Mets Fire Randolph, Peterson and Nieto.

[Frayed Knot]

The timing and hadling of this thing also serves to make Willie a bit of a martyr - even in the eyes of some of those who long wanted him gone.

[stevejrogers]

It also doesn't help the Mets image in the mind of the mass populace when Steve Phillips and Bill Madden are two of ESPN Radio's go-to guys on Mike & Mike this morning.

[duan]

because they were scared that if they waited any longer the team would do enough (hell it nearly had, winning 3/4) to make firing Willie much harder (especially if they can take 3/4 from the yankees) but that the malaise that they feel currently ills doesn't lift and the team muddles through to an 81-81 season. The have to fire him then anyway.

This team has a 19.11176 % chance of reaching the post-season according to baseballprospectus' odds report, 28% if you buy into the Pecota adjusted version.

They're thinking those odds are going to be improved without willie/ were being harmed with him.

[metirish]

From Lennon's blog.

] Omar Minaya, banana in hand and clad in workout gear, just came out of the lobby elevator and headed to the gym. He spoke briefly and said he couldn't help the timing of the move. Minaya said he told Willie Randolph after Sunday's doubleheader that he was going to make a decision on Monday and that's what he did. Flew out here and fired him.

Says there is a full blown media circus in the hotel lobby with satellite trucks rolling up , camera's aimed at the elevators.

[Willets Point]

="Vince Coleman Firecracker":esuynm8z] ="Willets Point":esuynm8z]Fire Omar next. Or put some fire under his feet. Either way.[/quote:esuynm8z] I don't want fire under his feet. That's a recipe for some terrible win now/screw tomorrow trading. Assure him he's part of the long term plans of the franchise (give the guy an extension or name part of Citi Field after him or something), and then stab him right in the back after the season ends. Or fire him now and get someone who won't trade Niese and Martinez for Randy Wolf or Jason Bay.[/quote:esuynm8z] Yeah, I don't mean that kind of fire. I mean the kind of fire that inspires one to manage the team, minors, and transactions in way that brings success to the entire organization. As opposed to the typical Omar transaction of acquiring an aging vet and hoping he'll work out better than the last aging vet (in other words "safe" moves). AG/DC Jun 17 2008 10:35 AM ="metirish":4jt3cm9p]Says there is a full blown media circus in the hotel lobby with satellite trucks rolling up , camera's aimed at the elevators.[/quote:4jt3cm9p] Come out guns blazing, boys. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 11:06 AM Does he wear his Mets togs to the All-Star game or instead opt for a one-day Rockies uniform as a member of Clint Hurdle's staff? Or does he blow it off completely? Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 11:09 AM I think he loses the assignment, unless, perhaps, he latches on as a coach with another NL team. I bet he'll be there, in the stands, as a guest of the Steinbrenners. Gwreck Jun 17 2008 11:10 AM He'll be replaced on the NL coaching staff by Joe Torre. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 11:13 AM I'm having a Ramon Castro moment: The 5 p.m. press conference: That's New York time, or Anaheim time? duan Jun 17 2008 11:33 AM ny time. 2pm local Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 11:37 AM Cool, thanks. I wonder if SNY will cover it. (You'd think so, but when the Mets had their Memorial Day press conference, it was on ESPN2 but not on SNY. SNY didn't want to interrupt their Beer Money marathon.) metsguyinmichigan Jun 17 2008 11:41 AM Olney, who ever wrote the ESPN piece, railing against leaks is a joke. "Leaks are bad...unless they're leaking to me." If leaks are so bad, then stop using unnamed sources in your columns. It's not hard. I bet I haven't used one in one of my stories in a decade. Count the number of times in today's stories alone that you see "a person close to the Mets thinking" or "one executive" or something along those lines. Hell, I don't know how far I'd have to go back to find a story from Klapisch, Heyman or the like where they actually name a source. When a source tells me they don't want their name used, I tell them to tell me someone who will go on the record and stand behind what they say, or point me where I can find the information on my own. Usually means I have to work a little harder, and the quotes aren't as colorful. But at least people are held accountable for what they say and do. Most of the people at my paper work the same way. (Steps off preachy soapbox, with apologies for venting) Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 11:46 AM I think that should be the rule in journalism in general. as for this mess, i'm already over it. Manuel is the manager, who cares how willie and company got fired, let move on. soupcan Jun 17 2008 11:50 AM ="AG/DC":19ghihv5]Does he wear his Mets togs to the All-Star game or instead opt for a one-day Rockies uniform as a member of Clint Hurdle's staff?[/quote:19ghihv5] Wasn't there an All-Star manager who was fired prior to the All-Star game? I'm pretty sure there was - Dick Howser possibly? I think that that guy did not manage and his replacement was the manager of the team that was beaten in the playoffs. Am I dreaming this? Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 11:53 AM Dusty Baker, if I remember right, managed the 2003 NL team as a Chicago Cub. Danny Murtagh came out of retirement to manage the 1972 NL team. I don't remember the Dick Howser thing, but it sounds somewhat familiar. Was he fired, or did he die before the All Star Game. (That's a bit tougher to come back from.) AG/DC Jun 17 2008 12:00 PM Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform. If Willie's still collecting a Met salary, I imagine he'll wear the uniform. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 12:04 PM If I were him, I'd wear one of those generic NATIONAL LEAGUE jerseys and caps that they wear during batting practice. I'd figure, if I'm a man without a team, I might as well dress like one. I really do expect him to be swiftly returned to the embrace of the Yankees, though. Maybe even before the All Star Game. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 12:06 PM He could, perhaps more easily, end up on Torre's Dodger staff, and perhaps once again view himself as a potential successor. cooby Jun 17 2008 12:07 PM ="AG/DC":iydqzyqg]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform. If Willie's still collecting a Met salary, I imagine he'll wear the uniform.[/quote:iydqzyqg] Maybe they will make him Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 12:15 PM ="AG/DC":3skwvu3k]He could, perhaps more easily, end up on Torre's Dodger staff, and perhaps once again view himself as a potential successor.[/quote:3skwvu3k] Good point! Joe should wait until Willie flies back to New York, and then summon him to LA for an interview. soupcan Jun 17 2008 12:52 PM ="AG/DC":159as6ki]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:159as6ki] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:34 PM Adam Rubin is perhaps the first to get quotes. Willie Randolph says he's stung, and Rick Peterson compares it to a trip to Home Depot: ]Blindsided Willie Randolph says he was 'really stung' by firing By ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Tuesday, June 17th 2008, 1:44 PM Willie Randolph says he was 'surprised' and 'stung' by early-morning firing. COSTA MESA, Calif. - Willie Randolph suggested he was blindsided by his firing early this morning, saying in brief comments as he left the Westin South Coast Plaza hotel today that he had no inkling of his imminent firing when he left Angel Stadium after Monday night's victory. "I don't have much to say, really," Randolph said roughly nine hours after he was fired by GM Omar Minaya. "I'm just very disappointed that I'm not going to be able to fulfill what my dream is, which is to come here and help this team win a world championship. I'm just going to miss my players. To the fans, I'm really sorry that I wasn't able to fulfill what I really said I wanted to do here - get this team to a world championship. That's what I've always been about. It's very, very difficult right now, but I'm ready to move on." Asked shortly before 2 p.m. EDT what was next for him, Randolph said: "Just go home and enjoy my family." Randolph, who seemed subdued but unshaken, insisted he had no clue as he left the stadium Monday. "No, no," he said. "I was really stung by it. I was surprised." Pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto, who also were fired, left the hotel just before Randolph. "I came here five years ago. Fred and Jeff (Wilpon) gave me a wonderful opportunity," Peterson said. "I left Oakland to come here and be with my kids on the East Coast, and it's been wonderful. I appreciated the opportunity and they welcomed me into their home. Homes go through renovations. Sometimes you have to make changes when things don't go that well. I'm part of that change. I totally understand that. I grew up in the baseball business. I'm the hardwood floor that's getting ripped out. And they're going to bring in the Tuscany tile. And it will be great." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:37 PM And this, from the Rocky Mountain News, appears to answer the All Star Game question: ]Hurdle likely will find All-Star sub for Randolph By Jack Etkin, Rocky Mountain News Originally published 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 Updated 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 National League manager Clint Hurdle of the Rockies likely will add another coach to his All-Star staff after the New York Mets' firing of Willie Randolph early Tuesday. Hurdle had asked Randolph and San Diego manager Bud Black to be on his coaching staff for the July 15 All-Star Game in the final season at Yankee Stadium. Randolph grew up in Brooklyn, played and coached for the Yankees and managed the Mets. "It�s Clint�s decision, but he will talk with us before he extends an invitation to someone," said Katy Feeney, senior vice president of scheduling and club relations for Major League Baseball. "But since this just happened, we�d like to be able to think about it for a day or two." Feeney said she had not spoken with Hurdle but had discussed the situation with Jay Alves, the Rockies' vice president of communications and public relations. Feeney said she wanted to talk with Randolph but "would let him take a breath and get home." He was fired shortly after midnight PDT Tuesday in Anaheim, Calif., where the Mets had opened a western trip with a 9-6 victory over the Los Angeles Angels. That six-game trip concludes with three games at Coors Field, beginning Friday. Asked whether it was possible Randolph would remain on Hurdle�s staff even though he was not working, Feeney said, "I seriously doubt that would happen." Feeney said this is the first instance of a manager who was scheduled to be an All-Star coach being fired before the game. She cited two recent examples of managers who were All-Star coaches being fired soon after the game. Houston manager Jimy Williams was a National League coach when the game was played at Houston�s Minute Maid Park in 2004. The Astros fired Williams the day after the game. Two days after the 2002 All-Star Game in Milwaukee, the Cleveland Indians fired manager Charlie Manuel, who had been an American League coach. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 01:39 PM Well, Rick's lost his mind. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:43 PM Peterson as philosophical as ever . John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 01:44 PM Reached for comment as he arrived at the hotel, Dan Warthen refuted Peterson's allegations. "I'm more of a tibetan throw rug." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:45 PM Well, right now the pitching coach has a choice of two nicknames: "Tuscany Tile" or "Wart Hen." Most likely, neither will stick (only Valadius knows for sure) but I think I'd lean towards Tuscany Tile if I were him. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM Well Dan Warthen really made a mess of things , asked at the hotel how he was going to fix the bullpen he said that would only take a few minutes , Jay Horowitz was seen shaking his head as he ushered him away. SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM ="soupcan":jwyzhyig] ="AG/DC":jwyzhyig]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Cubs didn't knock the Giants out of the playoffs though. Methead Jun 17 2008 01:53 PM Unfortunately for Peterson, now he's more like the guy who stretches the little chain across the aisle to block it off while another guy uses a forklift to take something off a really high shelf. cooby Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM ="soupcan":1g82r3bd] ="AG/DC":1g82r3bd]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Maybe because both names make you hungry Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM I got the above articles after doing a Google News search on "Willie Randolph." I just now refreshed the results page, and the Mets are just plain getting ripped all over the place, pretty much universally, for their handling of this. Words I'm seeing include "vicious," "gutless," "evil,", "classless," and "dysfunctional." I really do wonder who thought it was a good idea to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time? Why couldn't they have called a 9 a.m. (Pacific Time) press conference? Sure, maybe something would have leaked in the early hours today (perhaps when it was discovered that Oberkfell and Warthen were en route) but that wouldn't have been so bad at all. Not compared to the shitstorm they've kicked off. How could they not have known? I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:00 PM I wonder if that Lennon fellow has a perch at the airport to spy on the Mets, too? metirish Jun 17 2008 02:02 PM Yeah I thought Fred and Jeff were very image conscious yet they let this shit happen , is Horowitz responsible for this? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:05 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1k2k7ea6] I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here.[/quote:1k2k7ea6] If you criticize everything the Mets ever do you are bound to be right eventually Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Namor makes a good point. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 02:17 PM If they fired them last night, they needed to issue the press release last night, or else Willie or Peterson or �ieto can break the story. Maybe I have Castro's Disease, but isn't 3 AM midnight out there. And isn't that pretty much what time you'd expect after a 7:05 West Coast start goes 3:10 and then they talk to the victims at the hotel so as not to do it in front of their troops. I didn't like the Willie hiring. I don't like the firing or how it was done, but I think too much is being made of the last. How many were crying for the Mets to axe him or state outright that his job was safe? So they did. There's no way to do this that isn't ugly. Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM i'm fine with it. Manuel's Mets. Tonight. 10:05 PM. I'm ready. metirish Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM Excellent points there edgy , especially regarding the time difference. PatchyFogg Jun 17 2008 02:21 PM I'm not so sure that the timing of the firing was to avoid Father's Day, as much as it was to avoid being the 2nd Mets blunder on a June 15th. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:23 PM Hey Patchy! Long time/no time! (Or however that goes...) Do you really think that firing Willie was a "blunder"? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Six minutes to Omar ... this should be, um, er ...well it'll be something. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 02:58 PM Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan? SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 02:59 PM ="Frayed Knot":36fy43x9]Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan?[/quote:36fy43x9] HA! Good question, does anyone know what team she was a Lovin' Big Shot for before 2005? But now she doesn't know people, BIG people! Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:00 PM ="cooby"]Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? So they can listen on WFAN maybe? I'm sure Mike and Dawg will be covering it. (I'm more sure that they'll have it than that SNY will.) Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM c: >>>Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars?<<< I read on Don Jennon's blog that it was so people had to listen on the radio and not watch on the tv. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM SNY is covering it, on Daily News Live. Omar will be standing in front of an Angels podium, with an Angels backdrop. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:02 PM 40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 03:04 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1x5ho6d8]40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement?[/quote:1x5ho6d8] that WAS his written statement, if not there would have been 60-70% "ums" and "uhs" Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:06 PM Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM Although I'd prefer ask to ax. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM I think so too. But today he appears drunk. He's repeating himself like crazy. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:09 PM Probably didn't get much sleep. This is pointless if they can't mic up the questions from the gallery better. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:17 PM "I can tell you that, yes, Jerry Manuel will be the manager for the rest of the year." Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Questions directed to Manuel seem to be a lot more audible on SNY than the one's that Omar fielded. G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Alomar no longer third base coach, but bench coach. Hallelujah! John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 03:54 PM Jerry: Almost as good as Omar's been bad so far! Kong76 Jun 17 2008 04:00 PM Yeah, I like him so far. First words out of him were something like, "Adam, my brother, wazzzup?" G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 04:01 PM Wow, it's like listening to a baseball man, not a politician. Jay Horwitz had to have wished he brought one of those hooks from vaudeville listening to Omar. But Manuel's a godsend. If he manages like he talks, we might not suck nearly as much. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 04:57 PM I agree. I'm very encouraged so far. Of course, we're all rooting for him to do so well that he's invited back, but now that feeling is stronger. Grote15 Jun 17 2008 05:18 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 18 2008 10:45 AM A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also and Howard Johnson will be the manager of your New York Mets starring Hojos best bud david Wright.D 2010 Carlos Gomez signed by Yankees AG/DC Jun 17 2008 05:41 PM I'll take that bet. (Now I need to figure out who Carlos Lopez is.) Rockin' Doc Jun 17 2008 06:42 PM Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought. metirish Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="KC":1z7nhqrc]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:1z7nhqrc] I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean? Liked what I heard from Manuel. SNY are doing an all out bonanza with special programming , Mets in Transition , even dragged Keith in from the street. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="Grote15":hlktko6f]A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also[/quote:hlktko6f] I know this is just silliness, but I fear the stupidity in the Mets' front office. I sometimes feel like they are acutely attuned to the dumbest impulses of their fan base; who are, in turn, easily swayed by the idiot New York sports columnists and radio hosts. Wallace Matthews said something a few weeks ago about how Reyes has been more Rey Ordonez than Derek Jeter and Mike & the Mad Dog had him all but traded to Toronto for Vernon Wells and David Eckstein the other day. I know I should just ignore such lunatic morons, but I fear they can poison a portion of this town into believing something ridiculous, which could then catch the attention of the not-too-bright Wilpons. Reyes is a gift from the baseball gods. I don't know why they gave him to us, but they did. Fans might go their whole lives and only be able to root for one or two stars who shine like he does, and that's if they're lucky. A guy who runs like Hermes and throws like Apollo and plays shortstop. For the Dusty Baker types, he hustles and scraps and gets his uniform dirty. For the Billy Beane types, he gets on base and hits for power and steals at an 80% clip. He's a plus on defense, he's a plus on offense, he's a plus on the basepaths and he doesn't seem like a jerk. He's a home grown talent that we were privileged to watch grow up before our eyes, and when he's gone we'll have a Jose Reyes-shaped hole in our baseball souls. I know no sane GM would ever trade a player like him, but as I watch Scott Kazmir shoot lightning from his left hand (right now he's 2-hitting the Cubs through 4 2/3) sometimes I worry that some worm-tongue will get into a Wilpon's mind and conspire to take Reyes away from us. Like Borat once said, "Yes, I fear!" AG/DC Jun 17 2008 06:53 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 07:39 PM ="Rockin' Doc":1jslk0em]Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought.[/quote:1jslk0em] Punctuation is also apparently a luxury. What street did they find Keef on? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:06 PM irish: >>>I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean?<<< Yeah, I don't know why I even jumped to his defense ... especially here. Sometimes I forget where I'm posting and was thinking maybe jeez let's not let's jump on the guy's English when he's obviously bettering himself on that front. 'kay? OK? 'kay? -- he needs to work on that next. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:08 PM I'll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM ="KC":zwyu84pq]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:zwyu84pq] Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM irish: >>>'ll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK?<<< I don't know what you mean, I was joking. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:25 PM lunchgrabber: >>>Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing<<< I said that in the first five minutes or so. His public speaking has improved a lot, English wise. That was a long and and painful thing to listen to and watch as it evolved. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:28 PM I then saw Omar give an interview in German and I must say he has improved a great deal. Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 08:36 PM ="AG/DC":3cc9wicn]What street did they find Keef on?[/quote:3cc9wicn] Main Street in Sag Harbor most likely. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:11 AM ="AG/DC"]OK, I'll bite. What would be the purpose of trying to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages? The purpose would be to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages, I suppose. New Motto for the Mets: 'This Ain't About Love' By TIM MARCHMAN June 18, 2008 "This ain't about love," Mets general manager Omar Minaya wants you to know. "We're trying to win a championship." At a press conference in Anaheim yesterday, much of which he spent unconvincingly claiming that Mets ownership had nothing to do with the Monday night massacre that claimed the jobs of manager Willie Randolph, pitching coach Rick Peterson, and first base coach Tom Nieto, Minaya went all-in. Having to defend the indefensible � coming just past midnight Pacific time after a win on the first game of a road trip, the firings seemed timed to keep the news off the back pages of the tabloids for a day and made an instant martyr of the inept Randolph � Minaya was not content merely to say that he had assembled a team that should have won this year, but said outright that he thinks his team still can win. "I feel that we have a championship team," he said. "We have talent to do that." In the sense that any major league team has the talent to win a championship, this is true. As Minaya spoke, his team was 61/2 games behind Philadelphia for the division lead and seven behind St. Louis for the wild-card lead. At the same time a year ago, the Yankees were 81/2 games out of first place, the Chicago Cubs were 61/2 games out, and Colorado was 51/2 games behind. Those three teams all ended up playing in October; and given the circumstances, there's no need to dwell on where Philadelphia placed in the standings as of last September 12. The Mets are, in theory, far from done. To believe that the Mets have a serious chance at winning is, though, to venture far from the fields of probability and into the fields of faith � always a bad bet, given that, as the great band the Minutemen reminded us, even God bows to math. Going into last night's games, Philadelphia was 42-30, and the Mets were 34-35. Were the Phillies to play .500 ball the rest of the year, the Mets would need to go 54-39 the rest of the way to surpass them. That works out to a winning percentage of .581, a 94-win pace over the course of a full season. Certainly the Mets could play that well, just as I could be the beneficiary of a giant bag of $100 bills falling out of the sky, but over the last calendar year, the team is 85-81, and since the beginning of 2007, they're 107-100. The evidence suggests that they're slightly better than a .500 team � capable of going on a league-shredding tear, but unlikely to do so. It should be noted as well that even if they do win 58% of their games for the rest of the year, which would leave them with 88 wins, it will hardly guarantee them a playoff berth. Philadelphia is well capable of winning more than half their games over the rest of the year, and only twice has a team won the wild card with fewer than 90 wins. Any kind of independent analysis foretells a grim fate for the Mets. Baseball Prospectus calculates that the Mets have a 9% chance of winning the division; going by oddschecker.com, offshore bookmakers give them 9-2 odds. Even figuring in the wild card, the Mets have, to be generous, a one-in-five chance of making the playoffs. The problem for Mets fans is that while Minaya may be drawing to an inside straight, and facing long odds in doing so, he's pot committed: Whatever the odds of the team playing in October are, they're higher than the odds of the GM keeping his job if the team finishes out of the money. He thus has every incentive to forge bravely onward, chasing his vanishing chance of success. The Wilpon family, which owns the Mets, also has every reason to run after any fleeting shot at victory. If the team makes a miraculous comeback, it will guarantee the team millions, and perhaps tens of millions, in playoff revenue, while assuring them of still more cash in years to come as the turnstiles turn and the people tune in to Mets games on SNY. Thus, even if in some abstract sense the best thing for the team would be to shop Oliver Perez, Billy Wagner, and perhaps even Carlos Beltran for young talent, doing so would benefit no one with any stake in the game. This being the dynamic, the question is basically whether new manager Jerry Manuel might actually pull off the improbable and engineer a raging run at first. It may be a long shot, but longer shots have landed. What the Mets do have going for them is that a lot of their best players have more in them than they've given. Perez has been execrable, while John Maine has been average. Beltran and David Wright can hit better than they have to date; Pedro Martinez is healthy-ish. If all these core players just revert to their usual selves, the Mets will improve. Even Johan Santana, who's been Cy Young-worthy so far, has more in him than Mets fans have seen; the traditionally slow starter has been on fire over his last three games, and may well be on course for some preposterous stretch of a dozen straight games in which he gives up two or fewer runs. He's done it before. Conversely, there are few players who can be expected to be much worse than they've been. Jose Reyes is hitting near the top of his range, but not over his head; he can be counted on. Meanwhile, the team has treaded water with Moises Alou and Ryan Church hurt, Carlos Delgado hitting as well as Luis Castillo, a bench populated by decrepit second basemen and third-string catchers scraping unfathomed depths, and Aaron Heilman invoking fond hopes for the return of Guillermo Mota. Anything approaching health or improvement from this part of the roster will give the team a real boost. If all of this amounts to saying that the Mets will be good if lots of players who have played well play better while others who haven't played well play less badly, that's because that's what it would take for the Mets to be any good. There are short odds of any of this happening, let alone all of it, which is why the team rates as a cosmic joke, an epic botch to rate with anything we've seen out of Madison Square Garden the last several years, and why in a sensible world the whole thing would be blown up with high explosives. No secret midnight firing, no epically lame press conference, and no shameful, cowardly, Dolanish conduct on behalf of ownership can change what this team is. Their only hope is the rawest of raw luck, and not only isn't it coming, they don't deserve it. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:15 AM Front page Willie. G-Fafif Jun 18 2008 03:10 AM John Koblin in the Observer, he who captured those damning "we're too good to care" quotes last September, frames the malaise...and will quote anybody in doing so: ]But the 2008 team has been disappointing in a totally unfamiliar way. They are boring and unenthusiastic and, as far as their famously passionate fans are concerned, they don�t inspire much of any emotion at all. �This year, I just don�t care if they win or lose,� said Greg Prince, the 45-year-old co-author of the Mets blog, Faith and Fear in Flushing. �This hasn�t happened to me before. You know what really bothers me? I think for so many Mets fans, the Mets are their identity. I�m not a religious person, and I�m not a God-and-country guy. So if I�m a Mets fan, and if I don�t care if they lose, I start thinking, �Am I doing this right anymore? Am I a bad fan for not caring?�� themetfairy Jun 18 2008 05:00 AM Whoah - FAFIF is no longer our best kept secret! AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:15 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 26 2008 03:49 PM I understand Greg's position. We all wonder if we give too much to this abstract idea, and few give more than Greg. But I'm still scratching my head. I didn't want Willie fired. Others did. He's fired. What's the real issue? Did they tell him he was safe and then shoot him in the back of the head? Never in New York history? How can that be anything less than a Yankee whitewash? It sucks. I want a team that's proactive, rather than reactive. And that's what this move is. But the fan base has been calling for blood for months. The management gives them some and they turn on management? We got cleon jones bouncing in and out of threads looking for more blood. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:16 AM More Front Page Willie: Benjamin Grimm Jun 18 2008 07:25 AM This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. metirish Jun 18 2008 07:29 AM Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. ] Ratting out Randolph Were a poll to be taken Tuesday, you can rest assured that New Yorkers would be of two minds about the ownership of the New York Mets - the debate being whether to rank the Wilpons above or below the subway rat on the scale of urban vermin. It's a tough question, considering how the Wilpons and the genus Rattus norvegicus are given to slinking in the dark. Charitable types that we are, we give a slight edge to Fred and Jeff Wilpon in that the genus Jerkus gigantus does not transmit rabies, so far as anyone knows. But, damn, those Wilpons can be repulsive creatures, as New York has just seen in how they gave Willie Randolph the boot. In the middle of the night. In California. Sure, GM Omar Minaya says he made the call to fire Randolph - but do you believe for a second that the Wilpons did not okay the gutless, graceless method of execution? Whatever his managerial shortcomings, Randolph has been aces since long before he became the first African-American to manage in the city, since long before he took the field at second for the Yankees. Up from Brooklyn, Randolph unfailingly conducted himself with class. Not so the Wilpons. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better? Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 07:35 AM It's as if the writers are more pissed off at the timing, not because it was particularly cruel to Willie, but because it didn't occur at an hour convenient to them. Lots of stuff to question here but the time of day shouldn't be one of them. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:37 AM There are more than enough reasons to not buy the News. That they blow things out of proportion to sell papers is, well, not news. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:39 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"]This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. Post of the season! Couldn't agree more. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:44 AM I rarely take the Wilpon's side but this whole Midnight Massacre thing venom is, to me, an overblown NY media frenzy. Where does it say that a Manager can't get fired less than two hours after the end of a game? Or was Omar supposed to walk into the dugout and relieve Willie during the seventh inning stretch so that Willie could catch an earlier flight back to NY? Three o'clock in the morning? That's just spin. It was midnight local time and that's the only time that counts. Otherwise, I'll tell you about my cousin who was on a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic when Willie got fired . He's doubly pissed about the whole affair. Or one point seven pissed. It was five o'clock in the morning my cousin's time. The Mets weren't obligated to notify their East Coast followers of the firing before bedtime. And as far as Willie's concerned, he was wide awake at midnight local time, and would've been so whether or not he stayed. Because in the baseball universe in which Mets players and coaches exist, Willie's last game - a night game - was followed by another night game. And in that context, any Met could've decided to stay awake till six or seven in the morning and still have enough time to get a full night' sleep (assuming you want to call it a full night's sleep being that it's hypothetically beginning after sunrise) and arrive at the stadium on time for the next night game. West Coast firing? Willie was fired far from home? So what. It's an occupational risk. Firings are never pleasant. What matters is how the Mets will compete over the remainder of the season and whether Manuel is competent. All the rest is noise. Gwreck Jun 18 2008 07:48 AM ="metirish":3aij0dcp]Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better?[/quote:3aij0dcp] No. If you want better, you'll have to switch to the NY Times. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:50 AM Did everybody decide to write the same post during the last 20 minutes? Methead Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM The Dugout Chat knows how it all transpired. Transcript here[/url:twomty35] John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM This is about Madden and his hard-on for 1970s Yankees. It informs the DN's entire sports-page POV. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:00 AM I can take this from Jon Stewart, because he's bleeding with us - AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:12 AM He's not with me. He's perpetuating the myth because it makes a better story and better comedy. Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:18 AM ="AG/DC"]Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. YES, YES, YES! Why is this hard for people to see?! He was fired at 11:00ish after the game. That's when managers get fired! Arrrrgh. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:24 AM Kevin Burkhardt reported that the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time. That's still the middle of the night in my book. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:31 AM Which is around the 11 o'clock hour, is certainly not three in the morning, and is about the time a manager might get back to the hotel. If the firing is unseemly, then it's unseemly. But the method it was done seems so typically typical of an in-season firing that it's banal. Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 08:32 AM ]the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time -- That's still the middle of the night in my book. Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 08:46 AM There are a dozen Met fans here funnier than Jon Stewart. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:59 AM You're sweet. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mqm1e0q]Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that.[/quote:2mqm1e0q] Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM Not you. soupcan Jun 18 2008 09:11 AM Ouch. Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:13 AM Not me either. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 09:20 AM Well, sheesh. If you two don't count, who could he mean? There's Rogers, sure, but he's not a Met fan. seawolf17 Jun 18 2008 09:35 AM No, CF counts. Remember Latvia? themetfairy Jun 18 2008 09:41 AM ="seawolf17":35mwt1ys]No, CF counts. Remember Latvia?[/quote:35mwt1ys] Every time I hear about Latvia, I think of CF. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 06:37 PM Quotes, Comments, and Excerpts on The Midnight Massacre +1 ]Jose Reyes might just as well have spit in his new manager's face, right there on the field. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]Less than two hours after the Mets defeated the Angels on Monday night, the announcement of Randolph's firing was released to the media -- timing that Paul Lo Duca, another former Met, called "unprofessional." Chico Harlan, Washington Post ]Wright credited Randolph for helping him blossom into one of the game's best young players, but appeared eager to move on with Manuel in charge. "I'll forever be grateful for Willie for giving me the opportunity to continue my development as a young player," Wright said. "He took this team to a different level while he was here. But that being said, I'm excited about what Jerry can bring to the table." Bart Hubbuch NY Post ]That is what constitutes being a good general manager around here, taking the bullets for the boss until the day the boss steps out of the shadows and puts one in you. Minaya knows this, having seen Steve Phillips pull the same routine eight years ago, squirming uncomfortably while painting Alex Rodriguez as a "24-and-1 guy" to cover up the truth: that his boss, Fred Wilpon, didn't want to spend the money. We know how well that worked out for Phillips and we know how it will eventually work out for Minaya.... After all, for Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' cuckoo COO, time was running out.... If he didn't nip this in the bud now, the Mets might make a run and he'd never get to do what he has been aching to do since October 2006. Jeff Wilpon would never get to can the manager. There really is no other explanation for the timing of Randolph's firing�. [A] source closely connected to the heated infighting over Randolph's future told me on Monday, "Jeff has been remorseless in his desire to get rid of Willie." That desire went back to the 2006 NLCS, after which Wilpon looked back at the series - Billy Wagner blowing a key save, Aaron Heilman giving up a game-winning home run in Game 7 and Beltran staring at a season-ending 3-2 curveball with the bases loaded - and determined that Willie Randolph was the problem. "[Jeff] is a reactive young man," the source said. "He thinks he is the baseball expert, and he decided that Willie was not the guy to lead this club...." He's also the source of most of the leaks to the media recently that the manager was on thin ice, which rendered somewhat laughable Minaya's contention that questions about Randolph's job status were becoming too much of a distraction for his continued employment.... Consequently, the Mets turned an easy firing into the front-office equivalent of blowing a seven-game lead in September. Under Jeff Wilpon's expert guidance, the Mets made the Yankees' divorce from Joe Torre look like a family retirement party. Now, they hand the whole mess over to Jerry Manuel, who seems like a nice enough guy but obviously the wrong choice. Still out there is Gary Carter, who seems like a perfect fit: a confirmed backstabber and schemer who campaigned publicly for Randolph's job last month while he was still the manager. How Jeff Wilpon missed out on a soul mate like that is almost as baffling as the firing of Willie Randolph. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]NEW YORK (AP) � Willie Randolph figured the New York Mets would fire someone. He just didn't think general manager Omar Minaya would pick him. "I thought he was talking about whacking a couple of my coaches," the ex-manager told several New York-area newspapers Wednesday outside his home in Franklin Lakes, N.J. "That's why I was stunned. I didn't think it was going to happen," Randolph said. "At the time, I felt the way he was talking to me, that I was pretty secure for the time being...." "Not the way I would have handled it," he said. "Bottom line, it is what it is." Willie Randolph, Associated Press ]The five-hour long flight from Los Angeles to New York provides ample time for introspection. Especially if you�re Willie Randolph, now the former Mets manager. Dismissed from his job after the Mets beat the Los Angeles Angels on Monday in Anaheim, Randolph arrived back home in New Jersey late Tuesday, his head still swimming from being told by Mets General Manager Omar Minaya that he was no longer the manager of the Mets. In a telephone interview Tuesday night, Randolph said he remained stunned by the dismissal, which took place in Minaya�s hotel room. �I didn�t see this coming,� he said. �When I spoke to Omar the day before I knew there might be some changes, but I got the feeling I was safe.� Or at least, Randolph added, safe until the next Mets-Yankees series, which takes place the last weekend of June, or the All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium, which takes place in the middle of July. On Sunday, as the Mets split a doubleheader at Shea Stadium with the Texas Rangers, Randolph said that he asked Minaya to pull the trigger, if that�s what Minaya had in mind, and not have Randolph travel all the way across the country to Anaheim. �I actually asked him. I said, �Omar, do this now. If you�re going to do this, do this now. I know you�ve got a lot of pressure on you, but if I�m not the guy to lead this team then don�t let me get on this plane.� I did say that to him.� �I just told Willie that I want to have closure by the end of this trip,� Minaya said Wednesday when asked to respond to Randolph�s assertion that he told Minaya he did not want to get on the plane if his dismissal was imminent. The trip the Mets are now on ends Sunday in Colorado, with the Mets then returning to Shea on Monday night to play Seattle. Minaya has also stated that he was not sure what he was going to do about Randolph when he went to sleep Sunday night and that he did not make up his mind until Monday... Asked if he thought his dismissal was entirely Minaya�s idea, as the general manager is contending, Randolph said: �I have my doubts. Let�s just leave it at that. I have my doubts.� At his Tuesday news conference in Anaheim, Minaya was asked if he thought Randolph had been treated shabbily by the Mets organization. He said he did not think that was the case. But asked if he thought �shabby� was too strong a word to characterize his treatment, Randolph chuckled, and said: �That�s not strong enough.� Wiliam Rhoden, NY Times Kong76 Jun 18 2008 06:58 PM CF, Latvia ... lol, Baltic Bomber humor never gets old. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:58 PM If you made up Wallace Matthews, I'd think he was too un-realistic a character. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 23 2008 08:52 PM Fred Wilpon takes the blame[/url:5bclim2i] for how Willie's firing went down. Or not. I kinda think he is really just pointing the finger at Omar. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 27 2008 08:25 PM Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding. SteveJRogers Dec 27 2008 09:22 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":20ivi8ic]Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding.[/quote:20ivi8ic] The thing is also that the whole incident is one "card" the anti-Wilpons or anti-Met people, whether fan or media member, will use forever to deride the Mets or the Wilpons as being classless; As in "Yeah, but we've never had a guy fly 3,000 miles only to fire him at night and fly all the way back." Like the argument over the 2004 ALCS vs 7 up with 17 to play (Which seems like this board actually is the only place where 7 up with 17 to play is NOT considered the greatest collapse in the history of sports period, but that is another topic), it is one more burden that Met fans have to put up with when arguing with other fans, or people that just don't know the whole story. metirish Dec 27 2008 09:27 PM The thing is that was a fun read over. A Boy Named Seo Dec 27 2008 10:03 PM Where the hell is Roblatt? TransMonk Dec 29 2008 03:27 PM I like how the embedded Newsday cover shows today's news. Edgy DC Dec 29 2008 06:25 PM Bam! ="seawolf17"] "Well, Joe, I'm just saying I'm available. In fact, I'm actually on a flight to Anaheim right now, and I brought my big box of manager stuff." Kong76 Dec 29 2008 06:57 PM Good bump, good nomination, and good illustration of 'bucket's sig line. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 29 2008 08:27 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2u8um23g][ Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg[/quote:2u8um23g] This response didn't get enough lolove.

[Guest AG/DC]

="metirish":4jt3cm9p]Says there is a full blown media circus in the hotel lobby with satellite trucks rolling up , camera's aimed at the elevators.[/quote:4jt3cm9p] Come out guns blazing, boys.

AG/DC Jun 17 2008 11:06 AM

Does he wear his Mets togs to the All-Star game or instead opt for a one-day Rockies uniform as a member of Clint Hurdle's staff? Or does he blow it off completely?

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 11:09 AM

I think he loses the assignment, unless, perhaps, he latches on as a coach with another NL team. I bet he'll be there, in the stands, as a guest of the Steinbrenners.

Gwreck Jun 17 2008 11:10 AM

He'll be replaced on the NL coaching staff by Joe Torre.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 11:13 AM

I'm having a Ramon Castro moment: The 5 p.m. press conference: That's New York time, or Anaheim time?

duan Jun 17 2008 11:33 AM

ny time. 2pm local

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 11:37 AM

Cool, thanks. I wonder if SNY will cover it. (You'd think so, but when the Mets had their Memorial Day press conference, it was on ESPN2 but not on SNY. SNY didn't want to interrupt their Beer Money marathon.)

metsguyinmichigan Jun 17 2008 11:41 AM

Olney, who ever wrote the ESPN piece, railing against leaks is a joke. "Leaks are bad...unless they're leaking to me." If leaks are so bad, then stop using unnamed sources in your columns. It's not hard. I bet I haven't used one in one of my stories in a decade. Count the number of times in today's stories alone that you see "a person close to the Mets thinking" or "one executive" or something along those lines. Hell, I don't know how far I'd have to go back to find a story from Klapisch, Heyman or the like where they actually name a source. When a source tells me they don't want their name used, I tell them to tell me someone who will go on the record and stand behind what they say, or point me where I can find the information on my own. Usually means I have to work a little harder, and the quotes aren't as colorful. But at least people are held accountable for what they say and do. Most of the people at my paper work the same way. (Steps off preachy soapbox, with apologies for venting)

Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 11:46 AM

I think that should be the rule in journalism in general. as for this mess, i'm already over it. Manuel is the manager, who cares how willie and company got fired, let move on.

soupcan Jun 17 2008 11:50 AM

="AG/DC":19ghihv5]Does he wear his Mets togs to the All-Star game or instead opt for a one-day Rockies uniform as a member of Clint Hurdle's staff?[/quote:19ghihv5] Wasn't there an All-Star manager who was fired prior to the All-Star game? I'm pretty sure there was - Dick Howser possibly? I think that that guy did not manage and his replacement was the manager of the team that was beaten in the playoffs. Am I dreaming this? Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 11:53 AM Dusty Baker, if I remember right, managed the 2003 NL team as a Chicago Cub. Danny Murtagh came out of retirement to manage the 1972 NL team. I don't remember the Dick Howser thing, but it sounds somewhat familiar. Was he fired, or did he die before the All Star Game. (That's a bit tougher to come back from.) AG/DC Jun 17 2008 12:00 PM Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform. If Willie's still collecting a Met salary, I imagine he'll wear the uniform. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 12:04 PM If I were him, I'd wear one of those generic NATIONAL LEAGUE jerseys and caps that they wear during batting practice. I'd figure, if I'm a man without a team, I might as well dress like one. I really do expect him to be swiftly returned to the embrace of the Yankees, though. Maybe even before the All Star Game. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 12:06 PM He could, perhaps more easily, end up on Torre's Dodger staff, and perhaps once again view himself as a potential successor. cooby Jun 17 2008 12:07 PM ="AG/DC":iydqzyqg]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform. If Willie's still collecting a Met salary, I imagine he'll wear the uniform.[/quote:iydqzyqg] Maybe they will make him Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 12:15 PM ="AG/DC":3skwvu3k]He could, perhaps more easily, end up on Torre's Dodger staff, and perhaps once again view himself as a potential successor.[/quote:3skwvu3k] Good point! Joe should wait until Willie flies back to New York, and then summon him to LA for an interview. soupcan Jun 17 2008 12:52 PM ="AG/DC":159as6ki]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:159as6ki] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:34 PM Adam Rubin is perhaps the first to get quotes. Willie Randolph says he's stung, and Rick Peterson compares it to a trip to Home Depot: ]Blindsided Willie Randolph says he was 'really stung' by firing By ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Tuesday, June 17th 2008, 1:44 PM Willie Randolph says he was 'surprised' and 'stung' by early-morning firing. COSTA MESA, Calif. - Willie Randolph suggested he was blindsided by his firing early this morning, saying in brief comments as he left the Westin South Coast Plaza hotel today that he had no inkling of his imminent firing when he left Angel Stadium after Monday night's victory. "I don't have much to say, really," Randolph said roughly nine hours after he was fired by GM Omar Minaya. "I'm just very disappointed that I'm not going to be able to fulfill what my dream is, which is to come here and help this team win a world championship. I'm just going to miss my players. To the fans, I'm really sorry that I wasn't able to fulfill what I really said I wanted to do here - get this team to a world championship. That's what I've always been about. It's very, very difficult right now, but I'm ready to move on." Asked shortly before 2 p.m. EDT what was next for him, Randolph said: "Just go home and enjoy my family." Randolph, who seemed subdued but unshaken, insisted he had no clue as he left the stadium Monday. "No, no," he said. "I was really stung by it. I was surprised." Pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto, who also were fired, left the hotel just before Randolph. "I came here five years ago. Fred and Jeff (Wilpon) gave me a wonderful opportunity," Peterson said. "I left Oakland to come here and be with my kids on the East Coast, and it's been wonderful. I appreciated the opportunity and they welcomed me into their home. Homes go through renovations. Sometimes you have to make changes when things don't go that well. I'm part of that change. I totally understand that. I grew up in the baseball business. I'm the hardwood floor that's getting ripped out. And they're going to bring in the Tuscany tile. And it will be great." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:37 PM And this, from the Rocky Mountain News, appears to answer the All Star Game question: ]Hurdle likely will find All-Star sub for Randolph By Jack Etkin, Rocky Mountain News Originally published 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 Updated 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 National League manager Clint Hurdle of the Rockies likely will add another coach to his All-Star staff after the New York Mets' firing of Willie Randolph early Tuesday. Hurdle had asked Randolph and San Diego manager Bud Black to be on his coaching staff for the July 15 All-Star Game in the final season at Yankee Stadium. Randolph grew up in Brooklyn, played and coached for the Yankees and managed the Mets. "It�s Clint�s decision, but he will talk with us before he extends an invitation to someone," said Katy Feeney, senior vice president of scheduling and club relations for Major League Baseball. "But since this just happened, we�d like to be able to think about it for a day or two." Feeney said she had not spoken with Hurdle but had discussed the situation with Jay Alves, the Rockies' vice president of communications and public relations. Feeney said she wanted to talk with Randolph but "would let him take a breath and get home." He was fired shortly after midnight PDT Tuesday in Anaheim, Calif., where the Mets had opened a western trip with a 9-6 victory over the Los Angeles Angels. That six-game trip concludes with three games at Coors Field, beginning Friday. Asked whether it was possible Randolph would remain on Hurdle�s staff even though he was not working, Feeney said, "I seriously doubt that would happen." Feeney said this is the first instance of a manager who was scheduled to be an All-Star coach being fired before the game. She cited two recent examples of managers who were All-Star coaches being fired soon after the game. Houston manager Jimy Williams was a National League coach when the game was played at Houston�s Minute Maid Park in 2004. The Astros fired Williams the day after the game. Two days after the 2002 All-Star Game in Milwaukee, the Cleveland Indians fired manager Charlie Manuel, who had been an American League coach. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 01:39 PM Well, Rick's lost his mind. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:43 PM Peterson as philosophical as ever . John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 01:44 PM Reached for comment as he arrived at the hotel, Dan Warthen refuted Peterson's allegations. "I'm more of a tibetan throw rug." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:45 PM Well, right now the pitching coach has a choice of two nicknames: "Tuscany Tile" or "Wart Hen." Most likely, neither will stick (only Valadius knows for sure) but I think I'd lean towards Tuscany Tile if I were him. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM Well Dan Warthen really made a mess of things , asked at the hotel how he was going to fix the bullpen he said that would only take a few minutes , Jay Horowitz was seen shaking his head as he ushered him away. SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM ="soupcan":jwyzhyig] ="AG/DC":jwyzhyig]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Cubs didn't knock the Giants out of the playoffs though. Methead Jun 17 2008 01:53 PM Unfortunately for Peterson, now he's more like the guy who stretches the little chain across the aisle to block it off while another guy uses a forklift to take something off a really high shelf. cooby Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM ="soupcan":1g82r3bd] ="AG/DC":1g82r3bd]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Maybe because both names make you hungry Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM I got the above articles after doing a Google News search on "Willie Randolph." I just now refreshed the results page, and the Mets are just plain getting ripped all over the place, pretty much universally, for their handling of this. Words I'm seeing include "vicious," "gutless," "evil,", "classless," and "dysfunctional." I really do wonder who thought it was a good idea to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time? Why couldn't they have called a 9 a.m. (Pacific Time) press conference? Sure, maybe something would have leaked in the early hours today (perhaps when it was discovered that Oberkfell and Warthen were en route) but that wouldn't have been so bad at all. Not compared to the shitstorm they've kicked off. How could they not have known? I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:00 PM I wonder if that Lennon fellow has a perch at the airport to spy on the Mets, too? metirish Jun 17 2008 02:02 PM Yeah I thought Fred and Jeff were very image conscious yet they let this shit happen , is Horowitz responsible for this? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:05 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1k2k7ea6] I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here.[/quote:1k2k7ea6] If you criticize everything the Mets ever do you are bound to be right eventually Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Namor makes a good point. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 02:17 PM If they fired them last night, they needed to issue the press release last night, or else Willie or Peterson or �ieto can break the story. Maybe I have Castro's Disease, but isn't 3 AM midnight out there. And isn't that pretty much what time you'd expect after a 7:05 West Coast start goes 3:10 and then they talk to the victims at the hotel so as not to do it in front of their troops. I didn't like the Willie hiring. I don't like the firing or how it was done, but I think too much is being made of the last. How many were crying for the Mets to axe him or state outright that his job was safe? So they did. There's no way to do this that isn't ugly. Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM i'm fine with it. Manuel's Mets. Tonight. 10:05 PM. I'm ready. metirish Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM Excellent points there edgy , especially regarding the time difference. PatchyFogg Jun 17 2008 02:21 PM I'm not so sure that the timing of the firing was to avoid Father's Day, as much as it was to avoid being the 2nd Mets blunder on a June 15th. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:23 PM Hey Patchy! Long time/no time! (Or however that goes...) Do you really think that firing Willie was a "blunder"? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Six minutes to Omar ... this should be, um, er ...well it'll be something. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 02:58 PM Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan? SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 02:59 PM ="Frayed Knot":36fy43x9]Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan?[/quote:36fy43x9] HA! Good question, does anyone know what team she was a Lovin' Big Shot for before 2005? But now she doesn't know people, BIG people! Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:00 PM ="cooby"]Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? So they can listen on WFAN maybe? I'm sure Mike and Dawg will be covering it. (I'm more sure that they'll have it than that SNY will.) Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM c: >>>Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars?<<< I read on Don Jennon's blog that it was so people had to listen on the radio and not watch on the tv. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM SNY is covering it, on Daily News Live. Omar will be standing in front of an Angels podium, with an Angels backdrop. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:02 PM 40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 03:04 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1x5ho6d8]40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement?[/quote:1x5ho6d8] that WAS his written statement, if not there would have been 60-70% "ums" and "uhs" Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:06 PM Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM Although I'd prefer ask to ax. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM I think so too. But today he appears drunk. He's repeating himself like crazy. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:09 PM Probably didn't get much sleep. This is pointless if they can't mic up the questions from the gallery better. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:17 PM "I can tell you that, yes, Jerry Manuel will be the manager for the rest of the year." Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Questions directed to Manuel seem to be a lot more audible on SNY than the one's that Omar fielded. G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Alomar no longer third base coach, but bench coach. Hallelujah! John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 03:54 PM Jerry: Almost as good as Omar's been bad so far! Kong76 Jun 17 2008 04:00 PM Yeah, I like him so far. First words out of him were something like, "Adam, my brother, wazzzup?" G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 04:01 PM Wow, it's like listening to a baseball man, not a politician. Jay Horwitz had to have wished he brought one of those hooks from vaudeville listening to Omar. But Manuel's a godsend. If he manages like he talks, we might not suck nearly as much. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 04:57 PM I agree. I'm very encouraged so far. Of course, we're all rooting for him to do so well that he's invited back, but now that feeling is stronger. Grote15 Jun 17 2008 05:18 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 18 2008 10:45 AM A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also and Howard Johnson will be the manager of your New York Mets starring Hojos best bud david Wright.D 2010 Carlos Gomez signed by Yankees AG/DC Jun 17 2008 05:41 PM I'll take that bet. (Now I need to figure out who Carlos Lopez is.) Rockin' Doc Jun 17 2008 06:42 PM Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought. metirish Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="KC":1z7nhqrc]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:1z7nhqrc] I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean? Liked what I heard from Manuel. SNY are doing an all out bonanza with special programming , Mets in Transition , even dragged Keith in from the street. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="Grote15":hlktko6f]A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also[/quote:hlktko6f] I know this is just silliness, but I fear the stupidity in the Mets' front office. I sometimes feel like they are acutely attuned to the dumbest impulses of their fan base; who are, in turn, easily swayed by the idiot New York sports columnists and radio hosts. Wallace Matthews said something a few weeks ago about how Reyes has been more Rey Ordonez than Derek Jeter and Mike & the Mad Dog had him all but traded to Toronto for Vernon Wells and David Eckstein the other day. I know I should just ignore such lunatic morons, but I fear they can poison a portion of this town into believing something ridiculous, which could then catch the attention of the not-too-bright Wilpons. Reyes is a gift from the baseball gods. I don't know why they gave him to us, but they did. Fans might go their whole lives and only be able to root for one or two stars who shine like he does, and that's if they're lucky. A guy who runs like Hermes and throws like Apollo and plays shortstop. For the Dusty Baker types, he hustles and scraps and gets his uniform dirty. For the Billy Beane types, he gets on base and hits for power and steals at an 80% clip. He's a plus on defense, he's a plus on offense, he's a plus on the basepaths and he doesn't seem like a jerk. He's a home grown talent that we were privileged to watch grow up before our eyes, and when he's gone we'll have a Jose Reyes-shaped hole in our baseball souls. I know no sane GM would ever trade a player like him, but as I watch Scott Kazmir shoot lightning from his left hand (right now he's 2-hitting the Cubs through 4 2/3) sometimes I worry that some worm-tongue will get into a Wilpon's mind and conspire to take Reyes away from us. Like Borat once said, "Yes, I fear!" AG/DC Jun 17 2008 06:53 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 07:39 PM ="Rockin' Doc":1jslk0em]Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought.[/quote:1jslk0em] Punctuation is also apparently a luxury. What street did they find Keef on? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:06 PM irish: >>>I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean?<<< Yeah, I don't know why I even jumped to his defense ... especially here. Sometimes I forget where I'm posting and was thinking maybe jeez let's not let's jump on the guy's English when he's obviously bettering himself on that front. 'kay? OK? 'kay? -- he needs to work on that next. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:08 PM I'll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM ="KC":zwyu84pq]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:zwyu84pq] Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM irish: >>>'ll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK?<<< I don't know what you mean, I was joking. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:25 PM lunchgrabber: >>>Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing<<< I said that in the first five minutes or so. His public speaking has improved a lot, English wise. That was a long and and painful thing to listen to and watch as it evolved. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:28 PM I then saw Omar give an interview in German and I must say he has improved a great deal. Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 08:36 PM ="AG/DC":3cc9wicn]What street did they find Keef on?[/quote:3cc9wicn] Main Street in Sag Harbor most likely. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:11 AM ="AG/DC"]OK, I'll bite. What would be the purpose of trying to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages? The purpose would be to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages, I suppose. New Motto for the Mets: 'This Ain't About Love' By TIM MARCHMAN June 18, 2008 "This ain't about love," Mets general manager Omar Minaya wants you to know. "We're trying to win a championship." At a press conference in Anaheim yesterday, much of which he spent unconvincingly claiming that Mets ownership had nothing to do with the Monday night massacre that claimed the jobs of manager Willie Randolph, pitching coach Rick Peterson, and first base coach Tom Nieto, Minaya went all-in. Having to defend the indefensible � coming just past midnight Pacific time after a win on the first game of a road trip, the firings seemed timed to keep the news off the back pages of the tabloids for a day and made an instant martyr of the inept Randolph � Minaya was not content merely to say that he had assembled a team that should have won this year, but said outright that he thinks his team still can win. "I feel that we have a championship team," he said. "We have talent to do that." In the sense that any major league team has the talent to win a championship, this is true. As Minaya spoke, his team was 61/2 games behind Philadelphia for the division lead and seven behind St. Louis for the wild-card lead. At the same time a year ago, the Yankees were 81/2 games out of first place, the Chicago Cubs were 61/2 games out, and Colorado was 51/2 games behind. Those three teams all ended up playing in October; and given the circumstances, there's no need to dwell on where Philadelphia placed in the standings as of last September 12. The Mets are, in theory, far from done. To believe that the Mets have a serious chance at winning is, though, to venture far from the fields of probability and into the fields of faith � always a bad bet, given that, as the great band the Minutemen reminded us, even God bows to math. Going into last night's games, Philadelphia was 42-30, and the Mets were 34-35. Were the Phillies to play .500 ball the rest of the year, the Mets would need to go 54-39 the rest of the way to surpass them. That works out to a winning percentage of .581, a 94-win pace over the course of a full season. Certainly the Mets could play that well, just as I could be the beneficiary of a giant bag of $100 bills falling out of the sky, but over the last calendar year, the team is 85-81, and since the beginning of 2007, they're 107-100. The evidence suggests that they're slightly better than a .500 team � capable of going on a league-shredding tear, but unlikely to do so. It should be noted as well that even if they do win 58% of their games for the rest of the year, which would leave them with 88 wins, it will hardly guarantee them a playoff berth. Philadelphia is well capable of winning more than half their games over the rest of the year, and only twice has a team won the wild card with fewer than 90 wins. Any kind of independent analysis foretells a grim fate for the Mets. Baseball Prospectus calculates that the Mets have a 9% chance of winning the division; going by oddschecker.com, offshore bookmakers give them 9-2 odds. Even figuring in the wild card, the Mets have, to be generous, a one-in-five chance of making the playoffs. The problem for Mets fans is that while Minaya may be drawing to an inside straight, and facing long odds in doing so, he's pot committed: Whatever the odds of the team playing in October are, they're higher than the odds of the GM keeping his job if the team finishes out of the money. He thus has every incentive to forge bravely onward, chasing his vanishing chance of success. The Wilpon family, which owns the Mets, also has every reason to run after any fleeting shot at victory. If the team makes a miraculous comeback, it will guarantee the team millions, and perhaps tens of millions, in playoff revenue, while assuring them of still more cash in years to come as the turnstiles turn and the people tune in to Mets games on SNY. Thus, even if in some abstract sense the best thing for the team would be to shop Oliver Perez, Billy Wagner, and perhaps even Carlos Beltran for young talent, doing so would benefit no one with any stake in the game. This being the dynamic, the question is basically whether new manager Jerry Manuel might actually pull off the improbable and engineer a raging run at first. It may be a long shot, but longer shots have landed. What the Mets do have going for them is that a lot of their best players have more in them than they've given. Perez has been execrable, while John Maine has been average. Beltran and David Wright can hit better than they have to date; Pedro Martinez is healthy-ish. If all these core players just revert to their usual selves, the Mets will improve. Even Johan Santana, who's been Cy Young-worthy so far, has more in him than Mets fans have seen; the traditionally slow starter has been on fire over his last three games, and may well be on course for some preposterous stretch of a dozen straight games in which he gives up two or fewer runs. He's done it before. Conversely, there are few players who can be expected to be much worse than they've been. Jose Reyes is hitting near the top of his range, but not over his head; he can be counted on. Meanwhile, the team has treaded water with Moises Alou and Ryan Church hurt, Carlos Delgado hitting as well as Luis Castillo, a bench populated by decrepit second basemen and third-string catchers scraping unfathomed depths, and Aaron Heilman invoking fond hopes for the return of Guillermo Mota. Anything approaching health or improvement from this part of the roster will give the team a real boost. If all of this amounts to saying that the Mets will be good if lots of players who have played well play better while others who haven't played well play less badly, that's because that's what it would take for the Mets to be any good. There are short odds of any of this happening, let alone all of it, which is why the team rates as a cosmic joke, an epic botch to rate with anything we've seen out of Madison Square Garden the last several years, and why in a sensible world the whole thing would be blown up with high explosives. No secret midnight firing, no epically lame press conference, and no shameful, cowardly, Dolanish conduct on behalf of ownership can change what this team is. Their only hope is the rawest of raw luck, and not only isn't it coming, they don't deserve it. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:15 AM Front page Willie. G-Fafif Jun 18 2008 03:10 AM John Koblin in the Observer, he who captured those damning "we're too good to care" quotes last September, frames the malaise...and will quote anybody in doing so: ]But the 2008 team has been disappointing in a totally unfamiliar way. They are boring and unenthusiastic and, as far as their famously passionate fans are concerned, they don�t inspire much of any emotion at all. �This year, I just don�t care if they win or lose,� said Greg Prince, the 45-year-old co-author of the Mets blog, Faith and Fear in Flushing. �This hasn�t happened to me before. You know what really bothers me? I think for so many Mets fans, the Mets are their identity. I�m not a religious person, and I�m not a God-and-country guy. So if I�m a Mets fan, and if I don�t care if they lose, I start thinking, �Am I doing this right anymore? Am I a bad fan for not caring?�� themetfairy Jun 18 2008 05:00 AM Whoah - FAFIF is no longer our best kept secret! AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:15 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 26 2008 03:49 PM I understand Greg's position. We all wonder if we give too much to this abstract idea, and few give more than Greg. But I'm still scratching my head. I didn't want Willie fired. Others did. He's fired. What's the real issue? Did they tell him he was safe and then shoot him in the back of the head? Never in New York history? How can that be anything less than a Yankee whitewash? It sucks. I want a team that's proactive, rather than reactive. And that's what this move is. But the fan base has been calling for blood for months. The management gives them some and they turn on management? We got cleon jones bouncing in and out of threads looking for more blood. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:16 AM More Front Page Willie: Benjamin Grimm Jun 18 2008 07:25 AM This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. metirish Jun 18 2008 07:29 AM Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. ] Ratting out Randolph Were a poll to be taken Tuesday, you can rest assured that New Yorkers would be of two minds about the ownership of the New York Mets - the debate being whether to rank the Wilpons above or below the subway rat on the scale of urban vermin. It's a tough question, considering how the Wilpons and the genus Rattus norvegicus are given to slinking in the dark. Charitable types that we are, we give a slight edge to Fred and Jeff Wilpon in that the genus Jerkus gigantus does not transmit rabies, so far as anyone knows. But, damn, those Wilpons can be repulsive creatures, as New York has just seen in how they gave Willie Randolph the boot. In the middle of the night. In California. Sure, GM Omar Minaya says he made the call to fire Randolph - but do you believe for a second that the Wilpons did not okay the gutless, graceless method of execution? Whatever his managerial shortcomings, Randolph has been aces since long before he became the first African-American to manage in the city, since long before he took the field at second for the Yankees. Up from Brooklyn, Randolph unfailingly conducted himself with class. Not so the Wilpons. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better? Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 07:35 AM It's as if the writers are more pissed off at the timing, not because it was particularly cruel to Willie, but because it didn't occur at an hour convenient to them. Lots of stuff to question here but the time of day shouldn't be one of them. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:37 AM There are more than enough reasons to not buy the News. That they blow things out of proportion to sell papers is, well, not news. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:39 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"]This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. Post of the season! Couldn't agree more. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:44 AM I rarely take the Wilpon's side but this whole Midnight Massacre thing venom is, to me, an overblown NY media frenzy. Where does it say that a Manager can't get fired less than two hours after the end of a game? Or was Omar supposed to walk into the dugout and relieve Willie during the seventh inning stretch so that Willie could catch an earlier flight back to NY? Three o'clock in the morning? That's just spin. It was midnight local time and that's the only time that counts. Otherwise, I'll tell you about my cousin who was on a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic when Willie got fired . He's doubly pissed about the whole affair. Or one point seven pissed. It was five o'clock in the morning my cousin's time. The Mets weren't obligated to notify their East Coast followers of the firing before bedtime. And as far as Willie's concerned, he was wide awake at midnight local time, and would've been so whether or not he stayed. Because in the baseball universe in which Mets players and coaches exist, Willie's last game - a night game - was followed by another night game. And in that context, any Met could've decided to stay awake till six or seven in the morning and still have enough time to get a full night' sleep (assuming you want to call it a full night's sleep being that it's hypothetically beginning after sunrise) and arrive at the stadium on time for the next night game. West Coast firing? Willie was fired far from home? So what. It's an occupational risk. Firings are never pleasant. What matters is how the Mets will compete over the remainder of the season and whether Manuel is competent. All the rest is noise. Gwreck Jun 18 2008 07:48 AM ="metirish":3aij0dcp]Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better?[/quote:3aij0dcp] No. If you want better, you'll have to switch to the NY Times. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:50 AM Did everybody decide to write the same post during the last 20 minutes? Methead Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM The Dugout Chat knows how it all transpired. Transcript here[/url:twomty35] John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM This is about Madden and his hard-on for 1970s Yankees. It informs the DN's entire sports-page POV. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:00 AM I can take this from Jon Stewart, because he's bleeding with us - AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:12 AM He's not with me. He's perpetuating the myth because it makes a better story and better comedy. Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:18 AM ="AG/DC"]Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. YES, YES, YES! Why is this hard for people to see?! He was fired at 11:00ish after the game. That's when managers get fired! Arrrrgh. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:24 AM Kevin Burkhardt reported that the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time. That's still the middle of the night in my book. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:31 AM Which is around the 11 o'clock hour, is certainly not three in the morning, and is about the time a manager might get back to the hotel. If the firing is unseemly, then it's unseemly. But the method it was done seems so typically typical of an in-season firing that it's banal. Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 08:32 AM ]the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time -- That's still the middle of the night in my book. Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 08:46 AM There are a dozen Met fans here funnier than Jon Stewart. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:59 AM You're sweet. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mqm1e0q]Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that.[/quote:2mqm1e0q] Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM Not you. soupcan Jun 18 2008 09:11 AM Ouch. Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:13 AM Not me either. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 09:20 AM Well, sheesh. If you two don't count, who could he mean? There's Rogers, sure, but he's not a Met fan. seawolf17 Jun 18 2008 09:35 AM No, CF counts. Remember Latvia? themetfairy Jun 18 2008 09:41 AM ="seawolf17":35mwt1ys]No, CF counts. Remember Latvia?[/quote:35mwt1ys] Every time I hear about Latvia, I think of CF. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 06:37 PM Quotes, Comments, and Excerpts on The Midnight Massacre +1 ]Jose Reyes might just as well have spit in his new manager's face, right there on the field. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]Less than two hours after the Mets defeated the Angels on Monday night, the announcement of Randolph's firing was released to the media -- timing that Paul Lo Duca, another former Met, called "unprofessional." Chico Harlan, Washington Post ]Wright credited Randolph for helping him blossom into one of the game's best young players, but appeared eager to move on with Manuel in charge. "I'll forever be grateful for Willie for giving me the opportunity to continue my development as a young player," Wright said. "He took this team to a different level while he was here. But that being said, I'm excited about what Jerry can bring to the table." Bart Hubbuch NY Post ]That is what constitutes being a good general manager around here, taking the bullets for the boss until the day the boss steps out of the shadows and puts one in you. Minaya knows this, having seen Steve Phillips pull the same routine eight years ago, squirming uncomfortably while painting Alex Rodriguez as a "24-and-1 guy" to cover up the truth: that his boss, Fred Wilpon, didn't want to spend the money. We know how well that worked out for Phillips and we know how it will eventually work out for Minaya.... After all, for Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' cuckoo COO, time was running out.... If he didn't nip this in the bud now, the Mets might make a run and he'd never get to do what he has been aching to do since October 2006. Jeff Wilpon would never get to can the manager. There really is no other explanation for the timing of Randolph's firing�. [A] source closely connected to the heated infighting over Randolph's future told me on Monday, "Jeff has been remorseless in his desire to get rid of Willie." That desire went back to the 2006 NLCS, after which Wilpon looked back at the series - Billy Wagner blowing a key save, Aaron Heilman giving up a game-winning home run in Game 7 and Beltran staring at a season-ending 3-2 curveball with the bases loaded - and determined that Willie Randolph was the problem. "[Jeff] is a reactive young man," the source said. "He thinks he is the baseball expert, and he decided that Willie was not the guy to lead this club...." He's also the source of most of the leaks to the media recently that the manager was on thin ice, which rendered somewhat laughable Minaya's contention that questions about Randolph's job status were becoming too much of a distraction for his continued employment.... Consequently, the Mets turned an easy firing into the front-office equivalent of blowing a seven-game lead in September. Under Jeff Wilpon's expert guidance, the Mets made the Yankees' divorce from Joe Torre look like a family retirement party. Now, they hand the whole mess over to Jerry Manuel, who seems like a nice enough guy but obviously the wrong choice. Still out there is Gary Carter, who seems like a perfect fit: a confirmed backstabber and schemer who campaigned publicly for Randolph's job last month while he was still the manager. How Jeff Wilpon missed out on a soul mate like that is almost as baffling as the firing of Willie Randolph. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]NEW YORK (AP) � Willie Randolph figured the New York Mets would fire someone. He just didn't think general manager Omar Minaya would pick him. "I thought he was talking about whacking a couple of my coaches," the ex-manager told several New York-area newspapers Wednesday outside his home in Franklin Lakes, N.J. "That's why I was stunned. I didn't think it was going to happen," Randolph said. "At the time, I felt the way he was talking to me, that I was pretty secure for the time being...." "Not the way I would have handled it," he said. "Bottom line, it is what it is." Willie Randolph, Associated Press ]The five-hour long flight from Los Angeles to New York provides ample time for introspection. Especially if you�re Willie Randolph, now the former Mets manager. Dismissed from his job after the Mets beat the Los Angeles Angels on Monday in Anaheim, Randolph arrived back home in New Jersey late Tuesday, his head still swimming from being told by Mets General Manager Omar Minaya that he was no longer the manager of the Mets. In a telephone interview Tuesday night, Randolph said he remained stunned by the dismissal, which took place in Minaya�s hotel room. �I didn�t see this coming,� he said. �When I spoke to Omar the day before I knew there might be some changes, but I got the feeling I was safe.� Or at least, Randolph added, safe until the next Mets-Yankees series, which takes place the last weekend of June, or the All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium, which takes place in the middle of July. On Sunday, as the Mets split a doubleheader at Shea Stadium with the Texas Rangers, Randolph said that he asked Minaya to pull the trigger, if that�s what Minaya had in mind, and not have Randolph travel all the way across the country to Anaheim. �I actually asked him. I said, �Omar, do this now. If you�re going to do this, do this now. I know you�ve got a lot of pressure on you, but if I�m not the guy to lead this team then don�t let me get on this plane.� I did say that to him.� �I just told Willie that I want to have closure by the end of this trip,� Minaya said Wednesday when asked to respond to Randolph�s assertion that he told Minaya he did not want to get on the plane if his dismissal was imminent. The trip the Mets are now on ends Sunday in Colorado, with the Mets then returning to Shea on Monday night to play Seattle. Minaya has also stated that he was not sure what he was going to do about Randolph when he went to sleep Sunday night and that he did not make up his mind until Monday... Asked if he thought his dismissal was entirely Minaya�s idea, as the general manager is contending, Randolph said: �I have my doubts. Let�s just leave it at that. I have my doubts.� At his Tuesday news conference in Anaheim, Minaya was asked if he thought Randolph had been treated shabbily by the Mets organization. He said he did not think that was the case. But asked if he thought �shabby� was too strong a word to characterize his treatment, Randolph chuckled, and said: �That�s not strong enough.� Wiliam Rhoden, NY Times Kong76 Jun 18 2008 06:58 PM CF, Latvia ... lol, Baltic Bomber humor never gets old. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:58 PM If you made up Wallace Matthews, I'd think he was too un-realistic a character. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 23 2008 08:52 PM Fred Wilpon takes the blame[/url:5bclim2i] for how Willie's firing went down. Or not. I kinda think he is really just pointing the finger at Omar. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 27 2008 08:25 PM Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding. SteveJRogers Dec 27 2008 09:22 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":20ivi8ic]Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding.[/quote:20ivi8ic] The thing is also that the whole incident is one "card" the anti-Wilpons or anti-Met people, whether fan or media member, will use forever to deride the Mets or the Wilpons as being classless; As in "Yeah, but we've never had a guy fly 3,000 miles only to fire him at night and fly all the way back." Like the argument over the 2004 ALCS vs 7 up with 17 to play (Which seems like this board actually is the only place where 7 up with 17 to play is NOT considered the greatest collapse in the history of sports period, but that is another topic), it is one more burden that Met fans have to put up with when arguing with other fans, or people that just don't know the whole story. metirish Dec 27 2008 09:27 PM The thing is that was a fun read over. A Boy Named Seo Dec 27 2008 10:03 PM Where the hell is Roblatt? TransMonk Dec 29 2008 03:27 PM I like how the embedded Newsday cover shows today's news. Edgy DC Dec 29 2008 06:25 PM Bam! ="seawolf17"] "Well, Joe, I'm just saying I'm available. In fact, I'm actually on a flight to Anaheim right now, and I brought my big box of manager stuff." Kong76 Dec 29 2008 06:57 PM Good bump, good nomination, and good illustration of 'bucket's sig line. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 29 2008 08:27 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2u8um23g][ Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg[/quote:2u8um23g] This response didn't get enough lolove.

[Guest AG/DC]

Does he wear his Mets togs to the All-Star game or instead opt for a one-day Rockies uniform as a member of Clint Hurdle's staff?

Or does he blow it off completely?

[Benjamin Grimm]

I think he loses the assignment, unless, perhaps, he latches on as a coach with another NL team.

I bet he'll be there, in the stands, as a guest of the Steinbrenners.

[Gwreck]

He'll be replaced on the NL coaching staff by Joe Torre.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I'm having a Ramon Castro moment:

The 5 p.m. press conference: That's New York time, or Anaheim time?

[duan]

ny time.
2pm local

[Benjamin Grimm]

Cool, thanks.

I wonder if SNY will cover it. (You'd think so, but when the Mets had their Memorial Day press conference, it was on ESPN2 but not on SNY. SNY didn't want to interrupt their Beer Money marathon.)

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Olney, who ever wrote the ESPN piece, railing against leaks is a joke. "Leaks are bad...unless they're leaking to me."

If leaks are so bad, then stop using unnamed sources in your columns. It's not hard. I bet I haven't used one in one of my stories in a decade.

Count the number of times in today's stories alone that you see "a person close to the Mets thinking" or "one executive" or something along those lines.

Hell, I don't know how far I'd have to go back to find a story from Klapisch, Heyman or the like where they actually name a source.

When a source tells me they don't want their name used, I tell them to tell me someone who will go on the record and stand behind what they say, or point me where I can find the information on my own.

Usually means I have to work a little harder, and the quotes aren't as colorful. But at least people are held accountable for what they say and do.

Most of the people at my paper work the same way.

(Steps off preachy soapbox, with apologies for venting)

[nymr83]

I think that should be the rule in journalism in general.


as for this mess, i'm already over it. Manuel is the manager, who cares how willie and company got fired, let move on.

[soupcan]

="AG/DC":19ghihv5]Does he wear his Mets togs to the All-Star game or instead opt for a one-day Rockies uniform as a member of Clint Hurdle's staff?[/quote:19ghihv5] Wasn't there an All-Star manager who was fired prior to the All-Star game? I'm pretty sure there was - Dick Howser possibly? I think that that guy did not manage and his replacement was the manager of the team that was beaten in the playoffs. Am I dreaming this?

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 11:53 AM

Dusty Baker, if I remember right, managed the 2003 NL team as a Chicago Cub. Danny Murtagh came out of retirement to manage the 1972 NL team. I don't remember the Dick Howser thing, but it sounds somewhat familiar. Was he fired, or did he die before the All Star Game. (That's a bit tougher to come back from.)

AG/DC Jun 17 2008 12:00 PM

Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform. If Willie's still collecting a Met salary, I imagine he'll wear the uniform.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 12:04 PM

If I were him, I'd wear one of those generic NATIONAL LEAGUE jerseys and caps that they wear during batting practice. I'd figure, if I'm a man without a team, I might as well dress like one. I really do expect him to be swiftly returned to the embrace of the Yankees, though. Maybe even before the All Star Game.

AG/DC Jun 17 2008 12:06 PM

He could, perhaps more easily, end up on Torre's Dodger staff, and perhaps once again view himself as a potential successor.

cooby Jun 17 2008 12:07 PM

="AG/DC":iydqzyqg]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform. If Willie's still collecting a Met salary, I imagine he'll wear the uniform.[/quote:iydqzyqg] Maybe they will make him Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 12:15 PM ="AG/DC":3skwvu3k]He could, perhaps more easily, end up on Torre's Dodger staff, and perhaps once again view himself as a potential successor.[/quote:3skwvu3k] Good point! Joe should wait until Willie flies back to New York, and then summon him to LA for an interview. soupcan Jun 17 2008 12:52 PM ="AG/DC":159as6ki]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:159as6ki] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:34 PM Adam Rubin is perhaps the first to get quotes. Willie Randolph says he's stung, and Rick Peterson compares it to a trip to Home Depot: ]Blindsided Willie Randolph says he was 'really stung' by firing By ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Tuesday, June 17th 2008, 1:44 PM Willie Randolph says he was 'surprised' and 'stung' by early-morning firing. COSTA MESA, Calif. - Willie Randolph suggested he was blindsided by his firing early this morning, saying in brief comments as he left the Westin South Coast Plaza hotel today that he had no inkling of his imminent firing when he left Angel Stadium after Monday night's victory. "I don't have much to say, really," Randolph said roughly nine hours after he was fired by GM Omar Minaya. "I'm just very disappointed that I'm not going to be able to fulfill what my dream is, which is to come here and help this team win a world championship. I'm just going to miss my players. To the fans, I'm really sorry that I wasn't able to fulfill what I really said I wanted to do here - get this team to a world championship. That's what I've always been about. It's very, very difficult right now, but I'm ready to move on." Asked shortly before 2 p.m. EDT what was next for him, Randolph said: "Just go home and enjoy my family." Randolph, who seemed subdued but unshaken, insisted he had no clue as he left the stadium Monday. "No, no," he said. "I was really stung by it. I was surprised." Pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto, who also were fired, left the hotel just before Randolph. "I came here five years ago. Fred and Jeff (Wilpon) gave me a wonderful opportunity," Peterson said. "I left Oakland to come here and be with my kids on the East Coast, and it's been wonderful. I appreciated the opportunity and they welcomed me into their home. Homes go through renovations. Sometimes you have to make changes when things don't go that well. I'm part of that change. I totally understand that. I grew up in the baseball business. I'm the hardwood floor that's getting ripped out. And they're going to bring in the Tuscany tile. And it will be great." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:37 PM And this, from the Rocky Mountain News, appears to answer the All Star Game question: ]Hurdle likely will find All-Star sub for Randolph By Jack Etkin, Rocky Mountain News Originally published 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 Updated 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 National League manager Clint Hurdle of the Rockies likely will add another coach to his All-Star staff after the New York Mets' firing of Willie Randolph early Tuesday. Hurdle had asked Randolph and San Diego manager Bud Black to be on his coaching staff for the July 15 All-Star Game in the final season at Yankee Stadium. Randolph grew up in Brooklyn, played and coached for the Yankees and managed the Mets. "It�s Clint�s decision, but he will talk with us before he extends an invitation to someone," said Katy Feeney, senior vice president of scheduling and club relations for Major League Baseball. "But since this just happened, we�d like to be able to think about it for a day or two." Feeney said she had not spoken with Hurdle but had discussed the situation with Jay Alves, the Rockies' vice president of communications and public relations. Feeney said she wanted to talk with Randolph but "would let him take a breath and get home." He was fired shortly after midnight PDT Tuesday in Anaheim, Calif., where the Mets had opened a western trip with a 9-6 victory over the Los Angeles Angels. That six-game trip concludes with three games at Coors Field, beginning Friday. Asked whether it was possible Randolph would remain on Hurdle�s staff even though he was not working, Feeney said, "I seriously doubt that would happen." Feeney said this is the first instance of a manager who was scheduled to be an All-Star coach being fired before the game. She cited two recent examples of managers who were All-Star coaches being fired soon after the game. Houston manager Jimy Williams was a National League coach when the game was played at Houston�s Minute Maid Park in 2004. The Astros fired Williams the day after the game. Two days after the 2002 All-Star Game in Milwaukee, the Cleveland Indians fired manager Charlie Manuel, who had been an American League coach. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 01:39 PM Well, Rick's lost his mind. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:43 PM Peterson as philosophical as ever . John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 01:44 PM Reached for comment as he arrived at the hotel, Dan Warthen refuted Peterson's allegations. "I'm more of a tibetan throw rug." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:45 PM Well, right now the pitching coach has a choice of two nicknames: "Tuscany Tile" or "Wart Hen." Most likely, neither will stick (only Valadius knows for sure) but I think I'd lean towards Tuscany Tile if I were him. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM Well Dan Warthen really made a mess of things , asked at the hotel how he was going to fix the bullpen he said that would only take a few minutes , Jay Horowitz was seen shaking his head as he ushered him away. SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM ="soupcan":jwyzhyig] ="AG/DC":jwyzhyig]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Cubs didn't knock the Giants out of the playoffs though. Methead Jun 17 2008 01:53 PM Unfortunately for Peterson, now he's more like the guy who stretches the little chain across the aisle to block it off while another guy uses a forklift to take something off a really high shelf. cooby Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM ="soupcan":1g82r3bd] ="AG/DC":1g82r3bd]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Maybe because both names make you hungry Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM I got the above articles after doing a Google News search on "Willie Randolph." I just now refreshed the results page, and the Mets are just plain getting ripped all over the place, pretty much universally, for their handling of this. Words I'm seeing include "vicious," "gutless," "evil,", "classless," and "dysfunctional." I really do wonder who thought it was a good idea to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time? Why couldn't they have called a 9 a.m. (Pacific Time) press conference? Sure, maybe something would have leaked in the early hours today (perhaps when it was discovered that Oberkfell and Warthen were en route) but that wouldn't have been so bad at all. Not compared to the shitstorm they've kicked off. How could they not have known? I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:00 PM I wonder if that Lennon fellow has a perch at the airport to spy on the Mets, too? metirish Jun 17 2008 02:02 PM Yeah I thought Fred and Jeff were very image conscious yet they let this shit happen , is Horowitz responsible for this? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:05 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1k2k7ea6] I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here.[/quote:1k2k7ea6] If you criticize everything the Mets ever do you are bound to be right eventually Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Namor makes a good point. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 02:17 PM If they fired them last night, they needed to issue the press release last night, or else Willie or Peterson or �ieto can break the story. Maybe I have Castro's Disease, but isn't 3 AM midnight out there. And isn't that pretty much what time you'd expect after a 7:05 West Coast start goes 3:10 and then they talk to the victims at the hotel so as not to do it in front of their troops. I didn't like the Willie hiring. I don't like the firing or how it was done, but I think too much is being made of the last. How many were crying for the Mets to axe him or state outright that his job was safe? So they did. There's no way to do this that isn't ugly. Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM i'm fine with it. Manuel's Mets. Tonight. 10:05 PM. I'm ready. metirish Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM Excellent points there edgy , especially regarding the time difference. PatchyFogg Jun 17 2008 02:21 PM I'm not so sure that the timing of the firing was to avoid Father's Day, as much as it was to avoid being the 2nd Mets blunder on a June 15th. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:23 PM Hey Patchy! Long time/no time! (Or however that goes...) Do you really think that firing Willie was a "blunder"? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Six minutes to Omar ... this should be, um, er ...well it'll be something. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 02:58 PM Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan? SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 02:59 PM ="Frayed Knot":36fy43x9]Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan?[/quote:36fy43x9] HA! Good question, does anyone know what team she was a Lovin' Big Shot for before 2005? But now she doesn't know people, BIG people! Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:00 PM ="cooby"]Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? So they can listen on WFAN maybe? I'm sure Mike and Dawg will be covering it. (I'm more sure that they'll have it than that SNY will.) Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM c: >>>Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars?<<< I read on Don Jennon's blog that it was so people had to listen on the radio and not watch on the tv. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM SNY is covering it, on Daily News Live. Omar will be standing in front of an Angels podium, with an Angels backdrop. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:02 PM 40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 03:04 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1x5ho6d8]40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement?[/quote:1x5ho6d8] that WAS his written statement, if not there would have been 60-70% "ums" and "uhs" Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:06 PM Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM Although I'd prefer ask to ax. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM I think so too. But today he appears drunk. He's repeating himself like crazy. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:09 PM Probably didn't get much sleep. This is pointless if they can't mic up the questions from the gallery better. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:17 PM "I can tell you that, yes, Jerry Manuel will be the manager for the rest of the year." Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Questions directed to Manuel seem to be a lot more audible on SNY than the one's that Omar fielded. G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Alomar no longer third base coach, but bench coach. Hallelujah! John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 03:54 PM Jerry: Almost as good as Omar's been bad so far! Kong76 Jun 17 2008 04:00 PM Yeah, I like him so far. First words out of him were something like, "Adam, my brother, wazzzup?" G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 04:01 PM Wow, it's like listening to a baseball man, not a politician. Jay Horwitz had to have wished he brought one of those hooks from vaudeville listening to Omar. But Manuel's a godsend. If he manages like he talks, we might not suck nearly as much. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 04:57 PM I agree. I'm very encouraged so far. Of course, we're all rooting for him to do so well that he's invited back, but now that feeling is stronger. Grote15 Jun 17 2008 05:18 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 18 2008 10:45 AM A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also and Howard Johnson will be the manager of your New York Mets starring Hojos best bud david Wright.D 2010 Carlos Gomez signed by Yankees AG/DC Jun 17 2008 05:41 PM I'll take that bet. (Now I need to figure out who Carlos Lopez is.) Rockin' Doc Jun 17 2008 06:42 PM Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought. metirish Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="KC":1z7nhqrc]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:1z7nhqrc] I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean? Liked what I heard from Manuel. SNY are doing an all out bonanza with special programming , Mets in Transition , even dragged Keith in from the street. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="Grote15":hlktko6f]A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also[/quote:hlktko6f] I know this is just silliness, but I fear the stupidity in the Mets' front office. I sometimes feel like they are acutely attuned to the dumbest impulses of their fan base; who are, in turn, easily swayed by the idiot New York sports columnists and radio hosts. Wallace Matthews said something a few weeks ago about how Reyes has been more Rey Ordonez than Derek Jeter and Mike & the Mad Dog had him all but traded to Toronto for Vernon Wells and David Eckstein the other day. I know I should just ignore such lunatic morons, but I fear they can poison a portion of this town into believing something ridiculous, which could then catch the attention of the not-too-bright Wilpons. Reyes is a gift from the baseball gods. I don't know why they gave him to us, but they did. Fans might go their whole lives and only be able to root for one or two stars who shine like he does, and that's if they're lucky. A guy who runs like Hermes and throws like Apollo and plays shortstop. For the Dusty Baker types, he hustles and scraps and gets his uniform dirty. For the Billy Beane types, he gets on base and hits for power and steals at an 80% clip. He's a plus on defense, he's a plus on offense, he's a plus on the basepaths and he doesn't seem like a jerk. He's a home grown talent that we were privileged to watch grow up before our eyes, and when he's gone we'll have a Jose Reyes-shaped hole in our baseball souls. I know no sane GM would ever trade a player like him, but as I watch Scott Kazmir shoot lightning from his left hand (right now he's 2-hitting the Cubs through 4 2/3) sometimes I worry that some worm-tongue will get into a Wilpon's mind and conspire to take Reyes away from us. Like Borat once said, "Yes, I fear!" AG/DC Jun 17 2008 06:53 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 07:39 PM ="Rockin' Doc":1jslk0em]Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought.[/quote:1jslk0em] Punctuation is also apparently a luxury. What street did they find Keef on? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:06 PM irish: >>>I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean?<<< Yeah, I don't know why I even jumped to his defense ... especially here. Sometimes I forget where I'm posting and was thinking maybe jeez let's not let's jump on the guy's English when he's obviously bettering himself on that front. 'kay? OK? 'kay? -- he needs to work on that next. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:08 PM I'll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM ="KC":zwyu84pq]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:zwyu84pq] Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM irish: >>>'ll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK?<<< I don't know what you mean, I was joking. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:25 PM lunchgrabber: >>>Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing<<< I said that in the first five minutes or so. His public speaking has improved a lot, English wise. That was a long and and painful thing to listen to and watch as it evolved. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:28 PM I then saw Omar give an interview in German and I must say he has improved a great deal. Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 08:36 PM ="AG/DC":3cc9wicn]What street did they find Keef on?[/quote:3cc9wicn] Main Street in Sag Harbor most likely. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:11 AM ="AG/DC"]OK, I'll bite. What would be the purpose of trying to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages? The purpose would be to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages, I suppose. New Motto for the Mets: 'This Ain't About Love' By TIM MARCHMAN June 18, 2008 "This ain't about love," Mets general manager Omar Minaya wants you to know. "We're trying to win a championship." At a press conference in Anaheim yesterday, much of which he spent unconvincingly claiming that Mets ownership had nothing to do with the Monday night massacre that claimed the jobs of manager Willie Randolph, pitching coach Rick Peterson, and first base coach Tom Nieto, Minaya went all-in. Having to defend the indefensible � coming just past midnight Pacific time after a win on the first game of a road trip, the firings seemed timed to keep the news off the back pages of the tabloids for a day and made an instant martyr of the inept Randolph � Minaya was not content merely to say that he had assembled a team that should have won this year, but said outright that he thinks his team still can win. "I feel that we have a championship team," he said. "We have talent to do that." In the sense that any major league team has the talent to win a championship, this is true. As Minaya spoke, his team was 61/2 games behind Philadelphia for the division lead and seven behind St. Louis for the wild-card lead. At the same time a year ago, the Yankees were 81/2 games out of first place, the Chicago Cubs were 61/2 games out, and Colorado was 51/2 games behind. Those three teams all ended up playing in October; and given the circumstances, there's no need to dwell on where Philadelphia placed in the standings as of last September 12. The Mets are, in theory, far from done. To believe that the Mets have a serious chance at winning is, though, to venture far from the fields of probability and into the fields of faith � always a bad bet, given that, as the great band the Minutemen reminded us, even God bows to math. Going into last night's games, Philadelphia was 42-30, and the Mets were 34-35. Were the Phillies to play .500 ball the rest of the year, the Mets would need to go 54-39 the rest of the way to surpass them. That works out to a winning percentage of .581, a 94-win pace over the course of a full season. Certainly the Mets could play that well, just as I could be the beneficiary of a giant bag of $100 bills falling out of the sky, but over the last calendar year, the team is 85-81, and since the beginning of 2007, they're 107-100. The evidence suggests that they're slightly better than a .500 team � capable of going on a league-shredding tear, but unlikely to do so. It should be noted as well that even if they do win 58% of their games for the rest of the year, which would leave them with 88 wins, it will hardly guarantee them a playoff berth. Philadelphia is well capable of winning more than half their games over the rest of the year, and only twice has a team won the wild card with fewer than 90 wins. Any kind of independent analysis foretells a grim fate for the Mets. Baseball Prospectus calculates that the Mets have a 9% chance of winning the division; going by oddschecker.com, offshore bookmakers give them 9-2 odds. Even figuring in the wild card, the Mets have, to be generous, a one-in-five chance of making the playoffs. The problem for Mets fans is that while Minaya may be drawing to an inside straight, and facing long odds in doing so, he's pot committed: Whatever the odds of the team playing in October are, they're higher than the odds of the GM keeping his job if the team finishes out of the money. He thus has every incentive to forge bravely onward, chasing his vanishing chance of success. The Wilpon family, which owns the Mets, also has every reason to run after any fleeting shot at victory. If the team makes a miraculous comeback, it will guarantee the team millions, and perhaps tens of millions, in playoff revenue, while assuring them of still more cash in years to come as the turnstiles turn and the people tune in to Mets games on SNY. Thus, even if in some abstract sense the best thing for the team would be to shop Oliver Perez, Billy Wagner, and perhaps even Carlos Beltran for young talent, doing so would benefit no one with any stake in the game. This being the dynamic, the question is basically whether new manager Jerry Manuel might actually pull off the improbable and engineer a raging run at first. It may be a long shot, but longer shots have landed. What the Mets do have going for them is that a lot of their best players have more in them than they've given. Perez has been execrable, while John Maine has been average. Beltran and David Wright can hit better than they have to date; Pedro Martinez is healthy-ish. If all these core players just revert to their usual selves, the Mets will improve. Even Johan Santana, who's been Cy Young-worthy so far, has more in him than Mets fans have seen; the traditionally slow starter has been on fire over his last three games, and may well be on course for some preposterous stretch of a dozen straight games in which he gives up two or fewer runs. He's done it before. Conversely, there are few players who can be expected to be much worse than they've been. Jose Reyes is hitting near the top of his range, but not over his head; he can be counted on. Meanwhile, the team has treaded water with Moises Alou and Ryan Church hurt, Carlos Delgado hitting as well as Luis Castillo, a bench populated by decrepit second basemen and third-string catchers scraping unfathomed depths, and Aaron Heilman invoking fond hopes for the return of Guillermo Mota. Anything approaching health or improvement from this part of the roster will give the team a real boost. If all of this amounts to saying that the Mets will be good if lots of players who have played well play better while others who haven't played well play less badly, that's because that's what it would take for the Mets to be any good. There are short odds of any of this happening, let alone all of it, which is why the team rates as a cosmic joke, an epic botch to rate with anything we've seen out of Madison Square Garden the last several years, and why in a sensible world the whole thing would be blown up with high explosives. No secret midnight firing, no epically lame press conference, and no shameful, cowardly, Dolanish conduct on behalf of ownership can change what this team is. Their only hope is the rawest of raw luck, and not only isn't it coming, they don't deserve it. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:15 AM Front page Willie. G-Fafif Jun 18 2008 03:10 AM John Koblin in the Observer, he who captured those damning "we're too good to care" quotes last September, frames the malaise...and will quote anybody in doing so: ]But the 2008 team has been disappointing in a totally unfamiliar way. They are boring and unenthusiastic and, as far as their famously passionate fans are concerned, they don�t inspire much of any emotion at all. �This year, I just don�t care if they win or lose,� said Greg Prince, the 45-year-old co-author of the Mets blog, Faith and Fear in Flushing. �This hasn�t happened to me before. You know what really bothers me? I think for so many Mets fans, the Mets are their identity. I�m not a religious person, and I�m not a God-and-country guy. So if I�m a Mets fan, and if I don�t care if they lose, I start thinking, �Am I doing this right anymore? Am I a bad fan for not caring?�� themetfairy Jun 18 2008 05:00 AM Whoah - FAFIF is no longer our best kept secret! AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:15 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 26 2008 03:49 PM I understand Greg's position. We all wonder if we give too much to this abstract idea, and few give more than Greg. But I'm still scratching my head. I didn't want Willie fired. Others did. He's fired. What's the real issue? Did they tell him he was safe and then shoot him in the back of the head? Never in New York history? How can that be anything less than a Yankee whitewash? It sucks. I want a team that's proactive, rather than reactive. And that's what this move is. But the fan base has been calling for blood for months. The management gives them some and they turn on management? We got cleon jones bouncing in and out of threads looking for more blood. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:16 AM More Front Page Willie: Benjamin Grimm Jun 18 2008 07:25 AM This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. metirish Jun 18 2008 07:29 AM Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. ] Ratting out Randolph Were a poll to be taken Tuesday, you can rest assured that New Yorkers would be of two minds about the ownership of the New York Mets - the debate being whether to rank the Wilpons above or below the subway rat on the scale of urban vermin. It's a tough question, considering how the Wilpons and the genus Rattus norvegicus are given to slinking in the dark. Charitable types that we are, we give a slight edge to Fred and Jeff Wilpon in that the genus Jerkus gigantus does not transmit rabies, so far as anyone knows. But, damn, those Wilpons can be repulsive creatures, as New York has just seen in how they gave Willie Randolph the boot. In the middle of the night. In California. Sure, GM Omar Minaya says he made the call to fire Randolph - but do you believe for a second that the Wilpons did not okay the gutless, graceless method of execution? Whatever his managerial shortcomings, Randolph has been aces since long before he became the first African-American to manage in the city, since long before he took the field at second for the Yankees. Up from Brooklyn, Randolph unfailingly conducted himself with class. Not so the Wilpons. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better? Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 07:35 AM It's as if the writers are more pissed off at the timing, not because it was particularly cruel to Willie, but because it didn't occur at an hour convenient to them. Lots of stuff to question here but the time of day shouldn't be one of them. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:37 AM There are more than enough reasons to not buy the News. That they blow things out of proportion to sell papers is, well, not news. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:39 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"]This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. Post of the season! Couldn't agree more. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:44 AM I rarely take the Wilpon's side but this whole Midnight Massacre thing venom is, to me, an overblown NY media frenzy. Where does it say that a Manager can't get fired less than two hours after the end of a game? Or was Omar supposed to walk into the dugout and relieve Willie during the seventh inning stretch so that Willie could catch an earlier flight back to NY? Three o'clock in the morning? That's just spin. It was midnight local time and that's the only time that counts. Otherwise, I'll tell you about my cousin who was on a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic when Willie got fired . He's doubly pissed about the whole affair. Or one point seven pissed. It was five o'clock in the morning my cousin's time. The Mets weren't obligated to notify their East Coast followers of the firing before bedtime. And as far as Willie's concerned, he was wide awake at midnight local time, and would've been so whether or not he stayed. Because in the baseball universe in which Mets players and coaches exist, Willie's last game - a night game - was followed by another night game. And in that context, any Met could've decided to stay awake till six or seven in the morning and still have enough time to get a full night' sleep (assuming you want to call it a full night's sleep being that it's hypothetically beginning after sunrise) and arrive at the stadium on time for the next night game. West Coast firing? Willie was fired far from home? So what. It's an occupational risk. Firings are never pleasant. What matters is how the Mets will compete over the remainder of the season and whether Manuel is competent. All the rest is noise. Gwreck Jun 18 2008 07:48 AM ="metirish":3aij0dcp]Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better?[/quote:3aij0dcp] No. If you want better, you'll have to switch to the NY Times. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:50 AM Did everybody decide to write the same post during the last 20 minutes? Methead Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM The Dugout Chat knows how it all transpired. Transcript here[/url:twomty35] John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM This is about Madden and his hard-on for 1970s Yankees. It informs the DN's entire sports-page POV. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:00 AM I can take this from Jon Stewart, because he's bleeding with us - AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:12 AM He's not with me. He's perpetuating the myth because it makes a better story and better comedy. Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:18 AM ="AG/DC"]Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. YES, YES, YES! Why is this hard for people to see?! He was fired at 11:00ish after the game. That's when managers get fired! Arrrrgh. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:24 AM Kevin Burkhardt reported that the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time. That's still the middle of the night in my book. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:31 AM Which is around the 11 o'clock hour, is certainly not three in the morning, and is about the time a manager might get back to the hotel. If the firing is unseemly, then it's unseemly. But the method it was done seems so typically typical of an in-season firing that it's banal. Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 08:32 AM ]the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time -- That's still the middle of the night in my book. Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 08:46 AM There are a dozen Met fans here funnier than Jon Stewart. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:59 AM You're sweet. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mqm1e0q]Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that.[/quote:2mqm1e0q] Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM Not you. soupcan Jun 18 2008 09:11 AM Ouch. Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:13 AM Not me either. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 09:20 AM Well, sheesh. If you two don't count, who could he mean? There's Rogers, sure, but he's not a Met fan. seawolf17 Jun 18 2008 09:35 AM No, CF counts. Remember Latvia? themetfairy Jun 18 2008 09:41 AM ="seawolf17":35mwt1ys]No, CF counts. Remember Latvia?[/quote:35mwt1ys] Every time I hear about Latvia, I think of CF. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 06:37 PM Quotes, Comments, and Excerpts on The Midnight Massacre +1 ]Jose Reyes might just as well have spit in his new manager's face, right there on the field. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]Less than two hours after the Mets defeated the Angels on Monday night, the announcement of Randolph's firing was released to the media -- timing that Paul Lo Duca, another former Met, called "unprofessional." Chico Harlan, Washington Post ]Wright credited Randolph for helping him blossom into one of the game's best young players, but appeared eager to move on with Manuel in charge. "I'll forever be grateful for Willie for giving me the opportunity to continue my development as a young player," Wright said. "He took this team to a different level while he was here. But that being said, I'm excited about what Jerry can bring to the table." Bart Hubbuch NY Post ]That is what constitutes being a good general manager around here, taking the bullets for the boss until the day the boss steps out of the shadows and puts one in you. Minaya knows this, having seen Steve Phillips pull the same routine eight years ago, squirming uncomfortably while painting Alex Rodriguez as a "24-and-1 guy" to cover up the truth: that his boss, Fred Wilpon, didn't want to spend the money. We know how well that worked out for Phillips and we know how it will eventually work out for Minaya.... After all, for Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' cuckoo COO, time was running out.... If he didn't nip this in the bud now, the Mets might make a run and he'd never get to do what he has been aching to do since October 2006. Jeff Wilpon would never get to can the manager. There really is no other explanation for the timing of Randolph's firing�. [A] source closely connected to the heated infighting over Randolph's future told me on Monday, "Jeff has been remorseless in his desire to get rid of Willie." That desire went back to the 2006 NLCS, after which Wilpon looked back at the series - Billy Wagner blowing a key save, Aaron Heilman giving up a game-winning home run in Game 7 and Beltran staring at a season-ending 3-2 curveball with the bases loaded - and determined that Willie Randolph was the problem. "[Jeff] is a reactive young man," the source said. "He thinks he is the baseball expert, and he decided that Willie was not the guy to lead this club...." He's also the source of most of the leaks to the media recently that the manager was on thin ice, which rendered somewhat laughable Minaya's contention that questions about Randolph's job status were becoming too much of a distraction for his continued employment.... Consequently, the Mets turned an easy firing into the front-office equivalent of blowing a seven-game lead in September. Under Jeff Wilpon's expert guidance, the Mets made the Yankees' divorce from Joe Torre look like a family retirement party. Now, they hand the whole mess over to Jerry Manuel, who seems like a nice enough guy but obviously the wrong choice. Still out there is Gary Carter, who seems like a perfect fit: a confirmed backstabber and schemer who campaigned publicly for Randolph's job last month while he was still the manager. How Jeff Wilpon missed out on a soul mate like that is almost as baffling as the firing of Willie Randolph. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]NEW YORK (AP) � Willie Randolph figured the New York Mets would fire someone. He just didn't think general manager Omar Minaya would pick him. "I thought he was talking about whacking a couple of my coaches," the ex-manager told several New York-area newspapers Wednesday outside his home in Franklin Lakes, N.J. "That's why I was stunned. I didn't think it was going to happen," Randolph said. "At the time, I felt the way he was talking to me, that I was pretty secure for the time being...." "Not the way I would have handled it," he said. "Bottom line, it is what it is." Willie Randolph, Associated Press ]The five-hour long flight from Los Angeles to New York provides ample time for introspection. Especially if you�re Willie Randolph, now the former Mets manager. Dismissed from his job after the Mets beat the Los Angeles Angels on Monday in Anaheim, Randolph arrived back home in New Jersey late Tuesday, his head still swimming from being told by Mets General Manager Omar Minaya that he was no longer the manager of the Mets. In a telephone interview Tuesday night, Randolph said he remained stunned by the dismissal, which took place in Minaya�s hotel room. �I didn�t see this coming,� he said. �When I spoke to Omar the day before I knew there might be some changes, but I got the feeling I was safe.� Or at least, Randolph added, safe until the next Mets-Yankees series, which takes place the last weekend of June, or the All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium, which takes place in the middle of July. On Sunday, as the Mets split a doubleheader at Shea Stadium with the Texas Rangers, Randolph said that he asked Minaya to pull the trigger, if that�s what Minaya had in mind, and not have Randolph travel all the way across the country to Anaheim. �I actually asked him. I said, �Omar, do this now. If you�re going to do this, do this now. I know you�ve got a lot of pressure on you, but if I�m not the guy to lead this team then don�t let me get on this plane.� I did say that to him.� �I just told Willie that I want to have closure by the end of this trip,� Minaya said Wednesday when asked to respond to Randolph�s assertion that he told Minaya he did not want to get on the plane if his dismissal was imminent. The trip the Mets are now on ends Sunday in Colorado, with the Mets then returning to Shea on Monday night to play Seattle. Minaya has also stated that he was not sure what he was going to do about Randolph when he went to sleep Sunday night and that he did not make up his mind until Monday... Asked if he thought his dismissal was entirely Minaya�s idea, as the general manager is contending, Randolph said: �I have my doubts. Let�s just leave it at that. I have my doubts.� At his Tuesday news conference in Anaheim, Minaya was asked if he thought Randolph had been treated shabbily by the Mets organization. He said he did not think that was the case. But asked if he thought �shabby� was too strong a word to characterize his treatment, Randolph chuckled, and said: �That�s not strong enough.� Wiliam Rhoden, NY Times Kong76 Jun 18 2008 06:58 PM CF, Latvia ... lol, Baltic Bomber humor never gets old. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:58 PM If you made up Wallace Matthews, I'd think he was too un-realistic a character. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 23 2008 08:52 PM Fred Wilpon takes the blame[/url:5bclim2i] for how Willie's firing went down. Or not. I kinda think he is really just pointing the finger at Omar. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 27 2008 08:25 PM Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding. SteveJRogers Dec 27 2008 09:22 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":20ivi8ic]Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding.[/quote:20ivi8ic] The thing is also that the whole incident is one "card" the anti-Wilpons or anti-Met people, whether fan or media member, will use forever to deride the Mets or the Wilpons as being classless; As in "Yeah, but we've never had a guy fly 3,000 miles only to fire him at night and fly all the way back." Like the argument over the 2004 ALCS vs 7 up with 17 to play (Which seems like this board actually is the only place where 7 up with 17 to play is NOT considered the greatest collapse in the history of sports period, but that is another topic), it is one more burden that Met fans have to put up with when arguing with other fans, or people that just don't know the whole story. metirish Dec 27 2008 09:27 PM The thing is that was a fun read over. A Boy Named Seo Dec 27 2008 10:03 PM Where the hell is Roblatt? TransMonk Dec 29 2008 03:27 PM I like how the embedded Newsday cover shows today's news. Edgy DC Dec 29 2008 06:25 PM Bam! ="seawolf17"] "Well, Joe, I'm just saying I'm available. In fact, I'm actually on a flight to Anaheim right now, and I brought my big box of manager stuff." Kong76 Dec 29 2008 06:57 PM Good bump, good nomination, and good illustration of 'bucket's sig line. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 29 2008 08:27 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2u8um23g][ Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg[/quote:2u8um23g] This response didn't get enough lolove.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Dusty Baker, if I remember right, managed the 2003 NL team as a Chicago Cub.

Danny Murtagh came out of retirement to manage the 1972 NL team.

I don't remember the Dick Howser thing, but it sounds somewhat familiar. Was he fired, or did he die before the All Star Game. (That's a bit tougher to come back from.)

[Guest AG/DC]

Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.

If Willie's still collecting a Met salary, I imagine he'll wear the uniform.

[Benjamin Grimm]

If I were him, I'd wear one of those generic NATIONAL LEAGUE jerseys and caps that they wear during batting practice.

I'd figure, if I'm a man without a team, I might as well dress like one.

I really do expect him to be swiftly returned to the embrace of the Yankees, though. Maybe even before the All Star Game.

[Guest AG/DC]

He could, perhaps more easily, end up on Torre's Dodger staff, and perhaps once again view himself as a potential successor.

[Guest cooby]

="AG/DC":iydqzyqg]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform. If Willie's still collecting a Met salary, I imagine he'll wear the uniform.[/quote:iydqzyqg] Maybe they will make him

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 12:15 PM

="AG/DC":3skwvu3k]He could, perhaps more easily, end up on Torre's Dodger staff, and perhaps once again view himself as a potential successor.[/quote:3skwvu3k] Good point! Joe should wait until Willie flies back to New York, and then summon him to LA for an interview. soupcan Jun 17 2008 12:52 PM ="AG/DC":159as6ki]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:159as6ki] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:34 PM Adam Rubin is perhaps the first to get quotes. Willie Randolph says he's stung, and Rick Peterson compares it to a trip to Home Depot: ]Blindsided Willie Randolph says he was 'really stung' by firing By ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Tuesday, June 17th 2008, 1:44 PM Willie Randolph says he was 'surprised' and 'stung' by early-morning firing. COSTA MESA, Calif. - Willie Randolph suggested he was blindsided by his firing early this morning, saying in brief comments as he left the Westin South Coast Plaza hotel today that he had no inkling of his imminent firing when he left Angel Stadium after Monday night's victory. "I don't have much to say, really," Randolph said roughly nine hours after he was fired by GM Omar Minaya. "I'm just very disappointed that I'm not going to be able to fulfill what my dream is, which is to come here and help this team win a world championship. I'm just going to miss my players. To the fans, I'm really sorry that I wasn't able to fulfill what I really said I wanted to do here - get this team to a world championship. That's what I've always been about. It's very, very difficult right now, but I'm ready to move on." Asked shortly before 2 p.m. EDT what was next for him, Randolph said: "Just go home and enjoy my family." Randolph, who seemed subdued but unshaken, insisted he had no clue as he left the stadium Monday. "No, no," he said. "I was really stung by it. I was surprised." Pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto, who also were fired, left the hotel just before Randolph. "I came here five years ago. Fred and Jeff (Wilpon) gave me a wonderful opportunity," Peterson said. "I left Oakland to come here and be with my kids on the East Coast, and it's been wonderful. I appreciated the opportunity and they welcomed me into their home. Homes go through renovations. Sometimes you have to make changes when things don't go that well. I'm part of that change. I totally understand that. I grew up in the baseball business. I'm the hardwood floor that's getting ripped out. And they're going to bring in the Tuscany tile. And it will be great." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:37 PM And this, from the Rocky Mountain News, appears to answer the All Star Game question: ]Hurdle likely will find All-Star sub for Randolph By Jack Etkin, Rocky Mountain News Originally published 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 Updated 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 National League manager Clint Hurdle of the Rockies likely will add another coach to his All-Star staff after the New York Mets' firing of Willie Randolph early Tuesday. Hurdle had asked Randolph and San Diego manager Bud Black to be on his coaching staff for the July 15 All-Star Game in the final season at Yankee Stadium. Randolph grew up in Brooklyn, played and coached for the Yankees and managed the Mets. "It�s Clint�s decision, but he will talk with us before he extends an invitation to someone," said Katy Feeney, senior vice president of scheduling and club relations for Major League Baseball. "But since this just happened, we�d like to be able to think about it for a day or two." Feeney said she had not spoken with Hurdle but had discussed the situation with Jay Alves, the Rockies' vice president of communications and public relations. Feeney said she wanted to talk with Randolph but "would let him take a breath and get home." He was fired shortly after midnight PDT Tuesday in Anaheim, Calif., where the Mets had opened a western trip with a 9-6 victory over the Los Angeles Angels. That six-game trip concludes with three games at Coors Field, beginning Friday. Asked whether it was possible Randolph would remain on Hurdle�s staff even though he was not working, Feeney said, "I seriously doubt that would happen." Feeney said this is the first instance of a manager who was scheduled to be an All-Star coach being fired before the game. She cited two recent examples of managers who were All-Star coaches being fired soon after the game. Houston manager Jimy Williams was a National League coach when the game was played at Houston�s Minute Maid Park in 2004. The Astros fired Williams the day after the game. Two days after the 2002 All-Star Game in Milwaukee, the Cleveland Indians fired manager Charlie Manuel, who had been an American League coach. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 01:39 PM Well, Rick's lost his mind. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:43 PM Peterson as philosophical as ever . John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 01:44 PM Reached for comment as he arrived at the hotel, Dan Warthen refuted Peterson's allegations. "I'm more of a tibetan throw rug." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:45 PM Well, right now the pitching coach has a choice of two nicknames: "Tuscany Tile" or "Wart Hen." Most likely, neither will stick (only Valadius knows for sure) but I think I'd lean towards Tuscany Tile if I were him. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM Well Dan Warthen really made a mess of things , asked at the hotel how he was going to fix the bullpen he said that would only take a few minutes , Jay Horowitz was seen shaking his head as he ushered him away. SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM ="soupcan":jwyzhyig] ="AG/DC":jwyzhyig]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Cubs didn't knock the Giants out of the playoffs though. Methead Jun 17 2008 01:53 PM Unfortunately for Peterson, now he's more like the guy who stretches the little chain across the aisle to block it off while another guy uses a forklift to take something off a really high shelf. cooby Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM ="soupcan":1g82r3bd] ="AG/DC":1g82r3bd]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Maybe because both names make you hungry Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM I got the above articles after doing a Google News search on "Willie Randolph." I just now refreshed the results page, and the Mets are just plain getting ripped all over the place, pretty much universally, for their handling of this. Words I'm seeing include "vicious," "gutless," "evil,", "classless," and "dysfunctional." I really do wonder who thought it was a good idea to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time? Why couldn't they have called a 9 a.m. (Pacific Time) press conference? Sure, maybe something would have leaked in the early hours today (perhaps when it was discovered that Oberkfell and Warthen were en route) but that wouldn't have been so bad at all. Not compared to the shitstorm they've kicked off. How could they not have known? I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:00 PM I wonder if that Lennon fellow has a perch at the airport to spy on the Mets, too? metirish Jun 17 2008 02:02 PM Yeah I thought Fred and Jeff were very image conscious yet they let this shit happen , is Horowitz responsible for this? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:05 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1k2k7ea6] I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here.[/quote:1k2k7ea6] If you criticize everything the Mets ever do you are bound to be right eventually Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Namor makes a good point. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 02:17 PM If they fired them last night, they needed to issue the press release last night, or else Willie or Peterson or �ieto can break the story. Maybe I have Castro's Disease, but isn't 3 AM midnight out there. And isn't that pretty much what time you'd expect after a 7:05 West Coast start goes 3:10 and then they talk to the victims at the hotel so as not to do it in front of their troops. I didn't like the Willie hiring. I don't like the firing or how it was done, but I think too much is being made of the last. How many were crying for the Mets to axe him or state outright that his job was safe? So they did. There's no way to do this that isn't ugly. Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM i'm fine with it. Manuel's Mets. Tonight. 10:05 PM. I'm ready. metirish Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM Excellent points there edgy , especially regarding the time difference. PatchyFogg Jun 17 2008 02:21 PM I'm not so sure that the timing of the firing was to avoid Father's Day, as much as it was to avoid being the 2nd Mets blunder on a June 15th. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:23 PM Hey Patchy! Long time/no time! (Or however that goes...) Do you really think that firing Willie was a "blunder"? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Six minutes to Omar ... this should be, um, er ...well it'll be something. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 02:58 PM Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan? SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 02:59 PM ="Frayed Knot":36fy43x9]Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan?[/quote:36fy43x9] HA! Good question, does anyone know what team she was a Lovin' Big Shot for before 2005? But now she doesn't know people, BIG people! Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:00 PM ="cooby"]Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? So they can listen on WFAN maybe? I'm sure Mike and Dawg will be covering it. (I'm more sure that they'll have it than that SNY will.) Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM c: >>>Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars?<<< I read on Don Jennon's blog that it was so people had to listen on the radio and not watch on the tv. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM SNY is covering it, on Daily News Live. Omar will be standing in front of an Angels podium, with an Angels backdrop. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:02 PM 40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 03:04 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1x5ho6d8]40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement?[/quote:1x5ho6d8] that WAS his written statement, if not there would have been 60-70% "ums" and "uhs" Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:06 PM Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM Although I'd prefer ask to ax. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM I think so too. But today he appears drunk. He's repeating himself like crazy. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:09 PM Probably didn't get much sleep. This is pointless if they can't mic up the questions from the gallery better. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:17 PM "I can tell you that, yes, Jerry Manuel will be the manager for the rest of the year." Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Questions directed to Manuel seem to be a lot more audible on SNY than the one's that Omar fielded. G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Alomar no longer third base coach, but bench coach. Hallelujah! John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 03:54 PM Jerry: Almost as good as Omar's been bad so far! Kong76 Jun 17 2008 04:00 PM Yeah, I like him so far. First words out of him were something like, "Adam, my brother, wazzzup?" G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 04:01 PM Wow, it's like listening to a baseball man, not a politician. Jay Horwitz had to have wished he brought one of those hooks from vaudeville listening to Omar. But Manuel's a godsend. If he manages like he talks, we might not suck nearly as much. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 04:57 PM I agree. I'm very encouraged so far. Of course, we're all rooting for him to do so well that he's invited back, but now that feeling is stronger. Grote15 Jun 17 2008 05:18 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 18 2008 10:45 AM A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also and Howard Johnson will be the manager of your New York Mets starring Hojos best bud david Wright.D 2010 Carlos Gomez signed by Yankees AG/DC Jun 17 2008 05:41 PM I'll take that bet. (Now I need to figure out who Carlos Lopez is.) Rockin' Doc Jun 17 2008 06:42 PM Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought. metirish Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="KC":1z7nhqrc]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:1z7nhqrc] I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean? Liked what I heard from Manuel. SNY are doing an all out bonanza with special programming , Mets in Transition , even dragged Keith in from the street. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="Grote15":hlktko6f]A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also[/quote:hlktko6f] I know this is just silliness, but I fear the stupidity in the Mets' front office. I sometimes feel like they are acutely attuned to the dumbest impulses of their fan base; who are, in turn, easily swayed by the idiot New York sports columnists and radio hosts. Wallace Matthews said something a few weeks ago about how Reyes has been more Rey Ordonez than Derek Jeter and Mike & the Mad Dog had him all but traded to Toronto for Vernon Wells and David Eckstein the other day. I know I should just ignore such lunatic morons, but I fear they can poison a portion of this town into believing something ridiculous, which could then catch the attention of the not-too-bright Wilpons. Reyes is a gift from the baseball gods. I don't know why they gave him to us, but they did. Fans might go their whole lives and only be able to root for one or two stars who shine like he does, and that's if they're lucky. A guy who runs like Hermes and throws like Apollo and plays shortstop. For the Dusty Baker types, he hustles and scraps and gets his uniform dirty. For the Billy Beane types, he gets on base and hits for power and steals at an 80% clip. He's a plus on defense, he's a plus on offense, he's a plus on the basepaths and he doesn't seem like a jerk. He's a home grown talent that we were privileged to watch grow up before our eyes, and when he's gone we'll have a Jose Reyes-shaped hole in our baseball souls. I know no sane GM would ever trade a player like him, but as I watch Scott Kazmir shoot lightning from his left hand (right now he's 2-hitting the Cubs through 4 2/3) sometimes I worry that some worm-tongue will get into a Wilpon's mind and conspire to take Reyes away from us. Like Borat once said, "Yes, I fear!" AG/DC Jun 17 2008 06:53 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 07:39 PM ="Rockin' Doc":1jslk0em]Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought.[/quote:1jslk0em] Punctuation is also apparently a luxury. What street did they find Keef on? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:06 PM irish: >>>I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean?<<< Yeah, I don't know why I even jumped to his defense ... especially here. Sometimes I forget where I'm posting and was thinking maybe jeez let's not let's jump on the guy's English when he's obviously bettering himself on that front. 'kay? OK? 'kay? -- he needs to work on that next. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:08 PM I'll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM ="KC":zwyu84pq]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:zwyu84pq] Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM irish: >>>'ll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK?<<< I don't know what you mean, I was joking. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:25 PM lunchgrabber: >>>Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing<<< I said that in the first five minutes or so. His public speaking has improved a lot, English wise. That was a long and and painful thing to listen to and watch as it evolved. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:28 PM I then saw Omar give an interview in German and I must say he has improved a great deal. Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 08:36 PM ="AG/DC":3cc9wicn]What street did they find Keef on?[/quote:3cc9wicn] Main Street in Sag Harbor most likely. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:11 AM ="AG/DC"]OK, I'll bite. What would be the purpose of trying to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages? The purpose would be to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages, I suppose. New Motto for the Mets: 'This Ain't About Love' By TIM MARCHMAN June 18, 2008 "This ain't about love," Mets general manager Omar Minaya wants you to know. "We're trying to win a championship." At a press conference in Anaheim yesterday, much of which he spent unconvincingly claiming that Mets ownership had nothing to do with the Monday night massacre that claimed the jobs of manager Willie Randolph, pitching coach Rick Peterson, and first base coach Tom Nieto, Minaya went all-in. Having to defend the indefensible � coming just past midnight Pacific time after a win on the first game of a road trip, the firings seemed timed to keep the news off the back pages of the tabloids for a day and made an instant martyr of the inept Randolph � Minaya was not content merely to say that he had assembled a team that should have won this year, but said outright that he thinks his team still can win. "I feel that we have a championship team," he said. "We have talent to do that." In the sense that any major league team has the talent to win a championship, this is true. As Minaya spoke, his team was 61/2 games behind Philadelphia for the division lead and seven behind St. Louis for the wild-card lead. At the same time a year ago, the Yankees were 81/2 games out of first place, the Chicago Cubs were 61/2 games out, and Colorado was 51/2 games behind. Those three teams all ended up playing in October; and given the circumstances, there's no need to dwell on where Philadelphia placed in the standings as of last September 12. The Mets are, in theory, far from done. To believe that the Mets have a serious chance at winning is, though, to venture far from the fields of probability and into the fields of faith � always a bad bet, given that, as the great band the Minutemen reminded us, even God bows to math. Going into last night's games, Philadelphia was 42-30, and the Mets were 34-35. Were the Phillies to play .500 ball the rest of the year, the Mets would need to go 54-39 the rest of the way to surpass them. That works out to a winning percentage of .581, a 94-win pace over the course of a full season. Certainly the Mets could play that well, just as I could be the beneficiary of a giant bag of $100 bills falling out of the sky, but over the last calendar year, the team is 85-81, and since the beginning of 2007, they're 107-100. The evidence suggests that they're slightly better than a .500 team � capable of going on a league-shredding tear, but unlikely to do so. It should be noted as well that even if they do win 58% of their games for the rest of the year, which would leave them with 88 wins, it will hardly guarantee them a playoff berth. Philadelphia is well capable of winning more than half their games over the rest of the year, and only twice has a team won the wild card with fewer than 90 wins. Any kind of independent analysis foretells a grim fate for the Mets. Baseball Prospectus calculates that the Mets have a 9% chance of winning the division; going by oddschecker.com, offshore bookmakers give them 9-2 odds. Even figuring in the wild card, the Mets have, to be generous, a one-in-five chance of making the playoffs. The problem for Mets fans is that while Minaya may be drawing to an inside straight, and facing long odds in doing so, he's pot committed: Whatever the odds of the team playing in October are, they're higher than the odds of the GM keeping his job if the team finishes out of the money. He thus has every incentive to forge bravely onward, chasing his vanishing chance of success. The Wilpon family, which owns the Mets, also has every reason to run after any fleeting shot at victory. If the team makes a miraculous comeback, it will guarantee the team millions, and perhaps tens of millions, in playoff revenue, while assuring them of still more cash in years to come as the turnstiles turn and the people tune in to Mets games on SNY. Thus, even if in some abstract sense the best thing for the team would be to shop Oliver Perez, Billy Wagner, and perhaps even Carlos Beltran for young talent, doing so would benefit no one with any stake in the game. This being the dynamic, the question is basically whether new manager Jerry Manuel might actually pull off the improbable and engineer a raging run at first. It may be a long shot, but longer shots have landed. What the Mets do have going for them is that a lot of their best players have more in them than they've given. Perez has been execrable, while John Maine has been average. Beltran and David Wright can hit better than they have to date; Pedro Martinez is healthy-ish. If all these core players just revert to their usual selves, the Mets will improve. Even Johan Santana, who's been Cy Young-worthy so far, has more in him than Mets fans have seen; the traditionally slow starter has been on fire over his last three games, and may well be on course for some preposterous stretch of a dozen straight games in which he gives up two or fewer runs. He's done it before. Conversely, there are few players who can be expected to be much worse than they've been. Jose Reyes is hitting near the top of his range, but not over his head; he can be counted on. Meanwhile, the team has treaded water with Moises Alou and Ryan Church hurt, Carlos Delgado hitting as well as Luis Castillo, a bench populated by decrepit second basemen and third-string catchers scraping unfathomed depths, and Aaron Heilman invoking fond hopes for the return of Guillermo Mota. Anything approaching health or improvement from this part of the roster will give the team a real boost. If all of this amounts to saying that the Mets will be good if lots of players who have played well play better while others who haven't played well play less badly, that's because that's what it would take for the Mets to be any good. There are short odds of any of this happening, let alone all of it, which is why the team rates as a cosmic joke, an epic botch to rate with anything we've seen out of Madison Square Garden the last several years, and why in a sensible world the whole thing would be blown up with high explosives. No secret midnight firing, no epically lame press conference, and no shameful, cowardly, Dolanish conduct on behalf of ownership can change what this team is. Their only hope is the rawest of raw luck, and not only isn't it coming, they don't deserve it. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:15 AM Front page Willie. G-Fafif Jun 18 2008 03:10 AM John Koblin in the Observer, he who captured those damning "we're too good to care" quotes last September, frames the malaise...and will quote anybody in doing so: ]But the 2008 team has been disappointing in a totally unfamiliar way. They are boring and unenthusiastic and, as far as their famously passionate fans are concerned, they don�t inspire much of any emotion at all. �This year, I just don�t care if they win or lose,� said Greg Prince, the 45-year-old co-author of the Mets blog, Faith and Fear in Flushing. �This hasn�t happened to me before. You know what really bothers me? I think for so many Mets fans, the Mets are their identity. I�m not a religious person, and I�m not a God-and-country guy. So if I�m a Mets fan, and if I don�t care if they lose, I start thinking, �Am I doing this right anymore? Am I a bad fan for not caring?�� themetfairy Jun 18 2008 05:00 AM Whoah - FAFIF is no longer our best kept secret! AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:15 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 26 2008 03:49 PM I understand Greg's position. We all wonder if we give too much to this abstract idea, and few give more than Greg. But I'm still scratching my head. I didn't want Willie fired. Others did. He's fired. What's the real issue? Did they tell him he was safe and then shoot him in the back of the head? Never in New York history? How can that be anything less than a Yankee whitewash? It sucks. I want a team that's proactive, rather than reactive. And that's what this move is. But the fan base has been calling for blood for months. The management gives them some and they turn on management? We got cleon jones bouncing in and out of threads looking for more blood. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:16 AM More Front Page Willie: Benjamin Grimm Jun 18 2008 07:25 AM This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. metirish Jun 18 2008 07:29 AM Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. ] Ratting out Randolph Were a poll to be taken Tuesday, you can rest assured that New Yorkers would be of two minds about the ownership of the New York Mets - the debate being whether to rank the Wilpons above or below the subway rat on the scale of urban vermin. It's a tough question, considering how the Wilpons and the genus Rattus norvegicus are given to slinking in the dark. Charitable types that we are, we give a slight edge to Fred and Jeff Wilpon in that the genus Jerkus gigantus does not transmit rabies, so far as anyone knows. But, damn, those Wilpons can be repulsive creatures, as New York has just seen in how they gave Willie Randolph the boot. In the middle of the night. In California. Sure, GM Omar Minaya says he made the call to fire Randolph - but do you believe for a second that the Wilpons did not okay the gutless, graceless method of execution? Whatever his managerial shortcomings, Randolph has been aces since long before he became the first African-American to manage in the city, since long before he took the field at second for the Yankees. Up from Brooklyn, Randolph unfailingly conducted himself with class. Not so the Wilpons. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better? Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 07:35 AM It's as if the writers are more pissed off at the timing, not because it was particularly cruel to Willie, but because it didn't occur at an hour convenient to them. Lots of stuff to question here but the time of day shouldn't be one of them. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:37 AM There are more than enough reasons to not buy the News. That they blow things out of proportion to sell papers is, well, not news. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:39 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"]This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. Post of the season! Couldn't agree more. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:44 AM I rarely take the Wilpon's side but this whole Midnight Massacre thing venom is, to me, an overblown NY media frenzy. Where does it say that a Manager can't get fired less than two hours after the end of a game? Or was Omar supposed to walk into the dugout and relieve Willie during the seventh inning stretch so that Willie could catch an earlier flight back to NY? Three o'clock in the morning? That's just spin. It was midnight local time and that's the only time that counts. Otherwise, I'll tell you about my cousin who was on a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic when Willie got fired . He's doubly pissed about the whole affair. Or one point seven pissed. It was five o'clock in the morning my cousin's time. The Mets weren't obligated to notify their East Coast followers of the firing before bedtime. And as far as Willie's concerned, he was wide awake at midnight local time, and would've been so whether or not he stayed. Because in the baseball universe in which Mets players and coaches exist, Willie's last game - a night game - was followed by another night game. And in that context, any Met could've decided to stay awake till six or seven in the morning and still have enough time to get a full night' sleep (assuming you want to call it a full night's sleep being that it's hypothetically beginning after sunrise) and arrive at the stadium on time for the next night game. West Coast firing? Willie was fired far from home? So what. It's an occupational risk. Firings are never pleasant. What matters is how the Mets will compete over the remainder of the season and whether Manuel is competent. All the rest is noise. Gwreck Jun 18 2008 07:48 AM ="metirish":3aij0dcp]Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better?[/quote:3aij0dcp] No. If you want better, you'll have to switch to the NY Times. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:50 AM Did everybody decide to write the same post during the last 20 minutes? Methead Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM The Dugout Chat knows how it all transpired. Transcript here[/url:twomty35] John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM This is about Madden and his hard-on for 1970s Yankees. It informs the DN's entire sports-page POV. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:00 AM I can take this from Jon Stewart, because he's bleeding with us - AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:12 AM He's not with me. He's perpetuating the myth because it makes a better story and better comedy. Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:18 AM ="AG/DC"]Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. YES, YES, YES! Why is this hard for people to see?! He was fired at 11:00ish after the game. That's when managers get fired! Arrrrgh. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:24 AM Kevin Burkhardt reported that the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time. That's still the middle of the night in my book. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:31 AM Which is around the 11 o'clock hour, is certainly not three in the morning, and is about the time a manager might get back to the hotel. If the firing is unseemly, then it's unseemly. But the method it was done seems so typically typical of an in-season firing that it's banal. Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 08:32 AM ]the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time -- That's still the middle of the night in my book. Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 08:46 AM There are a dozen Met fans here funnier than Jon Stewart. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:59 AM You're sweet. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mqm1e0q]Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that.[/quote:2mqm1e0q] Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM Not you. soupcan Jun 18 2008 09:11 AM Ouch. Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:13 AM Not me either. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 09:20 AM Well, sheesh. If you two don't count, who could he mean? There's Rogers, sure, but he's not a Met fan. seawolf17 Jun 18 2008 09:35 AM No, CF counts. Remember Latvia? themetfairy Jun 18 2008 09:41 AM ="seawolf17":35mwt1ys]No, CF counts. Remember Latvia?[/quote:35mwt1ys] Every time I hear about Latvia, I think of CF. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 06:37 PM Quotes, Comments, and Excerpts on The Midnight Massacre +1 ]Jose Reyes might just as well have spit in his new manager's face, right there on the field. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]Less than two hours after the Mets defeated the Angels on Monday night, the announcement of Randolph's firing was released to the media -- timing that Paul Lo Duca, another former Met, called "unprofessional." Chico Harlan, Washington Post ]Wright credited Randolph for helping him blossom into one of the game's best young players, but appeared eager to move on with Manuel in charge. "I'll forever be grateful for Willie for giving me the opportunity to continue my development as a young player," Wright said. "He took this team to a different level while he was here. But that being said, I'm excited about what Jerry can bring to the table." Bart Hubbuch NY Post ]That is what constitutes being a good general manager around here, taking the bullets for the boss until the day the boss steps out of the shadows and puts one in you. Minaya knows this, having seen Steve Phillips pull the same routine eight years ago, squirming uncomfortably while painting Alex Rodriguez as a "24-and-1 guy" to cover up the truth: that his boss, Fred Wilpon, didn't want to spend the money. We know how well that worked out for Phillips and we know how it will eventually work out for Minaya.... After all, for Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' cuckoo COO, time was running out.... If he didn't nip this in the bud now, the Mets might make a run and he'd never get to do what he has been aching to do since October 2006. Jeff Wilpon would never get to can the manager. There really is no other explanation for the timing of Randolph's firing�. [A] source closely connected to the heated infighting over Randolph's future told me on Monday, "Jeff has been remorseless in his desire to get rid of Willie." That desire went back to the 2006 NLCS, after which Wilpon looked back at the series - Billy Wagner blowing a key save, Aaron Heilman giving up a game-winning home run in Game 7 and Beltran staring at a season-ending 3-2 curveball with the bases loaded - and determined that Willie Randolph was the problem. "[Jeff] is a reactive young man," the source said. "He thinks he is the baseball expert, and he decided that Willie was not the guy to lead this club...." He's also the source of most of the leaks to the media recently that the manager was on thin ice, which rendered somewhat laughable Minaya's contention that questions about Randolph's job status were becoming too much of a distraction for his continued employment.... Consequently, the Mets turned an easy firing into the front-office equivalent of blowing a seven-game lead in September. Under Jeff Wilpon's expert guidance, the Mets made the Yankees' divorce from Joe Torre look like a family retirement party. Now, they hand the whole mess over to Jerry Manuel, who seems like a nice enough guy but obviously the wrong choice. Still out there is Gary Carter, who seems like a perfect fit: a confirmed backstabber and schemer who campaigned publicly for Randolph's job last month while he was still the manager. How Jeff Wilpon missed out on a soul mate like that is almost as baffling as the firing of Willie Randolph. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]NEW YORK (AP) � Willie Randolph figured the New York Mets would fire someone. He just didn't think general manager Omar Minaya would pick him. "I thought he was talking about whacking a couple of my coaches," the ex-manager told several New York-area newspapers Wednesday outside his home in Franklin Lakes, N.J. "That's why I was stunned. I didn't think it was going to happen," Randolph said. "At the time, I felt the way he was talking to me, that I was pretty secure for the time being...." "Not the way I would have handled it," he said. "Bottom line, it is what it is." Willie Randolph, Associated Press ]The five-hour long flight from Los Angeles to New York provides ample time for introspection. Especially if you�re Willie Randolph, now the former Mets manager. Dismissed from his job after the Mets beat the Los Angeles Angels on Monday in Anaheim, Randolph arrived back home in New Jersey late Tuesday, his head still swimming from being told by Mets General Manager Omar Minaya that he was no longer the manager of the Mets. In a telephone interview Tuesday night, Randolph said he remained stunned by the dismissal, which took place in Minaya�s hotel room. �I didn�t see this coming,� he said. �When I spoke to Omar the day before I knew there might be some changes, but I got the feeling I was safe.� Or at least, Randolph added, safe until the next Mets-Yankees series, which takes place the last weekend of June, or the All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium, which takes place in the middle of July. On Sunday, as the Mets split a doubleheader at Shea Stadium with the Texas Rangers, Randolph said that he asked Minaya to pull the trigger, if that�s what Minaya had in mind, and not have Randolph travel all the way across the country to Anaheim. �I actually asked him. I said, �Omar, do this now. If you�re going to do this, do this now. I know you�ve got a lot of pressure on you, but if I�m not the guy to lead this team then don�t let me get on this plane.� I did say that to him.� �I just told Willie that I want to have closure by the end of this trip,� Minaya said Wednesday when asked to respond to Randolph�s assertion that he told Minaya he did not want to get on the plane if his dismissal was imminent. The trip the Mets are now on ends Sunday in Colorado, with the Mets then returning to Shea on Monday night to play Seattle. Minaya has also stated that he was not sure what he was going to do about Randolph when he went to sleep Sunday night and that he did not make up his mind until Monday... Asked if he thought his dismissal was entirely Minaya�s idea, as the general manager is contending, Randolph said: �I have my doubts. Let�s just leave it at that. I have my doubts.� At his Tuesday news conference in Anaheim, Minaya was asked if he thought Randolph had been treated shabbily by the Mets organization. He said he did not think that was the case. But asked if he thought �shabby� was too strong a word to characterize his treatment, Randolph chuckled, and said: �That�s not strong enough.� Wiliam Rhoden, NY Times Kong76 Jun 18 2008 06:58 PM CF, Latvia ... lol, Baltic Bomber humor never gets old. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:58 PM If you made up Wallace Matthews, I'd think he was too un-realistic a character. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 23 2008 08:52 PM Fred Wilpon takes the blame[/url:5bclim2i] for how Willie's firing went down. Or not. I kinda think he is really just pointing the finger at Omar. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 27 2008 08:25 PM Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding. SteveJRogers Dec 27 2008 09:22 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":20ivi8ic]Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding.[/quote:20ivi8ic] The thing is also that the whole incident is one "card" the anti-Wilpons or anti-Met people, whether fan or media member, will use forever to deride the Mets or the Wilpons as being classless; As in "Yeah, but we've never had a guy fly 3,000 miles only to fire him at night and fly all the way back." Like the argument over the 2004 ALCS vs 7 up with 17 to play (Which seems like this board actually is the only place where 7 up with 17 to play is NOT considered the greatest collapse in the history of sports period, but that is another topic), it is one more burden that Met fans have to put up with when arguing with other fans, or people that just don't know the whole story. metirish Dec 27 2008 09:27 PM The thing is that was a fun read over. A Boy Named Seo Dec 27 2008 10:03 PM Where the hell is Roblatt? TransMonk Dec 29 2008 03:27 PM I like how the embedded Newsday cover shows today's news. Edgy DC Dec 29 2008 06:25 PM Bam! ="seawolf17"] "Well, Joe, I'm just saying I'm available. In fact, I'm actually on a flight to Anaheim right now, and I brought my big box of manager stuff." Kong76 Dec 29 2008 06:57 PM Good bump, good nomination, and good illustration of 'bucket's sig line. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 29 2008 08:27 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2u8um23g][ Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg[/quote:2u8um23g] This response didn't get enough lolove.

[Benjamin Grimm]

="AG/DC":3skwvu3k]He could, perhaps more easily, end up on Torre's Dodger staff, and perhaps once again view himself as a potential successor.[/quote:3skwvu3k] Good point! Joe should wait until Willie flies back to New York, and then summon him to LA for an interview.

soupcan Jun 17 2008 12:52 PM

="AG/DC":159as6ki]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:159as6ki] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:34 PM Adam Rubin is perhaps the first to get quotes. Willie Randolph says he's stung, and Rick Peterson compares it to a trip to Home Depot: ]Blindsided Willie Randolph says he was 'really stung' by firing By ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Tuesday, June 17th 2008, 1:44 PM Willie Randolph says he was 'surprised' and 'stung' by early-morning firing. COSTA MESA, Calif. - Willie Randolph suggested he was blindsided by his firing early this morning, saying in brief comments as he left the Westin South Coast Plaza hotel today that he had no inkling of his imminent firing when he left Angel Stadium after Monday night's victory. "I don't have much to say, really," Randolph said roughly nine hours after he was fired by GM Omar Minaya. "I'm just very disappointed that I'm not going to be able to fulfill what my dream is, which is to come here and help this team win a world championship. I'm just going to miss my players. To the fans, I'm really sorry that I wasn't able to fulfill what I really said I wanted to do here - get this team to a world championship. That's what I've always been about. It's very, very difficult right now, but I'm ready to move on." Asked shortly before 2 p.m. EDT what was next for him, Randolph said: "Just go home and enjoy my family." Randolph, who seemed subdued but unshaken, insisted he had no clue as he left the stadium Monday. "No, no," he said. "I was really stung by it. I was surprised." Pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto, who also were fired, left the hotel just before Randolph. "I came here five years ago. Fred and Jeff (Wilpon) gave me a wonderful opportunity," Peterson said. "I left Oakland to come here and be with my kids on the East Coast, and it's been wonderful. I appreciated the opportunity and they welcomed me into their home. Homes go through renovations. Sometimes you have to make changes when things don't go that well. I'm part of that change. I totally understand that. I grew up in the baseball business. I'm the hardwood floor that's getting ripped out. And they're going to bring in the Tuscany tile. And it will be great." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:37 PM And this, from the Rocky Mountain News, appears to answer the All Star Game question: ]Hurdle likely will find All-Star sub for Randolph By Jack Etkin, Rocky Mountain News Originally published 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 Updated 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 National League manager Clint Hurdle of the Rockies likely will add another coach to his All-Star staff after the New York Mets' firing of Willie Randolph early Tuesday. Hurdle had asked Randolph and San Diego manager Bud Black to be on his coaching staff for the July 15 All-Star Game in the final season at Yankee Stadium. Randolph grew up in Brooklyn, played and coached for the Yankees and managed the Mets. "It�s Clint�s decision, but he will talk with us before he extends an invitation to someone," said Katy Feeney, senior vice president of scheduling and club relations for Major League Baseball. "But since this just happened, we�d like to be able to think about it for a day or two." Feeney said she had not spoken with Hurdle but had discussed the situation with Jay Alves, the Rockies' vice president of communications and public relations. Feeney said she wanted to talk with Randolph but "would let him take a breath and get home." He was fired shortly after midnight PDT Tuesday in Anaheim, Calif., where the Mets had opened a western trip with a 9-6 victory over the Los Angeles Angels. That six-game trip concludes with three games at Coors Field, beginning Friday. Asked whether it was possible Randolph would remain on Hurdle�s staff even though he was not working, Feeney said, "I seriously doubt that would happen." Feeney said this is the first instance of a manager who was scheduled to be an All-Star coach being fired before the game. She cited two recent examples of managers who were All-Star coaches being fired soon after the game. Houston manager Jimy Williams was a National League coach when the game was played at Houston�s Minute Maid Park in 2004. The Astros fired Williams the day after the game. Two days after the 2002 All-Star Game in Milwaukee, the Cleveland Indians fired manager Charlie Manuel, who had been an American League coach. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 01:39 PM Well, Rick's lost his mind. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:43 PM Peterson as philosophical as ever . John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 01:44 PM Reached for comment as he arrived at the hotel, Dan Warthen refuted Peterson's allegations. "I'm more of a tibetan throw rug." Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:45 PM Well, right now the pitching coach has a choice of two nicknames: "Tuscany Tile" or "Wart Hen." Most likely, neither will stick (only Valadius knows for sure) but I think I'd lean towards Tuscany Tile if I were him. metirish Jun 17 2008 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM Well Dan Warthen really made a mess of things , asked at the hotel how he was going to fix the bullpen he said that would only take a few minutes , Jay Horowitz was seen shaking his head as he ushered him away. SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM ="soupcan":jwyzhyig] ="AG/DC":jwyzhyig]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Cubs didn't knock the Giants out of the playoffs though. Methead Jun 17 2008 01:53 PM Unfortunately for Peterson, now he's more like the guy who stretches the little chain across the aisle to block it off while another guy uses a forklift to take something off a really high shelf. cooby Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM ="soupcan":1g82r3bd] ="AG/DC":1g82r3bd]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Maybe because both names make you hungry Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM I got the above articles after doing a Google News search on "Willie Randolph." I just now refreshed the results page, and the Mets are just plain getting ripped all over the place, pretty much universally, for their handling of this. Words I'm seeing include "vicious," "gutless," "evil,", "classless," and "dysfunctional." I really do wonder who thought it was a good idea to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time? Why couldn't they have called a 9 a.m. (Pacific Time) press conference? Sure, maybe something would have leaked in the early hours today (perhaps when it was discovered that Oberkfell and Warthen were en route) but that wouldn't have been so bad at all. Not compared to the shitstorm they've kicked off. How could they not have known? I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:00 PM I wonder if that Lennon fellow has a perch at the airport to spy on the Mets, too? metirish Jun 17 2008 02:02 PM Yeah I thought Fred and Jeff were very image conscious yet they let this shit happen , is Horowitz responsible for this? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:05 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1k2k7ea6] I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here.[/quote:1k2k7ea6] If you criticize everything the Mets ever do you are bound to be right eventually Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Namor makes a good point. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 02:17 PM If they fired them last night, they needed to issue the press release last night, or else Willie or Peterson or �ieto can break the story. Maybe I have Castro's Disease, but isn't 3 AM midnight out there. And isn't that pretty much what time you'd expect after a 7:05 West Coast start goes 3:10 and then they talk to the victims at the hotel so as not to do it in front of their troops. I didn't like the Willie hiring. I don't like the firing or how it was done, but I think too much is being made of the last. How many were crying for the Mets to axe him or state outright that his job was safe? So they did. There's no way to do this that isn't ugly. Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM i'm fine with it. Manuel's Mets. Tonight. 10:05 PM. I'm ready. metirish Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM Excellent points there edgy , especially regarding the time difference. PatchyFogg Jun 17 2008 02:21 PM I'm not so sure that the timing of the firing was to avoid Father's Day, as much as it was to avoid being the 2nd Mets blunder on a June 15th. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:23 PM Hey Patchy! Long time/no time! (Or however that goes...) Do you really think that firing Willie was a "blunder"? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Six minutes to Omar ... this should be, um, er ...well it'll be something. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 02:58 PM Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan? SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 02:59 PM ="Frayed Knot":36fy43x9]Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan?[/quote:36fy43x9] HA! Good question, does anyone know what team she was a Lovin' Big Shot for before 2005? But now she doesn't know people, BIG people! Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:00 PM ="cooby"]Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? So they can listen on WFAN maybe? I'm sure Mike and Dawg will be covering it. (I'm more sure that they'll have it than that SNY will.) Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM c: >>>Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars?<<< I read on Don Jennon's blog that it was so people had to listen on the radio and not watch on the tv. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM SNY is covering it, on Daily News Live. Omar will be standing in front of an Angels podium, with an Angels backdrop. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:02 PM 40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 03:04 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1x5ho6d8]40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement?[/quote:1x5ho6d8] that WAS his written statement, if not there would have been 60-70% "ums" and "uhs" Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:06 PM Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM Although I'd prefer ask to ax. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM I think so too. But today he appears drunk. He's repeating himself like crazy. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:09 PM Probably didn't get much sleep. This is pointless if they can't mic up the questions from the gallery better. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:17 PM "I can tell you that, yes, Jerry Manuel will be the manager for the rest of the year." Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Questions directed to Manuel seem to be a lot more audible on SNY than the one's that Omar fielded. G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Alomar no longer third base coach, but bench coach. Hallelujah! John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 03:54 PM Jerry: Almost as good as Omar's been bad so far! Kong76 Jun 17 2008 04:00 PM Yeah, I like him so far. First words out of him were something like, "Adam, my brother, wazzzup?" G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 04:01 PM Wow, it's like listening to a baseball man, not a politician. Jay Horwitz had to have wished he brought one of those hooks from vaudeville listening to Omar. But Manuel's a godsend. If he manages like he talks, we might not suck nearly as much. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 04:57 PM I agree. I'm very encouraged so far. Of course, we're all rooting for him to do so well that he's invited back, but now that feeling is stronger. Grote15 Jun 17 2008 05:18 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 18 2008 10:45 AM A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also and Howard Johnson will be the manager of your New York Mets starring Hojos best bud david Wright.D 2010 Carlos Gomez signed by Yankees AG/DC Jun 17 2008 05:41 PM I'll take that bet. (Now I need to figure out who Carlos Lopez is.) Rockin' Doc Jun 17 2008 06:42 PM Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought. metirish Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="KC":1z7nhqrc]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:1z7nhqrc] I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean? Liked what I heard from Manuel. SNY are doing an all out bonanza with special programming , Mets in Transition , even dragged Keith in from the street. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="Grote15":hlktko6f]A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also[/quote:hlktko6f] I know this is just silliness, but I fear the stupidity in the Mets' front office. I sometimes feel like they are acutely attuned to the dumbest impulses of their fan base; who are, in turn, easily swayed by the idiot New York sports columnists and radio hosts. Wallace Matthews said something a few weeks ago about how Reyes has been more Rey Ordonez than Derek Jeter and Mike & the Mad Dog had him all but traded to Toronto for Vernon Wells and David Eckstein the other day. I know I should just ignore such lunatic morons, but I fear they can poison a portion of this town into believing something ridiculous, which could then catch the attention of the not-too-bright Wilpons. Reyes is a gift from the baseball gods. I don't know why they gave him to us, but they did. Fans might go their whole lives and only be able to root for one or two stars who shine like he does, and that's if they're lucky. A guy who runs like Hermes and throws like Apollo and plays shortstop. For the Dusty Baker types, he hustles and scraps and gets his uniform dirty. For the Billy Beane types, he gets on base and hits for power and steals at an 80% clip. He's a plus on defense, he's a plus on offense, he's a plus on the basepaths and he doesn't seem like a jerk. He's a home grown talent that we were privileged to watch grow up before our eyes, and when he's gone we'll have a Jose Reyes-shaped hole in our baseball souls. I know no sane GM would ever trade a player like him, but as I watch Scott Kazmir shoot lightning from his left hand (right now he's 2-hitting the Cubs through 4 2/3) sometimes I worry that some worm-tongue will get into a Wilpon's mind and conspire to take Reyes away from us. Like Borat once said, "Yes, I fear!" AG/DC Jun 17 2008 06:53 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 07:39 PM ="Rockin' Doc":1jslk0em]Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought.[/quote:1jslk0em] Punctuation is also apparently a luxury. What street did they find Keef on? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:06 PM irish: >>>I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean?<<< Yeah, I don't know why I even jumped to his defense ... especially here. Sometimes I forget where I'm posting and was thinking maybe jeez let's not let's jump on the guy's English when he's obviously bettering himself on that front. 'kay? OK? 'kay? -- he needs to work on that next. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:08 PM I'll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM ="KC":zwyu84pq]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:zwyu84pq] Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM irish: >>>'ll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK?<<< I don't know what you mean, I was joking. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:25 PM lunchgrabber: >>>Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing<<< I said that in the first five minutes or so. His public speaking has improved a lot, English wise. That was a long and and painful thing to listen to and watch as it evolved. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:28 PM I then saw Omar give an interview in German and I must say he has improved a great deal. Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 08:36 PM ="AG/DC":3cc9wicn]What street did they find Keef on?[/quote:3cc9wicn] Main Street in Sag Harbor most likely. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:11 AM ="AG/DC"]OK, I'll bite. What would be the purpose of trying to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages? The purpose would be to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages, I suppose. New Motto for the Mets: 'This Ain't About Love' By TIM MARCHMAN June 18, 2008 "This ain't about love," Mets general manager Omar Minaya wants you to know. "We're trying to win a championship." At a press conference in Anaheim yesterday, much of which he spent unconvincingly claiming that Mets ownership had nothing to do with the Monday night massacre that claimed the jobs of manager Willie Randolph, pitching coach Rick Peterson, and first base coach Tom Nieto, Minaya went all-in. Having to defend the indefensible � coming just past midnight Pacific time after a win on the first game of a road trip, the firings seemed timed to keep the news off the back pages of the tabloids for a day and made an instant martyr of the inept Randolph � Minaya was not content merely to say that he had assembled a team that should have won this year, but said outright that he thinks his team still can win. "I feel that we have a championship team," he said. "We have talent to do that." In the sense that any major league team has the talent to win a championship, this is true. As Minaya spoke, his team was 61/2 games behind Philadelphia for the division lead and seven behind St. Louis for the wild-card lead. At the same time a year ago, the Yankees were 81/2 games out of first place, the Chicago Cubs were 61/2 games out, and Colorado was 51/2 games behind. Those three teams all ended up playing in October; and given the circumstances, there's no need to dwell on where Philadelphia placed in the standings as of last September 12. The Mets are, in theory, far from done. To believe that the Mets have a serious chance at winning is, though, to venture far from the fields of probability and into the fields of faith � always a bad bet, given that, as the great band the Minutemen reminded us, even God bows to math. Going into last night's games, Philadelphia was 42-30, and the Mets were 34-35. Were the Phillies to play .500 ball the rest of the year, the Mets would need to go 54-39 the rest of the way to surpass them. That works out to a winning percentage of .581, a 94-win pace over the course of a full season. Certainly the Mets could play that well, just as I could be the beneficiary of a giant bag of $100 bills falling out of the sky, but over the last calendar year, the team is 85-81, and since the beginning of 2007, they're 107-100. The evidence suggests that they're slightly better than a .500 team � capable of going on a league-shredding tear, but unlikely to do so. It should be noted as well that even if they do win 58% of their games for the rest of the year, which would leave them with 88 wins, it will hardly guarantee them a playoff berth. Philadelphia is well capable of winning more than half their games over the rest of the year, and only twice has a team won the wild card with fewer than 90 wins. Any kind of independent analysis foretells a grim fate for the Mets. Baseball Prospectus calculates that the Mets have a 9% chance of winning the division; going by oddschecker.com, offshore bookmakers give them 9-2 odds. Even figuring in the wild card, the Mets have, to be generous, a one-in-five chance of making the playoffs. The problem for Mets fans is that while Minaya may be drawing to an inside straight, and facing long odds in doing so, he's pot committed: Whatever the odds of the team playing in October are, they're higher than the odds of the GM keeping his job if the team finishes out of the money. He thus has every incentive to forge bravely onward, chasing his vanishing chance of success. The Wilpon family, which owns the Mets, also has every reason to run after any fleeting shot at victory. If the team makes a miraculous comeback, it will guarantee the team millions, and perhaps tens of millions, in playoff revenue, while assuring them of still more cash in years to come as the turnstiles turn and the people tune in to Mets games on SNY. Thus, even if in some abstract sense the best thing for the team would be to shop Oliver Perez, Billy Wagner, and perhaps even Carlos Beltran for young talent, doing so would benefit no one with any stake in the game. This being the dynamic, the question is basically whether new manager Jerry Manuel might actually pull off the improbable and engineer a raging run at first. It may be a long shot, but longer shots have landed. What the Mets do have going for them is that a lot of their best players have more in them than they've given. Perez has been execrable, while John Maine has been average. Beltran and David Wright can hit better than they have to date; Pedro Martinez is healthy-ish. If all these core players just revert to their usual selves, the Mets will improve. Even Johan Santana, who's been Cy Young-worthy so far, has more in him than Mets fans have seen; the traditionally slow starter has been on fire over his last three games, and may well be on course for some preposterous stretch of a dozen straight games in which he gives up two or fewer runs. He's done it before. Conversely, there are few players who can be expected to be much worse than they've been. Jose Reyes is hitting near the top of his range, but not over his head; he can be counted on. Meanwhile, the team has treaded water with Moises Alou and Ryan Church hurt, Carlos Delgado hitting as well as Luis Castillo, a bench populated by decrepit second basemen and third-string catchers scraping unfathomed depths, and Aaron Heilman invoking fond hopes for the return of Guillermo Mota. Anything approaching health or improvement from this part of the roster will give the team a real boost. If all of this amounts to saying that the Mets will be good if lots of players who have played well play better while others who haven't played well play less badly, that's because that's what it would take for the Mets to be any good. There are short odds of any of this happening, let alone all of it, which is why the team rates as a cosmic joke, an epic botch to rate with anything we've seen out of Madison Square Garden the last several years, and why in a sensible world the whole thing would be blown up with high explosives. No secret midnight firing, no epically lame press conference, and no shameful, cowardly, Dolanish conduct on behalf of ownership can change what this team is. Their only hope is the rawest of raw luck, and not only isn't it coming, they don't deserve it. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:15 AM Front page Willie. G-Fafif Jun 18 2008 03:10 AM John Koblin in the Observer, he who captured those damning "we're too good to care" quotes last September, frames the malaise...and will quote anybody in doing so: ]But the 2008 team has been disappointing in a totally unfamiliar way. They are boring and unenthusiastic and, as far as their famously passionate fans are concerned, they don�t inspire much of any emotion at all. �This year, I just don�t care if they win or lose,� said Greg Prince, the 45-year-old co-author of the Mets blog, Faith and Fear in Flushing. �This hasn�t happened to me before. You know what really bothers me? I think for so many Mets fans, the Mets are their identity. I�m not a religious person, and I�m not a God-and-country guy. So if I�m a Mets fan, and if I don�t care if they lose, I start thinking, �Am I doing this right anymore? Am I a bad fan for not caring?�� themetfairy Jun 18 2008 05:00 AM Whoah - FAFIF is no longer our best kept secret! AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:15 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 26 2008 03:49 PM I understand Greg's position. We all wonder if we give too much to this abstract idea, and few give more than Greg. But I'm still scratching my head. I didn't want Willie fired. Others did. He's fired. What's the real issue? Did they tell him he was safe and then shoot him in the back of the head? Never in New York history? How can that be anything less than a Yankee whitewash? It sucks. I want a team that's proactive, rather than reactive. And that's what this move is. But the fan base has been calling for blood for months. The management gives them some and they turn on management? We got cleon jones bouncing in and out of threads looking for more blood. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:16 AM More Front Page Willie: Benjamin Grimm Jun 18 2008 07:25 AM This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. metirish Jun 18 2008 07:29 AM Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. ] Ratting out Randolph Were a poll to be taken Tuesday, you can rest assured that New Yorkers would be of two minds about the ownership of the New York Mets - the debate being whether to rank the Wilpons above or below the subway rat on the scale of urban vermin. It's a tough question, considering how the Wilpons and the genus Rattus norvegicus are given to slinking in the dark. Charitable types that we are, we give a slight edge to Fred and Jeff Wilpon in that the genus Jerkus gigantus does not transmit rabies, so far as anyone knows. But, damn, those Wilpons can be repulsive creatures, as New York has just seen in how they gave Willie Randolph the boot. In the middle of the night. In California. Sure, GM Omar Minaya says he made the call to fire Randolph - but do you believe for a second that the Wilpons did not okay the gutless, graceless method of execution? Whatever his managerial shortcomings, Randolph has been aces since long before he became the first African-American to manage in the city, since long before he took the field at second for the Yankees. Up from Brooklyn, Randolph unfailingly conducted himself with class. Not so the Wilpons. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better? Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 07:35 AM It's as if the writers are more pissed off at the timing, not because it was particularly cruel to Willie, but because it didn't occur at an hour convenient to them. Lots of stuff to question here but the time of day shouldn't be one of them. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:37 AM There are more than enough reasons to not buy the News. That they blow things out of proportion to sell papers is, well, not news. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:39 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"]This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. Post of the season! Couldn't agree more. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:44 AM I rarely take the Wilpon's side but this whole Midnight Massacre thing venom is, to me, an overblown NY media frenzy. Where does it say that a Manager can't get fired less than two hours after the end of a game? Or was Omar supposed to walk into the dugout and relieve Willie during the seventh inning stretch so that Willie could catch an earlier flight back to NY? Three o'clock in the morning? That's just spin. It was midnight local time and that's the only time that counts. Otherwise, I'll tell you about my cousin who was on a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic when Willie got fired . He's doubly pissed about the whole affair. Or one point seven pissed. It was five o'clock in the morning my cousin's time. The Mets weren't obligated to notify their East Coast followers of the firing before bedtime. And as far as Willie's concerned, he was wide awake at midnight local time, and would've been so whether or not he stayed. Because in the baseball universe in which Mets players and coaches exist, Willie's last game - a night game - was followed by another night game. And in that context, any Met could've decided to stay awake till six or seven in the morning and still have enough time to get a full night' sleep (assuming you want to call it a full night's sleep being that it's hypothetically beginning after sunrise) and arrive at the stadium on time for the next night game. West Coast firing? Willie was fired far from home? So what. It's an occupational risk. Firings are never pleasant. What matters is how the Mets will compete over the remainder of the season and whether Manuel is competent. All the rest is noise. Gwreck Jun 18 2008 07:48 AM ="metirish":3aij0dcp]Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better?[/quote:3aij0dcp] No. If you want better, you'll have to switch to the NY Times. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:50 AM Did everybody decide to write the same post during the last 20 minutes? Methead Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM The Dugout Chat knows how it all transpired. Transcript here[/url:twomty35] John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM This is about Madden and his hard-on for 1970s Yankees. It informs the DN's entire sports-page POV. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:00 AM I can take this from Jon Stewart, because he's bleeding with us - AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:12 AM He's not with me. He's perpetuating the myth because it makes a better story and better comedy. Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:18 AM ="AG/DC"]Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. YES, YES, YES! Why is this hard for people to see?! He was fired at 11:00ish after the game. That's when managers get fired! Arrrrgh. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:24 AM Kevin Burkhardt reported that the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time. That's still the middle of the night in my book. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:31 AM Which is around the 11 o'clock hour, is certainly not three in the morning, and is about the time a manager might get back to the hotel. If the firing is unseemly, then it's unseemly. But the method it was done seems so typically typical of an in-season firing that it's banal. Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 08:32 AM ]the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time -- That's still the middle of the night in my book. Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 08:46 AM There are a dozen Met fans here funnier than Jon Stewart. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:59 AM You're sweet. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mqm1e0q]Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that.[/quote:2mqm1e0q] Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM Not you. soupcan Jun 18 2008 09:11 AM Ouch. Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:13 AM Not me either. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 09:20 AM Well, sheesh. If you two don't count, who could he mean? There's Rogers, sure, but he's not a Met fan. seawolf17 Jun 18 2008 09:35 AM No, CF counts. Remember Latvia? themetfairy Jun 18 2008 09:41 AM ="seawolf17":35mwt1ys]No, CF counts. Remember Latvia?[/quote:35mwt1ys] Every time I hear about Latvia, I think of CF. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 06:37 PM Quotes, Comments, and Excerpts on The Midnight Massacre +1 ]Jose Reyes might just as well have spit in his new manager's face, right there on the field. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]Less than two hours after the Mets defeated the Angels on Monday night, the announcement of Randolph's firing was released to the media -- timing that Paul Lo Duca, another former Met, called "unprofessional." Chico Harlan, Washington Post ]Wright credited Randolph for helping him blossom into one of the game's best young players, but appeared eager to move on with Manuel in charge. "I'll forever be grateful for Willie for giving me the opportunity to continue my development as a young player," Wright said. "He took this team to a different level while he was here. But that being said, I'm excited about what Jerry can bring to the table." Bart Hubbuch NY Post ]That is what constitutes being a good general manager around here, taking the bullets for the boss until the day the boss steps out of the shadows and puts one in you. Minaya knows this, having seen Steve Phillips pull the same routine eight years ago, squirming uncomfortably while painting Alex Rodriguez as a "24-and-1 guy" to cover up the truth: that his boss, Fred Wilpon, didn't want to spend the money. We know how well that worked out for Phillips and we know how it will eventually work out for Minaya.... After all, for Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' cuckoo COO, time was running out.... If he didn't nip this in the bud now, the Mets might make a run and he'd never get to do what he has been aching to do since October 2006. Jeff Wilpon would never get to can the manager. There really is no other explanation for the timing of Randolph's firing�. [A] source closely connected to the heated infighting over Randolph's future told me on Monday, "Jeff has been remorseless in his desire to get rid of Willie." That desire went back to the 2006 NLCS, after which Wilpon looked back at the series - Billy Wagner blowing a key save, Aaron Heilman giving up a game-winning home run in Game 7 and Beltran staring at a season-ending 3-2 curveball with the bases loaded - and determined that Willie Randolph was the problem. "[Jeff] is a reactive young man," the source said. "He thinks he is the baseball expert, and he decided that Willie was not the guy to lead this club...." He's also the source of most of the leaks to the media recently that the manager was on thin ice, which rendered somewhat laughable Minaya's contention that questions about Randolph's job status were becoming too much of a distraction for his continued employment.... Consequently, the Mets turned an easy firing into the front-office equivalent of blowing a seven-game lead in September. Under Jeff Wilpon's expert guidance, the Mets made the Yankees' divorce from Joe Torre look like a family retirement party. Now, they hand the whole mess over to Jerry Manuel, who seems like a nice enough guy but obviously the wrong choice. Still out there is Gary Carter, who seems like a perfect fit: a confirmed backstabber and schemer who campaigned publicly for Randolph's job last month while he was still the manager. How Jeff Wilpon missed out on a soul mate like that is almost as baffling as the firing of Willie Randolph. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]NEW YORK (AP) � Willie Randolph figured the New York Mets would fire someone. He just didn't think general manager Omar Minaya would pick him. "I thought he was talking about whacking a couple of my coaches," the ex-manager told several New York-area newspapers Wednesday outside his home in Franklin Lakes, N.J. "That's why I was stunned. I didn't think it was going to happen," Randolph said. "At the time, I felt the way he was talking to me, that I was pretty secure for the time being...." "Not the way I would have handled it," he said. "Bottom line, it is what it is." Willie Randolph, Associated Press ]The five-hour long flight from Los Angeles to New York provides ample time for introspection. Especially if you�re Willie Randolph, now the former Mets manager. Dismissed from his job after the Mets beat the Los Angeles Angels on Monday in Anaheim, Randolph arrived back home in New Jersey late Tuesday, his head still swimming from being told by Mets General Manager Omar Minaya that he was no longer the manager of the Mets. In a telephone interview Tuesday night, Randolph said he remained stunned by the dismissal, which took place in Minaya�s hotel room. �I didn�t see this coming,� he said. �When I spoke to Omar the day before I knew there might be some changes, but I got the feeling I was safe.� Or at least, Randolph added, safe until the next Mets-Yankees series, which takes place the last weekend of June, or the All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium, which takes place in the middle of July. On Sunday, as the Mets split a doubleheader at Shea Stadium with the Texas Rangers, Randolph said that he asked Minaya to pull the trigger, if that�s what Minaya had in mind, and not have Randolph travel all the way across the country to Anaheim. �I actually asked him. I said, �Omar, do this now. If you�re going to do this, do this now. I know you�ve got a lot of pressure on you, but if I�m not the guy to lead this team then don�t let me get on this plane.� I did say that to him.� �I just told Willie that I want to have closure by the end of this trip,� Minaya said Wednesday when asked to respond to Randolph�s assertion that he told Minaya he did not want to get on the plane if his dismissal was imminent. The trip the Mets are now on ends Sunday in Colorado, with the Mets then returning to Shea on Monday night to play Seattle. Minaya has also stated that he was not sure what he was going to do about Randolph when he went to sleep Sunday night and that he did not make up his mind until Monday... Asked if he thought his dismissal was entirely Minaya�s idea, as the general manager is contending, Randolph said: �I have my doubts. Let�s just leave it at that. I have my doubts.� At his Tuesday news conference in Anaheim, Minaya was asked if he thought Randolph had been treated shabbily by the Mets organization. He said he did not think that was the case. But asked if he thought �shabby� was too strong a word to characterize his treatment, Randolph chuckled, and said: �That�s not strong enough.� Wiliam Rhoden, NY Times Kong76 Jun 18 2008 06:58 PM CF, Latvia ... lol, Baltic Bomber humor never gets old. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:58 PM If you made up Wallace Matthews, I'd think he was too un-realistic a character. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 23 2008 08:52 PM Fred Wilpon takes the blame[/url:5bclim2i] for how Willie's firing went down. Or not. I kinda think he is really just pointing the finger at Omar. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 27 2008 08:25 PM Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding. SteveJRogers Dec 27 2008 09:22 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":20ivi8ic]Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding.[/quote:20ivi8ic] The thing is also that the whole incident is one "card" the anti-Wilpons or anti-Met people, whether fan or media member, will use forever to deride the Mets or the Wilpons as being classless; As in "Yeah, but we've never had a guy fly 3,000 miles only to fire him at night and fly all the way back." Like the argument over the 2004 ALCS vs 7 up with 17 to play (Which seems like this board actually is the only place where 7 up with 17 to play is NOT considered the greatest collapse in the history of sports period, but that is another topic), it is one more burden that Met fans have to put up with when arguing with other fans, or people that just don't know the whole story. metirish Dec 27 2008 09:27 PM The thing is that was a fun read over. A Boy Named Seo Dec 27 2008 10:03 PM Where the hell is Roblatt? TransMonk Dec 29 2008 03:27 PM I like how the embedded Newsday cover shows today's news. Edgy DC Dec 29 2008 06:25 PM Bam! ="seawolf17"] "Well, Joe, I'm just saying I'm available. In fact, I'm actually on a flight to Anaheim right now, and I brought my big box of manager stuff." Kong76 Dec 29 2008 06:57 PM Good bump, good nomination, and good illustration of 'bucket's sig line. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 29 2008 08:27 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2u8um23g][ Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg[/quote:2u8um23g] This response didn't get enough lolove.

[soupcan]

="AG/DC":159as6ki]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:159as6ki] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:34 PM

Adam Rubin is perhaps the first to get quotes. Willie Randolph says he's stung, and Rick Peterson compares it to a trip to Home Depot: ]Blindsided Willie Randolph says he was 'really stung' by firing By ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Tuesday, June 17th 2008, 1:44 PM Willie Randolph says he was 'surprised' and 'stung' by early-morning firing. COSTA MESA, Calif. - Willie Randolph suggested he was blindsided by his firing early this morning, saying in brief comments as he left the Westin South Coast Plaza hotel today that he had no inkling of his imminent firing when he left Angel Stadium after Monday night's victory. "I don't have much to say, really," Randolph said roughly nine hours after he was fired by GM Omar Minaya. "I'm just very disappointed that I'm not going to be able to fulfill what my dream is, which is to come here and help this team win a world championship. I'm just going to miss my players. To the fans, I'm really sorry that I wasn't able to fulfill what I really said I wanted to do here - get this team to a world championship. That's what I've always been about. It's very, very difficult right now, but I'm ready to move on." Asked shortly before 2 p.m. EDT what was next for him, Randolph said: "Just go home and enjoy my family." Randolph, who seemed subdued but unshaken, insisted he had no clue as he left the stadium Monday. "No, no," he said. "I was really stung by it. I was surprised." Pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto, who also were fired, left the hotel just before Randolph. "I came here five years ago. Fred and Jeff (Wilpon) gave me a wonderful opportunity," Peterson said. "I left Oakland to come here and be with my kids on the East Coast, and it's been wonderful. I appreciated the opportunity and they welcomed me into their home. Homes go through renovations. Sometimes you have to make changes when things don't go that well. I'm part of that change. I totally understand that. I grew up in the baseball business. I'm the hardwood floor that's getting ripped out. And they're going to bring in the Tuscany tile. And it will be great."

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:37 PM

And this, from the Rocky Mountain News, appears to answer the All Star Game question: ]Hurdle likely will find All-Star sub for Randolph By Jack Etkin, Rocky Mountain News Originally published 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 Updated 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 National League manager Clint Hurdle of the Rockies likely will add another coach to his All-Star staff after the New York Mets' firing of Willie Randolph early Tuesday. Hurdle had asked Randolph and San Diego manager Bud Black to be on his coaching staff for the July 15 All-Star Game in the final season at Yankee Stadium. Randolph grew up in Brooklyn, played and coached for the Yankees and managed the Mets. "It�s Clint�s decision, but he will talk with us before he extends an invitation to someone," said Katy Feeney, senior vice president of scheduling and club relations for Major League Baseball. "But since this just happened, we�d like to be able to think about it for a day or two." Feeney said she had not spoken with Hurdle but had discussed the situation with Jay Alves, the Rockies' vice president of communications and public relations. Feeney said she wanted to talk with Randolph but "would let him take a breath and get home." He was fired shortly after midnight PDT Tuesday in Anaheim, Calif., where the Mets had opened a western trip with a 9-6 victory over the Los Angeles Angels. That six-game trip concludes with three games at Coors Field, beginning Friday. Asked whether it was possible Randolph would remain on Hurdle�s staff even though he was not working, Feeney said, "I seriously doubt that would happen." Feeney said this is the first instance of a manager who was scheduled to be an All-Star coach being fired before the game. She cited two recent examples of managers who were All-Star coaches being fired soon after the game. Houston manager Jimy Williams was a National League coach when the game was played at Houston�s Minute Maid Park in 2004. The Astros fired Williams the day after the game. Two days after the 2002 All-Star Game in Milwaukee, the Cleveland Indians fired manager Charlie Manuel, who had been an American League coach.

AG/DC Jun 17 2008 01:39 PM

Well, Rick's lost his mind.

metirish Jun 17 2008 01:43 PM

Peterson as philosophical as ever .

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 01:44 PM

Reached for comment as he arrived at the hotel, Dan Warthen refuted Peterson's allegations. "I'm more of a tibetan throw rug."

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:45 PM

Well, right now the pitching coach has a choice of two nicknames: "Tuscany Tile" or "Wart Hen." Most likely, neither will stick (only Valadius knows for sure) but I think I'd lean towards Tuscany Tile if I were him.

metirish Jun 17 2008 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM

Well Dan Warthen really made a mess of things , asked at the hotel how he was going to fix the bullpen he said that would only take a few minutes , Jay Horowitz was seen shaking his head as he ushered him away.

SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 01:49 PM

="soupcan":jwyzhyig] ="AG/DC":jwyzhyig]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Cubs didn't knock the Giants out of the playoffs though. Methead Jun 17 2008 01:53 PM Unfortunately for Peterson, now he's more like the guy who stretches the little chain across the aisle to block it off while another guy uses a forklift to take something off a really high shelf. cooby Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM ="soupcan":1g82r3bd] ="AG/DC":1g82r3bd]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Maybe because both names make you hungry Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM I got the above articles after doing a Google News search on "Willie Randolph." I just now refreshed the results page, and the Mets are just plain getting ripped all over the place, pretty much universally, for their handling of this. Words I'm seeing include "vicious," "gutless," "evil,", "classless," and "dysfunctional." I really do wonder who thought it was a good idea to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time? Why couldn't they have called a 9 a.m. (Pacific Time) press conference? Sure, maybe something would have leaked in the early hours today (perhaps when it was discovered that Oberkfell and Warthen were en route) but that wouldn't have been so bad at all. Not compared to the shitstorm they've kicked off. How could they not have known? I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:00 PM I wonder if that Lennon fellow has a perch at the airport to spy on the Mets, too? metirish Jun 17 2008 02:02 PM Yeah I thought Fred and Jeff were very image conscious yet they let this shit happen , is Horowitz responsible for this? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:05 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1k2k7ea6] I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here.[/quote:1k2k7ea6] If you criticize everything the Mets ever do you are bound to be right eventually Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Namor makes a good point. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 02:17 PM If they fired them last night, they needed to issue the press release last night, or else Willie or Peterson or �ieto can break the story. Maybe I have Castro's Disease, but isn't 3 AM midnight out there. And isn't that pretty much what time you'd expect after a 7:05 West Coast start goes 3:10 and then they talk to the victims at the hotel so as not to do it in front of their troops. I didn't like the Willie hiring. I don't like the firing or how it was done, but I think too much is being made of the last. How many were crying for the Mets to axe him or state outright that his job was safe? So they did. There's no way to do this that isn't ugly. Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM i'm fine with it. Manuel's Mets. Tonight. 10:05 PM. I'm ready. metirish Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM Excellent points there edgy , especially regarding the time difference. PatchyFogg Jun 17 2008 02:21 PM I'm not so sure that the timing of the firing was to avoid Father's Day, as much as it was to avoid being the 2nd Mets blunder on a June 15th. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:23 PM Hey Patchy! Long time/no time! (Or however that goes...) Do you really think that firing Willie was a "blunder"? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Six minutes to Omar ... this should be, um, er ...well it'll be something. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 02:58 PM Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan? SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 02:59 PM ="Frayed Knot":36fy43x9]Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan?[/quote:36fy43x9] HA! Good question, does anyone know what team she was a Lovin' Big Shot for before 2005? But now she doesn't know people, BIG people! Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:00 PM ="cooby"]Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? So they can listen on WFAN maybe? I'm sure Mike and Dawg will be covering it. (I'm more sure that they'll have it than that SNY will.) Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM c: >>>Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars?<<< I read on Don Jennon's blog that it was so people had to listen on the radio and not watch on the tv. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM SNY is covering it, on Daily News Live. Omar will be standing in front of an Angels podium, with an Angels backdrop. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:02 PM 40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 03:04 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1x5ho6d8]40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement?[/quote:1x5ho6d8] that WAS his written statement, if not there would have been 60-70% "ums" and "uhs" Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:06 PM Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM Although I'd prefer ask to ax. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM I think so too. But today he appears drunk. He's repeating himself like crazy. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:09 PM Probably didn't get much sleep. This is pointless if they can't mic up the questions from the gallery better. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:17 PM "I can tell you that, yes, Jerry Manuel will be the manager for the rest of the year." Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Questions directed to Manuel seem to be a lot more audible on SNY than the one's that Omar fielded. G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Alomar no longer third base coach, but bench coach. Hallelujah! John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 03:54 PM Jerry: Almost as good as Omar's been bad so far! Kong76 Jun 17 2008 04:00 PM Yeah, I like him so far. First words out of him were something like, "Adam, my brother, wazzzup?" G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 04:01 PM Wow, it's like listening to a baseball man, not a politician. Jay Horwitz had to have wished he brought one of those hooks from vaudeville listening to Omar. But Manuel's a godsend. If he manages like he talks, we might not suck nearly as much. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 04:57 PM I agree. I'm very encouraged so far. Of course, we're all rooting for him to do so well that he's invited back, but now that feeling is stronger. Grote15 Jun 17 2008 05:18 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 18 2008 10:45 AM A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also and Howard Johnson will be the manager of your New York Mets starring Hojos best bud david Wright.D 2010 Carlos Gomez signed by Yankees AG/DC Jun 17 2008 05:41 PM I'll take that bet. (Now I need to figure out who Carlos Lopez is.) Rockin' Doc Jun 17 2008 06:42 PM Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought. metirish Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="KC":1z7nhqrc]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:1z7nhqrc] I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean? Liked what I heard from Manuel. SNY are doing an all out bonanza with special programming , Mets in Transition , even dragged Keith in from the street. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="Grote15":hlktko6f]A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also[/quote:hlktko6f] I know this is just silliness, but I fear the stupidity in the Mets' front office. I sometimes feel like they are acutely attuned to the dumbest impulses of their fan base; who are, in turn, easily swayed by the idiot New York sports columnists and radio hosts. Wallace Matthews said something a few weeks ago about how Reyes has been more Rey Ordonez than Derek Jeter and Mike & the Mad Dog had him all but traded to Toronto for Vernon Wells and David Eckstein the other day. I know I should just ignore such lunatic morons, but I fear they can poison a portion of this town into believing something ridiculous, which could then catch the attention of the not-too-bright Wilpons. Reyes is a gift from the baseball gods. I don't know why they gave him to us, but they did. Fans might go their whole lives and only be able to root for one or two stars who shine like he does, and that's if they're lucky. A guy who runs like Hermes and throws like Apollo and plays shortstop. For the Dusty Baker types, he hustles and scraps and gets his uniform dirty. For the Billy Beane types, he gets on base and hits for power and steals at an 80% clip. He's a plus on defense, he's a plus on offense, he's a plus on the basepaths and he doesn't seem like a jerk. He's a home grown talent that we were privileged to watch grow up before our eyes, and when he's gone we'll have a Jose Reyes-shaped hole in our baseball souls. I know no sane GM would ever trade a player like him, but as I watch Scott Kazmir shoot lightning from his left hand (right now he's 2-hitting the Cubs through 4 2/3) sometimes I worry that some worm-tongue will get into a Wilpon's mind and conspire to take Reyes away from us. Like Borat once said, "Yes, I fear!" AG/DC Jun 17 2008 06:53 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 07:39 PM ="Rockin' Doc":1jslk0em]Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought.[/quote:1jslk0em] Punctuation is also apparently a luxury. What street did they find Keef on? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:06 PM irish: >>>I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean?<<< Yeah, I don't know why I even jumped to his defense ... especially here. Sometimes I forget where I'm posting and was thinking maybe jeez let's not let's jump on the guy's English when he's obviously bettering himself on that front. 'kay? OK? 'kay? -- he needs to work on that next. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:08 PM I'll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM ="KC":zwyu84pq]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:zwyu84pq] Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM irish: >>>'ll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK?<<< I don't know what you mean, I was joking. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:25 PM lunchgrabber: >>>Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing<<< I said that in the first five minutes or so. His public speaking has improved a lot, English wise. That was a long and and painful thing to listen to and watch as it evolved. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:28 PM I then saw Omar give an interview in German and I must say he has improved a great deal. Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 08:36 PM ="AG/DC":3cc9wicn]What street did they find Keef on?[/quote:3cc9wicn] Main Street in Sag Harbor most likely. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:11 AM ="AG/DC"]OK, I'll bite. What would be the purpose of trying to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages? The purpose would be to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages, I suppose. New Motto for the Mets: 'This Ain't About Love' By TIM MARCHMAN June 18, 2008 "This ain't about love," Mets general manager Omar Minaya wants you to know. "We're trying to win a championship." At a press conference in Anaheim yesterday, much of which he spent unconvincingly claiming that Mets ownership had nothing to do with the Monday night massacre that claimed the jobs of manager Willie Randolph, pitching coach Rick Peterson, and first base coach Tom Nieto, Minaya went all-in. Having to defend the indefensible � coming just past midnight Pacific time after a win on the first game of a road trip, the firings seemed timed to keep the news off the back pages of the tabloids for a day and made an instant martyr of the inept Randolph � Minaya was not content merely to say that he had assembled a team that should have won this year, but said outright that he thinks his team still can win. "I feel that we have a championship team," he said. "We have talent to do that." In the sense that any major league team has the talent to win a championship, this is true. As Minaya spoke, his team was 61/2 games behind Philadelphia for the division lead and seven behind St. Louis for the wild-card lead. At the same time a year ago, the Yankees were 81/2 games out of first place, the Chicago Cubs were 61/2 games out, and Colorado was 51/2 games behind. Those three teams all ended up playing in October; and given the circumstances, there's no need to dwell on where Philadelphia placed in the standings as of last September 12. The Mets are, in theory, far from done. To believe that the Mets have a serious chance at winning is, though, to venture far from the fields of probability and into the fields of faith � always a bad bet, given that, as the great band the Minutemen reminded us, even God bows to math. Going into last night's games, Philadelphia was 42-30, and the Mets were 34-35. Were the Phillies to play .500 ball the rest of the year, the Mets would need to go 54-39 the rest of the way to surpass them. That works out to a winning percentage of .581, a 94-win pace over the course of a full season. Certainly the Mets could play that well, just as I could be the beneficiary of a giant bag of $100 bills falling out of the sky, but over the last calendar year, the team is 85-81, and since the beginning of 2007, they're 107-100. The evidence suggests that they're slightly better than a .500 team � capable of going on a league-shredding tear, but unlikely to do so. It should be noted as well that even if they do win 58% of their games for the rest of the year, which would leave them with 88 wins, it will hardly guarantee them a playoff berth. Philadelphia is well capable of winning more than half their games over the rest of the year, and only twice has a team won the wild card with fewer than 90 wins. Any kind of independent analysis foretells a grim fate for the Mets. Baseball Prospectus calculates that the Mets have a 9% chance of winning the division; going by oddschecker.com, offshore bookmakers give them 9-2 odds. Even figuring in the wild card, the Mets have, to be generous, a one-in-five chance of making the playoffs. The problem for Mets fans is that while Minaya may be drawing to an inside straight, and facing long odds in doing so, he's pot committed: Whatever the odds of the team playing in October are, they're higher than the odds of the GM keeping his job if the team finishes out of the money. He thus has every incentive to forge bravely onward, chasing his vanishing chance of success. The Wilpon family, which owns the Mets, also has every reason to run after any fleeting shot at victory. If the team makes a miraculous comeback, it will guarantee the team millions, and perhaps tens of millions, in playoff revenue, while assuring them of still more cash in years to come as the turnstiles turn and the people tune in to Mets games on SNY. Thus, even if in some abstract sense the best thing for the team would be to shop Oliver Perez, Billy Wagner, and perhaps even Carlos Beltran for young talent, doing so would benefit no one with any stake in the game. This being the dynamic, the question is basically whether new manager Jerry Manuel might actually pull off the improbable and engineer a raging run at first. It may be a long shot, but longer shots have landed. What the Mets do have going for them is that a lot of their best players have more in them than they've given. Perez has been execrable, while John Maine has been average. Beltran and David Wright can hit better than they have to date; Pedro Martinez is healthy-ish. If all these core players just revert to their usual selves, the Mets will improve. Even Johan Santana, who's been Cy Young-worthy so far, has more in him than Mets fans have seen; the traditionally slow starter has been on fire over his last three games, and may well be on course for some preposterous stretch of a dozen straight games in which he gives up two or fewer runs. He's done it before. Conversely, there are few players who can be expected to be much worse than they've been. Jose Reyes is hitting near the top of his range, but not over his head; he can be counted on. Meanwhile, the team has treaded water with Moises Alou and Ryan Church hurt, Carlos Delgado hitting as well as Luis Castillo, a bench populated by decrepit second basemen and third-string catchers scraping unfathomed depths, and Aaron Heilman invoking fond hopes for the return of Guillermo Mota. Anything approaching health or improvement from this part of the roster will give the team a real boost. If all of this amounts to saying that the Mets will be good if lots of players who have played well play better while others who haven't played well play less badly, that's because that's what it would take for the Mets to be any good. There are short odds of any of this happening, let alone all of it, which is why the team rates as a cosmic joke, an epic botch to rate with anything we've seen out of Madison Square Garden the last several years, and why in a sensible world the whole thing would be blown up with high explosives. No secret midnight firing, no epically lame press conference, and no shameful, cowardly, Dolanish conduct on behalf of ownership can change what this team is. Their only hope is the rawest of raw luck, and not only isn't it coming, they don't deserve it. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:15 AM Front page Willie. G-Fafif Jun 18 2008 03:10 AM John Koblin in the Observer, he who captured those damning "we're too good to care" quotes last September, frames the malaise...and will quote anybody in doing so: ]But the 2008 team has been disappointing in a totally unfamiliar way. They are boring and unenthusiastic and, as far as their famously passionate fans are concerned, they don�t inspire much of any emotion at all. �This year, I just don�t care if they win or lose,� said Greg Prince, the 45-year-old co-author of the Mets blog, Faith and Fear in Flushing. �This hasn�t happened to me before. You know what really bothers me? I think for so many Mets fans, the Mets are their identity. I�m not a religious person, and I�m not a God-and-country guy. So if I�m a Mets fan, and if I don�t care if they lose, I start thinking, �Am I doing this right anymore? Am I a bad fan for not caring?�� themetfairy Jun 18 2008 05:00 AM Whoah - FAFIF is no longer our best kept secret! AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:15 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 26 2008 03:49 PM I understand Greg's position. We all wonder if we give too much to this abstract idea, and few give more than Greg. But I'm still scratching my head. I didn't want Willie fired. Others did. He's fired. What's the real issue? Did they tell him he was safe and then shoot him in the back of the head? Never in New York history? How can that be anything less than a Yankee whitewash? It sucks. I want a team that's proactive, rather than reactive. And that's what this move is. But the fan base has been calling for blood for months. The management gives them some and they turn on management? We got cleon jones bouncing in and out of threads looking for more blood. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:16 AM More Front Page Willie: Benjamin Grimm Jun 18 2008 07:25 AM This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. metirish Jun 18 2008 07:29 AM Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. ] Ratting out Randolph Were a poll to be taken Tuesday, you can rest assured that New Yorkers would be of two minds about the ownership of the New York Mets - the debate being whether to rank the Wilpons above or below the subway rat on the scale of urban vermin. It's a tough question, considering how the Wilpons and the genus Rattus norvegicus are given to slinking in the dark. Charitable types that we are, we give a slight edge to Fred and Jeff Wilpon in that the genus Jerkus gigantus does not transmit rabies, so far as anyone knows. But, damn, those Wilpons can be repulsive creatures, as New York has just seen in how they gave Willie Randolph the boot. In the middle of the night. In California. Sure, GM Omar Minaya says he made the call to fire Randolph - but do you believe for a second that the Wilpons did not okay the gutless, graceless method of execution? Whatever his managerial shortcomings, Randolph has been aces since long before he became the first African-American to manage in the city, since long before he took the field at second for the Yankees. Up from Brooklyn, Randolph unfailingly conducted himself with class. Not so the Wilpons. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better? Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 07:35 AM It's as if the writers are more pissed off at the timing, not because it was particularly cruel to Willie, but because it didn't occur at an hour convenient to them. Lots of stuff to question here but the time of day shouldn't be one of them. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:37 AM There are more than enough reasons to not buy the News. That they blow things out of proportion to sell papers is, well, not news. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:39 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"]This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. Post of the season! Couldn't agree more. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:44 AM I rarely take the Wilpon's side but this whole Midnight Massacre thing venom is, to me, an overblown NY media frenzy. Where does it say that a Manager can't get fired less than two hours after the end of a game? Or was Omar supposed to walk into the dugout and relieve Willie during the seventh inning stretch so that Willie could catch an earlier flight back to NY? Three o'clock in the morning? That's just spin. It was midnight local time and that's the only time that counts. Otherwise, I'll tell you about my cousin who was on a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic when Willie got fired . He's doubly pissed about the whole affair. Or one point seven pissed. It was five o'clock in the morning my cousin's time. The Mets weren't obligated to notify their East Coast followers of the firing before bedtime. And as far as Willie's concerned, he was wide awake at midnight local time, and would've been so whether or not he stayed. Because in the baseball universe in which Mets players and coaches exist, Willie's last game - a night game - was followed by another night game. And in that context, any Met could've decided to stay awake till six or seven in the morning and still have enough time to get a full night' sleep (assuming you want to call it a full night's sleep being that it's hypothetically beginning after sunrise) and arrive at the stadium on time for the next night game. West Coast firing? Willie was fired far from home? So what. It's an occupational risk. Firings are never pleasant. What matters is how the Mets will compete over the remainder of the season and whether Manuel is competent. All the rest is noise. Gwreck Jun 18 2008 07:48 AM ="metirish":3aij0dcp]Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better?[/quote:3aij0dcp] No. If you want better, you'll have to switch to the NY Times. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:50 AM Did everybody decide to write the same post during the last 20 minutes? Methead Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM The Dugout Chat knows how it all transpired. Transcript here[/url:twomty35] John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM This is about Madden and his hard-on for 1970s Yankees. It informs the DN's entire sports-page POV. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:00 AM I can take this from Jon Stewart, because he's bleeding with us - AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:12 AM He's not with me. He's perpetuating the myth because it makes a better story and better comedy. Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:18 AM ="AG/DC"]Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. YES, YES, YES! Why is this hard for people to see?! He was fired at 11:00ish after the game. That's when managers get fired! Arrrrgh. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:24 AM Kevin Burkhardt reported that the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time. That's still the middle of the night in my book. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:31 AM Which is around the 11 o'clock hour, is certainly not three in the morning, and is about the time a manager might get back to the hotel. If the firing is unseemly, then it's unseemly. But the method it was done seems so typically typical of an in-season firing that it's banal. Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 08:32 AM ]the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time -- That's still the middle of the night in my book. Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 08:46 AM There are a dozen Met fans here funnier than Jon Stewart. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:59 AM You're sweet. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mqm1e0q]Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that.[/quote:2mqm1e0q] Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM Not you. soupcan Jun 18 2008 09:11 AM Ouch. Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:13 AM Not me either. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 09:20 AM Well, sheesh. If you two don't count, who could he mean? There's Rogers, sure, but he's not a Met fan. seawolf17 Jun 18 2008 09:35 AM No, CF counts. Remember Latvia? themetfairy Jun 18 2008 09:41 AM ="seawolf17":35mwt1ys]No, CF counts. Remember Latvia?[/quote:35mwt1ys] Every time I hear about Latvia, I think of CF. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 06:37 PM Quotes, Comments, and Excerpts on The Midnight Massacre +1 ]Jose Reyes might just as well have spit in his new manager's face, right there on the field. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]Less than two hours after the Mets defeated the Angels on Monday night, the announcement of Randolph's firing was released to the media -- timing that Paul Lo Duca, another former Met, called "unprofessional." Chico Harlan, Washington Post ]Wright credited Randolph for helping him blossom into one of the game's best young players, but appeared eager to move on with Manuel in charge. "I'll forever be grateful for Willie for giving me the opportunity to continue my development as a young player," Wright said. "He took this team to a different level while he was here. But that being said, I'm excited about what Jerry can bring to the table." Bart Hubbuch NY Post ]That is what constitutes being a good general manager around here, taking the bullets for the boss until the day the boss steps out of the shadows and puts one in you. Minaya knows this, having seen Steve Phillips pull the same routine eight years ago, squirming uncomfortably while painting Alex Rodriguez as a "24-and-1 guy" to cover up the truth: that his boss, Fred Wilpon, didn't want to spend the money. We know how well that worked out for Phillips and we know how it will eventually work out for Minaya.... After all, for Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' cuckoo COO, time was running out.... If he didn't nip this in the bud now, the Mets might make a run and he'd never get to do what he has been aching to do since October 2006. Jeff Wilpon would never get to can the manager. There really is no other explanation for the timing of Randolph's firing�. [A] source closely connected to the heated infighting over Randolph's future told me on Monday, "Jeff has been remorseless in his desire to get rid of Willie." That desire went back to the 2006 NLCS, after which Wilpon looked back at the series - Billy Wagner blowing a key save, Aaron Heilman giving up a game-winning home run in Game 7 and Beltran staring at a season-ending 3-2 curveball with the bases loaded - and determined that Willie Randolph was the problem. "[Jeff] is a reactive young man," the source said. "He thinks he is the baseball expert, and he decided that Willie was not the guy to lead this club...." He's also the source of most of the leaks to the media recently that the manager was on thin ice, which rendered somewhat laughable Minaya's contention that questions about Randolph's job status were becoming too much of a distraction for his continued employment.... Consequently, the Mets turned an easy firing into the front-office equivalent of blowing a seven-game lead in September. Under Jeff Wilpon's expert guidance, the Mets made the Yankees' divorce from Joe Torre look like a family retirement party. Now, they hand the whole mess over to Jerry Manuel, who seems like a nice enough guy but obviously the wrong choice. Still out there is Gary Carter, who seems like a perfect fit: a confirmed backstabber and schemer who campaigned publicly for Randolph's job last month while he was still the manager. How Jeff Wilpon missed out on a soul mate like that is almost as baffling as the firing of Willie Randolph. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]NEW YORK (AP) � Willie Randolph figured the New York Mets would fire someone. He just didn't think general manager Omar Minaya would pick him. "I thought he was talking about whacking a couple of my coaches," the ex-manager told several New York-area newspapers Wednesday outside his home in Franklin Lakes, N.J. "That's why I was stunned. I didn't think it was going to happen," Randolph said. "At the time, I felt the way he was talking to me, that I was pretty secure for the time being...." "Not the way I would have handled it," he said. "Bottom line, it is what it is." Willie Randolph, Associated Press ]The five-hour long flight from Los Angeles to New York provides ample time for introspection. Especially if you�re Willie Randolph, now the former Mets manager. Dismissed from his job after the Mets beat the Los Angeles Angels on Monday in Anaheim, Randolph arrived back home in New Jersey late Tuesday, his head still swimming from being told by Mets General Manager Omar Minaya that he was no longer the manager of the Mets. In a telephone interview Tuesday night, Randolph said he remained stunned by the dismissal, which took place in Minaya�s hotel room. �I didn�t see this coming,� he said. �When I spoke to Omar the day before I knew there might be some changes, but I got the feeling I was safe.� Or at least, Randolph added, safe until the next Mets-Yankees series, which takes place the last weekend of June, or the All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium, which takes place in the middle of July. On Sunday, as the Mets split a doubleheader at Shea Stadium with the Texas Rangers, Randolph said that he asked Minaya to pull the trigger, if that�s what Minaya had in mind, and not have Randolph travel all the way across the country to Anaheim. �I actually asked him. I said, �Omar, do this now. If you�re going to do this, do this now. I know you�ve got a lot of pressure on you, but if I�m not the guy to lead this team then don�t let me get on this plane.� I did say that to him.� �I just told Willie that I want to have closure by the end of this trip,� Minaya said Wednesday when asked to respond to Randolph�s assertion that he told Minaya he did not want to get on the plane if his dismissal was imminent. The trip the Mets are now on ends Sunday in Colorado, with the Mets then returning to Shea on Monday night to play Seattle. Minaya has also stated that he was not sure what he was going to do about Randolph when he went to sleep Sunday night and that he did not make up his mind until Monday... Asked if he thought his dismissal was entirely Minaya�s idea, as the general manager is contending, Randolph said: �I have my doubts. Let�s just leave it at that. I have my doubts.� At his Tuesday news conference in Anaheim, Minaya was asked if he thought Randolph had been treated shabbily by the Mets organization. He said he did not think that was the case. But asked if he thought �shabby� was too strong a word to characterize his treatment, Randolph chuckled, and said: �That�s not strong enough.� Wiliam Rhoden, NY Times Kong76 Jun 18 2008 06:58 PM CF, Latvia ... lol, Baltic Bomber humor never gets old. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:58 PM If you made up Wallace Matthews, I'd think he was too un-realistic a character. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 23 2008 08:52 PM Fred Wilpon takes the blame[/url:5bclim2i] for how Willie's firing went down. Or not. I kinda think he is really just pointing the finger at Omar. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 27 2008 08:25 PM Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding. SteveJRogers Dec 27 2008 09:22 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":20ivi8ic]Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding.[/quote:20ivi8ic] The thing is also that the whole incident is one "card" the anti-Wilpons or anti-Met people, whether fan or media member, will use forever to deride the Mets or the Wilpons as being classless; As in "Yeah, but we've never had a guy fly 3,000 miles only to fire him at night and fly all the way back." Like the argument over the 2004 ALCS vs 7 up with 17 to play (Which seems like this board actually is the only place where 7 up with 17 to play is NOT considered the greatest collapse in the history of sports period, but that is another topic), it is one more burden that Met fans have to put up with when arguing with other fans, or people that just don't know the whole story. metirish Dec 27 2008 09:27 PM The thing is that was a fun read over. A Boy Named Seo Dec 27 2008 10:03 PM Where the hell is Roblatt? TransMonk Dec 29 2008 03:27 PM I like how the embedded Newsday cover shows today's news. Edgy DC Dec 29 2008 06:25 PM Bam! ="seawolf17"] "Well, Joe, I'm just saying I'm available. In fact, I'm actually on a flight to Anaheim right now, and I brought my big box of manager stuff." Kong76 Dec 29 2008 06:57 PM Good bump, good nomination, and good illustration of 'bucket's sig line. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 29 2008 08:27 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2u8um23g][ Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg[/quote:2u8um23g] This response didn't get enough lolove.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Adam Rubin is perhaps the first to get quotes. Willie Randolph says he's stung, and Rick Peterson compares it to a trip to Home Depot:

]Blindsided Willie Randolph says he was 'really stung' by firing By ADAM RUBIN DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER Tuesday, June 17th 2008, 1:44 PM Willie Randolph says he was 'surprised' and 'stung' by early-morning firing. COSTA MESA, Calif. - Willie Randolph suggested he was blindsided by his firing early this morning, saying in brief comments as he left the Westin South Coast Plaza hotel today that he had no inkling of his imminent firing when he left Angel Stadium after Monday night's victory. "I don't have much to say, really," Randolph said roughly nine hours after he was fired by GM Omar Minaya. "I'm just very disappointed that I'm not going to be able to fulfill what my dream is, which is to come here and help this team win a world championship. I'm just going to miss my players. To the fans, I'm really sorry that I wasn't able to fulfill what I really said I wanted to do here - get this team to a world championship. That's what I've always been about. It's very, very difficult right now, but I'm ready to move on." Asked shortly before 2 p.m. EDT what was next for him, Randolph said: "Just go home and enjoy my family." Randolph, who seemed subdued but unshaken, insisted he had no clue as he left the stadium Monday. "No, no," he said. "I was really stung by it. I was surprised." Pitching coach Rick Peterson and first base coach Tom Nieto, who also were fired, left the hotel just before Randolph. "I came here five years ago. Fred and Jeff (Wilpon) gave me a wonderful opportunity," Peterson said. "I left Oakland to come here and be with my kids on the East Coast, and it's been wonderful. I appreciated the opportunity and they welcomed me into their home. Homes go through renovations. Sometimes you have to make changes when things don't go that well. I'm part of that change. I totally understand that. I grew up in the baseball business. I'm the hardwood floor that's getting ripped out. And they're going to bring in the Tuscany tile. And it will be great."

[Benjamin Grimm]

And this, from the Rocky Mountain News, appears to answer the All Star Game question:

]Hurdle likely will find All-Star sub for Randolph By Jack Etkin, Rocky Mountain News Originally published 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 Updated 12:32 p.m., June 17, 2008 National League manager Clint Hurdle of the Rockies likely will add another coach to his All-Star staff after the New York Mets' firing of Willie Randolph early Tuesday. Hurdle had asked Randolph and San Diego manager Bud Black to be on his coaching staff for the July 15 All-Star Game in the final season at Yankee Stadium. Randolph grew up in Brooklyn, played and coached for the Yankees and managed the Mets. "It�s Clint�s decision, but he will talk with us before he extends an invitation to someone," said Katy Feeney, senior vice president of scheduling and club relations for Major League Baseball. "But since this just happened, we�d like to be able to think about it for a day or two." Feeney said she had not spoken with Hurdle but had discussed the situation with Jay Alves, the Rockies' vice president of communications and public relations. Feeney said she wanted to talk with Randolph but "would let him take a breath and get home." He was fired shortly after midnight PDT Tuesday in Anaheim, Calif., where the Mets had opened a western trip with a 9-6 victory over the Los Angeles Angels. That six-game trip concludes with three games at Coors Field, beginning Friday. Asked whether it was possible Randolph would remain on Hurdle�s staff even though he was not working, Feeney said, "I seriously doubt that would happen." Feeney said this is the first instance of a manager who was scheduled to be an All-Star coach being fired before the game. She cited two recent examples of managers who were All-Star coaches being fired soon after the game. Houston manager Jimy Williams was a National League coach when the game was played at Houston�s Minute Maid Park in 2004. The Astros fired Williams the day after the game. Two days after the 2002 All-Star Game in Milwaukee, the Cleveland Indians fired manager Charlie Manuel, who had been an American League coach.

[Guest AG/DC]

Well, Rick's lost his mind.

[metirish]

Peterson as philosophical as ever .

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Reached for comment as he arrived at the hotel, Dan Warthen refuted Peterson's allegations. "I'm more of a tibetan throw rug."

[Benjamin Grimm]

Well, right now the pitching coach has a choice of two nicknames: "Tuscany Tile" or "Wart Hen."

Most likely, neither will stick (only Valadius knows for sure) but I think I'd lean towards Tuscany Tile if I were him.

[metirish]

Well Dan Warthen really made a mess of things , asked at the hotel how he was going to fix the bullpen he said that would only take a few minutes , Jay Horowitz was seen shaking his head as he ushered him away.

[stevejrogers]

="soupcan":jwyzhyig] ="AG/DC":jwyzhyig]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:jwyzhyig] Cubs didn't knock the Giants out of the playoffs though. Methead Jun 17 2008 01:53 PM Unfortunately for Peterson, now he's more like the guy who stretches the little chain across the aisle to block it off while another guy uses a forklift to take something off a really high shelf. cooby Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM ="soupcan":1g82r3bd] ="AG/DC":1g82r3bd]Bob Lemon managed the 1982 AL all-star team, as skipper of the pennant-winning 1981 Yankees, after getting fired very early in that season. He wore the Yankee uniform.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Bob Lemon, Dick Howser, what's the difference? I guess I got the Dusty Baker and Bob Lemon stories mixed up.[/quote:1g82r3bd] Maybe because both names make you hungry Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 01:58 PM I got the above articles after doing a Google News search on "Willie Randolph." I just now refreshed the results page, and the Mets are just plain getting ripped all over the place, pretty much universally, for their handling of this. Words I'm seeing include "vicious," "gutless," "evil,", "classless," and "dysfunctional." I really do wonder who thought it was a good idea to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time? Why couldn't they have called a 9 a.m. (Pacific Time) press conference? Sure, maybe something would have leaked in the early hours today (perhaps when it was discovered that Oberkfell and Warthen were en route) but that wouldn't have been so bad at all. Not compared to the shitstorm they've kicked off. How could they not have known? I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:00 PM I wonder if that Lennon fellow has a perch at the airport to spy on the Mets, too? metirish Jun 17 2008 02:02 PM Yeah I thought Fred and Jeff were very image conscious yet they let this shit happen , is Horowitz responsible for this? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:05 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1k2k7ea6] I bet Bret Sabermetric is feeling very vindicated right now. This lives up to all of the extreme statements he used to make around here.[/quote:1k2k7ea6] If you criticize everything the Mets ever do you are bound to be right eventually Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Namor makes a good point. AG/DC Jun 17 2008 02:08 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 02:17 PM If they fired them last night, they needed to issue the press release last night, or else Willie or Peterson or �ieto can break the story. Maybe I have Castro's Disease, but isn't 3 AM midnight out there. And isn't that pretty much what time you'd expect after a 7:05 West Coast start goes 3:10 and then they talk to the victims at the hotel so as not to do it in front of their troops. I didn't like the Willie hiring. I don't like the firing or how it was done, but I think too much is being made of the last. How many were crying for the Mets to axe him or state outright that his job was safe? So they did. There's no way to do this that isn't ugly. Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM i'm fine with it. Manuel's Mets. Tonight. 10:05 PM. I'm ready. metirish Jun 17 2008 02:11 PM Excellent points there edgy , especially regarding the time difference. PatchyFogg Jun 17 2008 02:21 PM I'm not so sure that the timing of the firing was to avoid Father's Day, as much as it was to avoid being the 2nd Mets blunder on a June 15th. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 02:23 PM Hey Patchy! Long time/no time! (Or however that goes...) Do you really think that firing Willie was a "blunder"? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Six minutes to Omar ... this should be, um, er ...well it'll be something. cooby Jun 17 2008 02:56 PM Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 02:58 PM Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan? SteveJRogers Jun 17 2008 02:59 PM ="Frayed Knot":36fy43x9]Does this mean Kelly Ripa is no longer a fan?[/quote:36fy43x9] HA! Good question, does anyone know what team she was a Lovin' Big Shot for before 2005? But now she doesn't know people, BIG people! Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:00 PM ="cooby"]Five o'clock? Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars? So they can listen on WFAN maybe? I'm sure Mike and Dawg will be covering it. (I'm more sure that they'll have it than that SNY will.) Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM c: >>>Why does he do it when a lot of people are getting into their cars?<<< I read on Don Jennon's blog that it was so people had to listen on the radio and not watch on the tv. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:01 PM SNY is covering it, on Daily News Live. Omar will be standing in front of an Angels podium, with an Angels backdrop. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:02 PM 40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement? Nymr83 Jun 17 2008 03:04 PM ="Benjamin Grimm":1x5ho6d8]40 per cent of his words are "um" or "uh." He didn't have time to prepare a written statement?[/quote:1x5ho6d8] that WAS his written statement, if not there would have been 60-70% "ums" and "uhs" Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:06 PM Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM Although I'd prefer ask to ax. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:07 PM I think so too. But today he appears drunk. He's repeating himself like crazy. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:09 PM Probably didn't get much sleep. This is pointless if they can't mic up the questions from the gallery better. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 03:17 PM "I can tell you that, yes, Jerry Manuel will be the manager for the rest of the year." Kong76 Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Questions directed to Manuel seem to be a lot more audible on SNY than the one's that Omar fielded. G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 03:52 PM Alomar no longer third base coach, but bench coach. Hallelujah! John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 03:54 PM Jerry: Almost as good as Omar's been bad so far! Kong76 Jun 17 2008 04:00 PM Yeah, I like him so far. First words out of him were something like, "Adam, my brother, wazzzup?" G-Fafif Jun 17 2008 04:01 PM Wow, it's like listening to a baseball man, not a politician. Jay Horwitz had to have wished he brought one of those hooks from vaudeville listening to Omar. But Manuel's a godsend. If he manages like he talks, we might not suck nearly as much. Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2008 04:57 PM I agree. I'm very encouraged so far. Of course, we're all rooting for him to do so well that he's invited back, but now that feeling is stronger. Grote15 Jun 17 2008 05:18 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 18 2008 10:45 AM A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also and Howard Johnson will be the manager of your New York Mets starring Hojos best bud david Wright.D 2010 Carlos Gomez signed by Yankees AG/DC Jun 17 2008 05:41 PM I'll take that bet. (Now I need to figure out who Carlos Lopez is.) Rockin' Doc Jun 17 2008 06:42 PM Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought. metirish Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="KC":1z7nhqrc]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:1z7nhqrc] I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean? Liked what I heard from Manuel. SNY are doing an all out bonanza with special programming , Mets in Transition , even dragged Keith in from the street. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jun 17 2008 06:52 PM ="Grote15":hlktko6f]A year from now Omar will be gone..Reyes also[/quote:hlktko6f] I know this is just silliness, but I fear the stupidity in the Mets' front office. I sometimes feel like they are acutely attuned to the dumbest impulses of their fan base; who are, in turn, easily swayed by the idiot New York sports columnists and radio hosts. Wallace Matthews said something a few weeks ago about how Reyes has been more Rey Ordonez than Derek Jeter and Mike & the Mad Dog had him all but traded to Toronto for Vernon Wells and David Eckstein the other day. I know I should just ignore such lunatic morons, but I fear they can poison a portion of this town into believing something ridiculous, which could then catch the attention of the not-too-bright Wilpons. Reyes is a gift from the baseball gods. I don't know why they gave him to us, but they did. Fans might go their whole lives and only be able to root for one or two stars who shine like he does, and that's if they're lucky. A guy who runs like Hermes and throws like Apollo and plays shortstop. For the Dusty Baker types, he hustles and scraps and gets his uniform dirty. For the Billy Beane types, he gets on base and hits for power and steals at an 80% clip. He's a plus on defense, he's a plus on offense, he's a plus on the basepaths and he doesn't seem like a jerk. He's a home grown talent that we were privileged to watch grow up before our eyes, and when he's gone we'll have a Jose Reyes-shaped hole in our baseball souls. I know no sane GM would ever trade a player like him, but as I watch Scott Kazmir shoot lightning from his left hand (right now he's 2-hitting the Cubs through 4 2/3) sometimes I worry that some worm-tongue will get into a Wilpon's mind and conspire to take Reyes away from us. Like Borat once said, "Yes, I fear!" AG/DC Jun 17 2008 06:53 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 17 2008 07:39 PM ="Rockin' Doc":1jslk0em]Carlos Lopez/Fernando Martinez the man was on a rant. He couldn't be bothered with details, accuracy, or thought.[/quote:1jslk0em] Punctuation is also apparently a luxury. What street did they find Keef on? Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:06 PM irish: >>>I thought under stress today he reverted back to his old habits , knowwhatimean?<<< Yeah, I don't know why I even jumped to his defense ... especially here. Sometimes I forget where I'm posting and was thinking maybe jeez let's not let's jump on the guy's English when he's obviously bettering himself on that front. 'kay? OK? 'kay? -- he needs to work on that next. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:08 PM I'll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK? John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM ="KC":zwyu84pq]Omar's public speaking skills have improved markedly imho.[/quote:zwyu84pq] Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:17 PM irish: >>>'ll work on my punctuation if Omar works on his K's , OK?<<< I don't know what you mean, I was joking. Kong76 Jun 17 2008 07:25 PM lunchgrabber: >>>Oh, it was pitiful. I was cringing<<< I said that in the first five minutes or so. His public speaking has improved a lot, English wise. That was a long and and painful thing to listen to and watch as it evolved. metirish Jun 17 2008 07:28 PM I then saw Omar give an interview in German and I must say he has improved a great deal. Frayed Knot Jun 17 2008 08:36 PM ="AG/DC":3cc9wicn]What street did they find Keef on?[/quote:3cc9wicn] Main Street in Sag Harbor most likely. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:11 AM ="AG/DC"]OK, I'll bite. What would be the purpose of trying to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages? The purpose would be to avoid Tuesday morning's back pages, I suppose. New Motto for the Mets: 'This Ain't About Love' By TIM MARCHMAN June 18, 2008 "This ain't about love," Mets general manager Omar Minaya wants you to know. "We're trying to win a championship." At a press conference in Anaheim yesterday, much of which he spent unconvincingly claiming that Mets ownership had nothing to do with the Monday night massacre that claimed the jobs of manager Willie Randolph, pitching coach Rick Peterson, and first base coach Tom Nieto, Minaya went all-in. Having to defend the indefensible � coming just past midnight Pacific time after a win on the first game of a road trip, the firings seemed timed to keep the news off the back pages of the tabloids for a day and made an instant martyr of the inept Randolph � Minaya was not content merely to say that he had assembled a team that should have won this year, but said outright that he thinks his team still can win. "I feel that we have a championship team," he said. "We have talent to do that." In the sense that any major league team has the talent to win a championship, this is true. As Minaya spoke, his team was 61/2 games behind Philadelphia for the division lead and seven behind St. Louis for the wild-card lead. At the same time a year ago, the Yankees were 81/2 games out of first place, the Chicago Cubs were 61/2 games out, and Colorado was 51/2 games behind. Those three teams all ended up playing in October; and given the circumstances, there's no need to dwell on where Philadelphia placed in the standings as of last September 12. The Mets are, in theory, far from done. To believe that the Mets have a serious chance at winning is, though, to venture far from the fields of probability and into the fields of faith � always a bad bet, given that, as the great band the Minutemen reminded us, even God bows to math. Going into last night's games, Philadelphia was 42-30, and the Mets were 34-35. Were the Phillies to play .500 ball the rest of the year, the Mets would need to go 54-39 the rest of the way to surpass them. That works out to a winning percentage of .581, a 94-win pace over the course of a full season. Certainly the Mets could play that well, just as I could be the beneficiary of a giant bag of $100 bills falling out of the sky, but over the last calendar year, the team is 85-81, and since the beginning of 2007, they're 107-100. The evidence suggests that they're slightly better than a .500 team � capable of going on a league-shredding tear, but unlikely to do so. It should be noted as well that even if they do win 58% of their games for the rest of the year, which would leave them with 88 wins, it will hardly guarantee them a playoff berth. Philadelphia is well capable of winning more than half their games over the rest of the year, and only twice has a team won the wild card with fewer than 90 wins. Any kind of independent analysis foretells a grim fate for the Mets. Baseball Prospectus calculates that the Mets have a 9% chance of winning the division; going by oddschecker.com, offshore bookmakers give them 9-2 odds. Even figuring in the wild card, the Mets have, to be generous, a one-in-five chance of making the playoffs. The problem for Mets fans is that while Minaya may be drawing to an inside straight, and facing long odds in doing so, he's pot committed: Whatever the odds of the team playing in October are, they're higher than the odds of the GM keeping his job if the team finishes out of the money. He thus has every incentive to forge bravely onward, chasing his vanishing chance of success. The Wilpon family, which owns the Mets, also has every reason to run after any fleeting shot at victory. If the team makes a miraculous comeback, it will guarantee the team millions, and perhaps tens of millions, in playoff revenue, while assuring them of still more cash in years to come as the turnstiles turn and the people tune in to Mets games on SNY. Thus, even if in some abstract sense the best thing for the team would be to shop Oliver Perez, Billy Wagner, and perhaps even Carlos Beltran for young talent, doing so would benefit no one with any stake in the game. This being the dynamic, the question is basically whether new manager Jerry Manuel might actually pull off the improbable and engineer a raging run at first. It may be a long shot, but longer shots have landed. What the Mets do have going for them is that a lot of their best players have more in them than they've given. Perez has been execrable, while John Maine has been average. Beltran and David Wright can hit better than they have to date; Pedro Martinez is healthy-ish. If all these core players just revert to their usual selves, the Mets will improve. Even Johan Santana, who's been Cy Young-worthy so far, has more in him than Mets fans have seen; the traditionally slow starter has been on fire over his last three games, and may well be on course for some preposterous stretch of a dozen straight games in which he gives up two or fewer runs. He's done it before. Conversely, there are few players who can be expected to be much worse than they've been. Jose Reyes is hitting near the top of his range, but not over his head; he can be counted on. Meanwhile, the team has treaded water with Moises Alou and Ryan Church hurt, Carlos Delgado hitting as well as Luis Castillo, a bench populated by decrepit second basemen and third-string catchers scraping unfathomed depths, and Aaron Heilman invoking fond hopes for the return of Guillermo Mota. Anything approaching health or improvement from this part of the roster will give the team a real boost. If all of this amounts to saying that the Mets will be good if lots of players who have played well play better while others who haven't played well play less badly, that's because that's what it would take for the Mets to be any good. There are short odds of any of this happening, let alone all of it, which is why the team rates as a cosmic joke, an epic botch to rate with anything we've seen out of Madison Square Garden the last several years, and why in a sensible world the whole thing would be blown up with high explosives. No secret midnight firing, no epically lame press conference, and no shameful, cowardly, Dolanish conduct on behalf of ownership can change what this team is. Their only hope is the rawest of raw luck, and not only isn't it coming, they don't deserve it. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 02:15 AM Front page Willie. G-Fafif Jun 18 2008 03:10 AM John Koblin in the Observer, he who captured those damning "we're too good to care" quotes last September, frames the malaise...and will quote anybody in doing so: ]But the 2008 team has been disappointing in a totally unfamiliar way. They are boring and unenthusiastic and, as far as their famously passionate fans are concerned, they don�t inspire much of any emotion at all. �This year, I just don�t care if they win or lose,� said Greg Prince, the 45-year-old co-author of the Mets blog, Faith and Fear in Flushing. �This hasn�t happened to me before. You know what really bothers me? I think for so many Mets fans, the Mets are their identity. I�m not a religious person, and I�m not a God-and-country guy. So if I�m a Mets fan, and if I don�t care if they lose, I start thinking, �Am I doing this right anymore? Am I a bad fan for not caring?�� themetfairy Jun 18 2008 05:00 AM Whoah - FAFIF is no longer our best kept secret! AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:15 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 26 2008 03:49 PM I understand Greg's position. We all wonder if we give too much to this abstract idea, and few give more than Greg. But I'm still scratching my head. I didn't want Willie fired. Others did. He's fired. What's the real issue? Did they tell him he was safe and then shoot him in the back of the head? Never in New York history? How can that be anything less than a Yankee whitewash? It sucks. I want a team that's proactive, rather than reactive. And that's what this move is. But the fan base has been calling for blood for months. The management gives them some and they turn on management? We got cleon jones bouncing in and out of threads looking for more blood. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:16 AM More Front Page Willie: Benjamin Grimm Jun 18 2008 07:25 AM This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. metirish Jun 18 2008 07:29 AM Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. ] Ratting out Randolph Were a poll to be taken Tuesday, you can rest assured that New Yorkers would be of two minds about the ownership of the New York Mets - the debate being whether to rank the Wilpons above or below the subway rat on the scale of urban vermin. It's a tough question, considering how the Wilpons and the genus Rattus norvegicus are given to slinking in the dark. Charitable types that we are, we give a slight edge to Fred and Jeff Wilpon in that the genus Jerkus gigantus does not transmit rabies, so far as anyone knows. But, damn, those Wilpons can be repulsive creatures, as New York has just seen in how they gave Willie Randolph the boot. In the middle of the night. In California. Sure, GM Omar Minaya says he made the call to fire Randolph - but do you believe for a second that the Wilpons did not okay the gutless, graceless method of execution? Whatever his managerial shortcomings, Randolph has been aces since long before he became the first African-American to manage in the city, since long before he took the field at second for the Yankees. Up from Brooklyn, Randolph unfailingly conducted himself with class. Not so the Wilpons. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better? Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 07:35 AM It's as if the writers are more pissed off at the timing, not because it was particularly cruel to Willie, but because it didn't occur at an hour convenient to them. Lots of stuff to question here but the time of day shouldn't be one of them. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 07:37 AM There are more than enough reasons to not buy the News. That they blow things out of proportion to sell papers is, well, not news. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:39 AM ="Benjamin Grimm"]This whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion. I don't think the Mets late-night press release was evil or cowardly or anything like that. They were clueless, in that they didn't foresee how it would look to issue a press release at 3 a.m. New York time. They can rightfully be criticized for bumbling, both in allowing the prolonged deathwatch and for the late night press release. But to think that the Mets tried to "sneak" the firing past anybody at 3 a.m. is ludicrous. There was never even the slightest possibility that the firing would go unnoticed, no matter where or when it was announced. The Mets weren't being sneaky, just naive in underestimating the New York media, and the media, in turn, overreacted. The Daily News this morning had page after page of writers and columnists and fans expressing their anger and display at the Mets' "cowardly act." And the media will continue to beat this drum for as long as it will sell papers. It's nuts. It's like the insane overreaction to Mahmoud Ahmajinedad's appearance at Columbia University last year. They're bound and determined to ferment the outrage, to make us care deeply about something relatively inconsequential. And they know how to do it, too. Post of the season! Couldn't agree more. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:44 AM I rarely take the Wilpon's side but this whole Midnight Massacre thing venom is, to me, an overblown NY media frenzy. Where does it say that a Manager can't get fired less than two hours after the end of a game? Or was Omar supposed to walk into the dugout and relieve Willie during the seventh inning stretch so that Willie could catch an earlier flight back to NY? Three o'clock in the morning? That's just spin. It was midnight local time and that's the only time that counts. Otherwise, I'll tell you about my cousin who was on a cruise ship in the middle of the Atlantic when Willie got fired . He's doubly pissed about the whole affair. Or one point seven pissed. It was five o'clock in the morning my cousin's time. The Mets weren't obligated to notify their East Coast followers of the firing before bedtime. And as far as Willie's concerned, he was wide awake at midnight local time, and would've been so whether or not he stayed. Because in the baseball universe in which Mets players and coaches exist, Willie's last game - a night game - was followed by another night game. And in that context, any Met could've decided to stay awake till six or seven in the morning and still have enough time to get a full night' sleep (assuming you want to call it a full night's sleep being that it's hypothetically beginning after sunrise) and arrive at the stadium on time for the next night game. West Coast firing? Willie was fired far from home? So what. It's an occupational risk. Firings are never pleasant. What matters is how the Mets will compete over the remainder of the season and whether Manuel is competent. All the rest is noise. Gwreck Jun 18 2008 07:48 AM ="metirish":3aij0dcp]Seriously I don't think I am buying the Snooze anymore , today beat all out. The Daily news saw fit to editorialize on the Randolph firing. I might start buying the NY Sun, is that any better?[/quote:3aij0dcp] No. If you want better, you'll have to switch to the NY Times. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 07:50 AM Did everybody decide to write the same post during the last 20 minutes? Methead Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM The Dugout Chat knows how it all transpired. Transcript here[/url:twomty35] John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 07:59 AM This is about Madden and his hard-on for 1970s Yankees. It informs the DN's entire sports-page POV. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:00 AM I can take this from Jon Stewart, because he's bleeding with us - AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:12 AM He's not with me. He's perpetuating the myth because it makes a better story and better comedy. Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:18 AM ="AG/DC"]Willie was not fired at three o'clock in the morning. He was fired around the 11 o'clock hour, while baseball men are still wide awake and operating. YES, YES, YES! Why is this hard for people to see?! He was fired at 11:00ish after the game. That's when managers get fired! Arrrrgh. themetfairy Jun 18 2008 08:24 AM Kevin Burkhardt reported that the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time. That's still the middle of the night in my book. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:31 AM Which is around the 11 o'clock hour, is certainly not three in the morning, and is about the time a manager might get back to the hotel. If the firing is unseemly, then it's unseemly. But the method it was done seems so typically typical of an in-season firing that it's banal. Frayed Knot Jun 18 2008 08:32 AM ]the firing occurred at 12:15 am local time -- That's still the middle of the night in my book. Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that. John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 18 2008 08:46 AM There are a dozen Met fans here funnier than Jon Stewart. soupcan Jun 18 2008 08:59 AM You're sweet. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM ="Frayed Knot":2mqm1e0q]Except if you hold a job where the working hours are typically mid-afternoon to around 11PM. In that world 12:15 is known as the end of the working day. Besides, 12:15 is when they sent out the press release. The discussions with the particulars occured a short time before that.[/quote:2mqm1e0q] Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:07 AM Not you. soupcan Jun 18 2008 09:11 AM Ouch. Centerfield Jun 18 2008 09:13 AM Not me either. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 09:20 AM Well, sheesh. If you two don't count, who could he mean? There's Rogers, sure, but he's not a Met fan. seawolf17 Jun 18 2008 09:35 AM No, CF counts. Remember Latvia? themetfairy Jun 18 2008 09:41 AM ="seawolf17":35mwt1ys]No, CF counts. Remember Latvia?[/quote:35mwt1ys] Every time I hear about Latvia, I think of CF. batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2008 06:37 PM Quotes, Comments, and Excerpts on The Midnight Massacre +1 ]Jose Reyes might just as well have spit in his new manager's face, right there on the field. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]Less than two hours after the Mets defeated the Angels on Monday night, the announcement of Randolph's firing was released to the media -- timing that Paul Lo Duca, another former Met, called "unprofessional." Chico Harlan, Washington Post ]Wright credited Randolph for helping him blossom into one of the game's best young players, but appeared eager to move on with Manuel in charge. "I'll forever be grateful for Willie for giving me the opportunity to continue my development as a young player," Wright said. "He took this team to a different level while he was here. But that being said, I'm excited about what Jerry can bring to the table." Bart Hubbuch NY Post ]That is what constitutes being a good general manager around here, taking the bullets for the boss until the day the boss steps out of the shadows and puts one in you. Minaya knows this, having seen Steve Phillips pull the same routine eight years ago, squirming uncomfortably while painting Alex Rodriguez as a "24-and-1 guy" to cover up the truth: that his boss, Fred Wilpon, didn't want to spend the money. We know how well that worked out for Phillips and we know how it will eventually work out for Minaya.... After all, for Jeff Wilpon, the Mets' cuckoo COO, time was running out.... If he didn't nip this in the bud now, the Mets might make a run and he'd never get to do what he has been aching to do since October 2006. Jeff Wilpon would never get to can the manager. There really is no other explanation for the timing of Randolph's firing�. [A] source closely connected to the heated infighting over Randolph's future told me on Monday, "Jeff has been remorseless in his desire to get rid of Willie." That desire went back to the 2006 NLCS, after which Wilpon looked back at the series - Billy Wagner blowing a key save, Aaron Heilman giving up a game-winning home run in Game 7 and Beltran staring at a season-ending 3-2 curveball with the bases loaded - and determined that Willie Randolph was the problem. "[Jeff] is a reactive young man," the source said. "He thinks he is the baseball expert, and he decided that Willie was not the guy to lead this club...." He's also the source of most of the leaks to the media recently that the manager was on thin ice, which rendered somewhat laughable Minaya's contention that questions about Randolph's job status were becoming too much of a distraction for his continued employment.... Consequently, the Mets turned an easy firing into the front-office equivalent of blowing a seven-game lead in September. Under Jeff Wilpon's expert guidance, the Mets made the Yankees' divorce from Joe Torre look like a family retirement party. Now, they hand the whole mess over to Jerry Manuel, who seems like a nice enough guy but obviously the wrong choice. Still out there is Gary Carter, who seems like a perfect fit: a confirmed backstabber and schemer who campaigned publicly for Randolph's job last month while he was still the manager. How Jeff Wilpon missed out on a soul mate like that is almost as baffling as the firing of Willie Randolph. Wallace Matthews, Newsday ]NEW YORK (AP) � Willie Randolph figured the New York Mets would fire someone. He just didn't think general manager Omar Minaya would pick him. "I thought he was talking about whacking a couple of my coaches," the ex-manager told several New York-area newspapers Wednesday outside his home in Franklin Lakes, N.J. "That's why I was stunned. I didn't think it was going to happen," Randolph said. "At the time, I felt the way he was talking to me, that I was pretty secure for the time being...." "Not the way I would have handled it," he said. "Bottom line, it is what it is." Willie Randolph, Associated Press ]The five-hour long flight from Los Angeles to New York provides ample time for introspection. Especially if you�re Willie Randolph, now the former Mets manager. Dismissed from his job after the Mets beat the Los Angeles Angels on Monday in Anaheim, Randolph arrived back home in New Jersey late Tuesday, his head still swimming from being told by Mets General Manager Omar Minaya that he was no longer the manager of the Mets. In a telephone interview Tuesday night, Randolph said he remained stunned by the dismissal, which took place in Minaya�s hotel room. �I didn�t see this coming,� he said. �When I spoke to Omar the day before I knew there might be some changes, but I got the feeling I was safe.� Or at least, Randolph added, safe until the next Mets-Yankees series, which takes place the last weekend of June, or the All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium, which takes place in the middle of July. On Sunday, as the Mets split a doubleheader at Shea Stadium with the Texas Rangers, Randolph said that he asked Minaya to pull the trigger, if that�s what Minaya had in mind, and not have Randolph travel all the way across the country to Anaheim. �I actually asked him. I said, �Omar, do this now. If you�re going to do this, do this now. I know you�ve got a lot of pressure on you, but if I�m not the guy to lead this team then don�t let me get on this plane.� I did say that to him.� �I just told Willie that I want to have closure by the end of this trip,� Minaya said Wednesday when asked to respond to Randolph�s assertion that he told Minaya he did not want to get on the plane if his dismissal was imminent. The trip the Mets are now on ends Sunday in Colorado, with the Mets then returning to Shea on Monday night to play Seattle. Minaya has also stated that he was not sure what he was going to do about Randolph when he went to sleep Sunday night and that he did not make up his mind until Monday... Asked if he thought his dismissal was entirely Minaya�s idea, as the general manager is contending, Randolph said: �I have my doubts. Let�s just leave it at that. I have my doubts.� At his Tuesday news conference in Anaheim, Minaya was asked if he thought Randolph had been treated shabbily by the Mets organization. He said he did not think that was the case. But asked if he thought �shabby� was too strong a word to characterize his treatment, Randolph chuckled, and said: �That�s not strong enough.� Wiliam Rhoden, NY Times Kong76 Jun 18 2008 06:58 PM CF, Latvia ... lol, Baltic Bomber humor never gets old. AG/DC Jun 18 2008 08:58 PM If you made up Wallace Matthews, I'd think he was too un-realistic a character. Vince Coleman Firecracker Jul 23 2008 08:52 PM Fred Wilpon takes the blame[/url:5bclim2i] for how Willie's firing went down. Or not. I kinda think he is really just pointing the finger at Omar. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 27 2008 08:25 PM Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding. SteveJRogers Dec 27 2008 09:22 PM ="John Cougar Lunchbucket":20ivi8ic]Bump. I nominate this for the 2008 Craney Award. If you have 10 minutes read it top to bottom. I'll also put it up against any other medium's take on this incident for humor and insight and understanding.[/quote:20ivi8ic] The thing is also that the whole incident is one "card" the anti-Wilpons or anti-Met people, whether fan or media member, will use forever to deride the Mets or the Wilpons as being classless; As in "Yeah, but we've never had a guy fly 3,000 miles only to fire him at night and fly all the way back." Like the argument over the 2004 ALCS vs 7 up with 17 to play (Which seems like this board actually is the only place where 7 up with 17 to play is NOT considered the greatest collapse in the history of sports period, but that is another topic), it is one more burden that Met fans have to put up with when arguing with other fans, or people that just don't know the whole story. metirish Dec 27 2008 09:27 PM The thing is that was a fun read over. A Boy Named Seo Dec 27 2008 10:03 PM Where the hell is Roblatt? TransMonk Dec 29 2008 03:27 PM I like how the embedded Newsday cover shows today's news. Edgy DC Dec 29 2008 06:25 PM Bam! ="seawolf17"] "Well, Joe, I'm just saying I'm available. In fact, I'm actually on a flight to Anaheim right now, and I brought my big box of manager stuff." Kong76 Dec 29 2008 06:57 PM Good bump, good nomination, and good illustration of 'bucket's sig line. John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 29 2008 08:27 PM ="batmagadanleadoff":2u8um23g][ Once you get past the Midnight Massacre hype, firing Willie was one of the smartest things the Wilpons ever did. Here are my top four or five smartest things the Wilpons ever did, in no particular order: 1. Firing Willie Randolph 2. Firing Dallas Green 3. Firing Art Howe 4. Firing Jeff Torborg[/quote:2u8um23g] This response didn't get enough lolove.