League level and only in the city that he likes to spend time in because, hey, he's Carlos Beltran). And now look how it blew up in their faces. They get caught up in one of the Top Three scandals ever to engulf the game of baseball (Black Sox and steroids being the other two), and they did not even participate or benefit from it.

I am already hearing talk that Boston is going to take a look at Meulens. So the Mets, who did not directly participate in or benefit from either of the two scandals, could be the team that is without a manager AND a bench coach with a month to go before Spring Training.

Frayed Knot wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: I'm wondering if the Mets -- or anyone for that matter seeing as how there are suddenly now THREE teams in search of managers despite it being mid-January -- go with a 'safe' choice like Showalter even though I can't remember if anyone even gave him a sniff during managerial sweepstakes time back in October/November. Cuz when your first choice turns out to be crooked, the way to go just might be to hire the guy who gets upset when players wear their hats crooked. And, as if on cue, Houston is talking to Showalter That's the best fit for him I think. Houston is a total clean slate being that they are without a GM too, and we know that Showalter wants total authority. They are also ground zero for the entire thing as well, so they need the radical culture change the most.

Edgy MD wrote: I'm not outright predicting, but don't be shocked if John Franco is asked to ride in on a white horse. David Wright would be far more likely on the 'ex player' list, especially considering the "they are already paying him" angle Heaven help us! But speaking of that, if they want someone squeaky clean, a great motivator, and already on the payroll, how about Tim Teb .... I can't finish that. Later At least Tebow gets his number back.

Edgy MD wrote: Is there any reason to be so disappointed with Seth Lugo that you want to announce he's lost his job on paper in November. You have to count on your closer to be able to pitch on consecutive days. It's just that simple.

I'm so on the other side of this. I'm fine with bringing him ack to the team, but you cannot hand him the closer job by default again. I'm thinking that they have to bring Will Smith or Betances in. At the very least Addison Reed on a reclamation project to provide some options/competition.

I heard Francesa bloviating today about Diaz. He was insisting that, if the Mets are to bring Diaz back that Diaz is going to be the closer. Has Van Wagenen actually stated this? I know that they are more than likely going to bring Diaz back to the team, but has Brodie specifically stated unequivocally that Diaz will be the closer? I don't think that he has said that. Has he?

https://nypost.com/2019/11/03/mets-risky-media-obsession-put-carlos-beltran-over-the-top/https://nypost.com/2019/11/03/mets-risky-media-obsession-put-carlos-beltran-over-the-top/ Sounds to me that the tail was wagging the dog in this process. Not good. Why don't you just hire the most qualified person that you can get and all this media stuff will just take care of itself when success emanates from experienced hands guiding good process? Are we instead going to be limited only to middling candidates and total shots in the dark who just happened to have passed through this town while potentially great hires are passed over just because they have done their best work in the Midwest?

Edgy MD wrote: Having won four world championships in the last 15 years, one as recently as a year ago, I'm not sure what Boston's motivation would be to unload their MVP candidates. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/the-red-sox-will-reportedly-listen-to-trade-offers-for-mookie-betts-this-offseason-and-heres-why-they-may-deal-him/https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/the-red-sox-will-reportedly-listen-to-trade-offers-for-mookie-betts-this-offseason-and-heres-why-they-may-deal-him/ It's in the ether, whether you would choose to give credence to the speculation or not.

I guess now that the manager thing is done we can get into real Hot Stove talk. . . I know that Francesa is not the most popular guy around here, but he did float something interesting a few months back: Syndergaard, Diaz, and Dom Smith to Boston for Betts. The theory is that, a) Boston might not want to pay Betts, the Mets might not want to pay Syndergaard, c) Diaz needs a change of scenery, and d) Smith is buried on this roster. Could it happen? Should it happen? Will it happen? Do you want another, different, superior Mookie to supplant our own, home grown, Buckner beating, beloved Mookie in the hierarchy of Mookies who were Mets?

Edgy MD wrote: And Callaway, having been hired out of another big league dugout, doesn't align with your Peter Principle scenario particularly well at all. I specifically said "bench coach". Pitching coaches are a different animal. I'm totally revealing my Sci-fi geekdom today, but, as another analogy to go with the Star Trek one that I had earlier, allow me to reference the 2000's version of Battlestar Galactica. In one episode, one of the Battlestars (the one that wasn't Galactica) was at one point down so many senior bridge officers as a result of attrition that the had to turn command to the Chief Engineer who technically held the rank of Commander. In the episode, things got so bad in the heat of battle with the Cylons that Galactica had to transfer over one of their Junior officers who had actual CIC experience to bail the other guy out. The guy had skill sets, just not the right skill sets. His were more micro focused on engineering. That's how I viewed Callaway before and after his tenure. He's a pitching coach. . .important but a totally different thing than guys like Bogar, Perez, or Shelton.

If this were Star Trek, it would be like giving Wesley Crusher command of the Enterprise after Picard was apprehended by the Borg while condescendingly giving Riker a nice pat on the head.

=MFS62 post_id=25818 time=1572692044 user_id=60] And that is why he wants a bench coach who has the complimentary competencies. Looking for a symbiotic relationship. Later

This sort of thing is an insult to guys like that. This sort of thinking is a bigger reason why we can't have good things. See "The Peter Principle." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principlehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle The Peter Principle validates my viewpoint of this situation. "The Peter principle states that a person who is competent at their job will earn promotion to a more senior position which requires different skills." ". . . skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another." Beltran has superior core competencies as a five-tool player who can play centerfield and anchor a lineup. Those competencies do not necessarily translate to competencies as a manager. Conversely, "minor league manager" and "major league bench coach" require competencies that align much more succinctly to the competencies that are required to be a major league manager. Magic Johnson failed both as Lakers head coach and team president. Pat Riley was a middling at best NBA player. Jim Zorn failed as an NFL head coach. Did Parcells and Belichick even have NFL playing careers? Jeter, to my viewpoint, appears to be failing as Marlins grand poobah. What kind of player was Frank Cashen? Brian Cashman? Branch Rickey?

boo hoo. I don't need any of this gate-keeping. There's no "right way" to become a manager. Great. Let's see what happens when Beltran completely clusterfucks an in-game situation that a seasoned guy has seen 100 times over or gets steamrolled over by the media in a presser. For Pete's sake, we just got done with a pitching coach (not your traditional path either) who batted out of order in a MLB game!!!!

I. HATE. THIS. I am not naïve enough to not realize that this is a trend going on in MLB, but I don't agree with the trend. Whatever happened to working your way up the chain? Slowly, diligently, and methodically, picking up wisdom and hard earned lessons as you go? Bogar is a 3x minor league manager of the year with extensive experience in the majors as a coach. Shelton has a winning record as a minor league manager and tons of coaching experience in The Show. Perez has managed in the Puerto Rican Winter Leagues and the WBC. The Braves and the Cardinals both made the playoffs this year with guys who paid their dues in their respective systems. This sort of thing is an insult to guys like that.

Unless this ESPN thing screws him, I expect Perez to edge out Bogar because of the communication/media skills.

This is it. The Girardi dream is over. That does not mean that we cannot land a good choice.

If it's coming down to Perez and Bogar I guess that I'll be OK with it.

OMG, I can see the Mendoza thing happening!!

I'm fearful at this point that Girardi is headed to Philly. Still very much opposed to the prospect of making Beltran manager.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Off the top of my head... Stengel, Berra, Green... I think that's it, right? (Not counting Torre, who managed the Mets before going to the Yankees.) Willie.

Lefty Specialist wrote: No Joe Espada? I'm basing the choices off of actual reports of who they are considering. No mentions yet of Espada beyond fan speculation, but maybe that is because the Astros are still playing?

Girardi is a cut above. Perez/Bell/Shelton/Bogar are all completely acceptable. Beltran is completely unacceptable. Look, I'm going to need the transcript of the interview you've used to conclusively make this determination. "Hi Brodie and Jeff I was a really good player and now I want to be manager but not just manager of anybody but manager of the Mets who are in New York and have a lot of extra distractions and media coverage that I would have to deal with and not only have I never been a manager anywhere not even in the minor leagues but I have not even been a coach anywhere on any level whatsoever and even though all of these other people are way way way more qualified than me I was a good player and I want to be manager so I am entitled to be manager because I was a good player so make me manager!!!!!!!"

Girardi is a cut above. Perez/Bell/Shelton/Bogar are all completely acceptable. Beltran is completely unacceptable. Look, I'm going to need the transcript of the interview you've used to conclusively make this determination. "Hi Brodie and Jeff I was a really good player and now I want to be manager but not just manager of anybody but manager of the Mets who are in New York and have a lot of extra distractions and media coverage that I would have to deal with and not only have I never been a manager anywhere not even in the minor leagues but I have not even been a coach anywhere on any level whatsoever and even though all of these other people are way way way more qualified than me I was a good player and I want to be manager so I am entitled to be manager because I was a good player so make me manager!!!!!!!"