Hall of Fame Voting: This Year, Next Year, and Beyond

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ted Giannoulas.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Edgy DC wrote: Ted Giannoulas.

That's the San Diego Chicken, right?

I don't think he deserves an official plaque in the Hall, but I definitely think he deserves some kind of recognition in Cooperstown.

[Guest sharpie]

When they open the Mascots Wing the Chicken and Mr. Met go in together.

Then they close the Wing.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think the Chicken's costume has already been displayed. It certainly was part of the touring Baseball as America exhibit. But the guy who made it happen deserves recognition.

I don't want to blaspheme, but I think the whole place needs to be reconceptualized.

• The Hall of Fame itself, apart from the museum --- the hall of plaques --- is anti-climactic to me. Those plaques should be integrated with the exhibits. I'm thinking perhaps of a large locker-room type layout, with each inductee's artifacts exhibited along with his plaque in a locker with his name over it.



• They need outdoor exhibits and interactive exhibits also. Give me a 3D experience that shows me what it was like to hang in there against Nolan Ryan's fastball, Bert Blyleven's curve, and Phil Niekro's knuckler.



• It would also be coolio if the Hall of Fame game was an actual official game.



• Oh, yeah, hire former big-leaguers as docents.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Four great ideas.

I don't mean to blaspheme either, but the last time I was at Cooperstown, the Hall and Museum was a letdown. It was magical when I first went at the age of 12 (I think) and I enjoyed it the second time, when I was 21, but on my third and final visit (in 1991) I was 28 and it all seemed kind of flat. A lot of shoes and gloves and stuff. Now, at age 44, I'm a lot more jaded than I was at 28. I don't expect to ever go back to Cooperstown unless I happen to be in the area for some other reason. (I wouldn't avoid the Hall, I just wouldn't make a special trip.)

[Valadius]

I've never understood why the Hall of Fame game didn't count for anything. Making it an official game would indeed be pretty cool. I think the Hall ought to possibly double in size - there are plenty of baseball artifacts that can't be seen because the Hall is physically too small. There also should be larger exhibits for each team. An outdoor exhibit where you can play baseball using 1880s rules a la Jim Bouton's league (though in the interest of safety, maybe with modern gloves) would kick ass.

[Willets Point]

Rather than double in size, make branch hall of fames in big cities like New York, Chicago or Los Angeles.

[MFS62]

Willets Point wrote: Rather than double in size, make branch hall of fames in big cities like New York, Chicago or Los Angeles.

Good idea.

And if you're going to do that, how about St. Louis? And Boston?

Or, they could do what they did with the Viet Nam memorial wall - they could build a mini - Hall and have it travel around to each of the major league ballparks and stay there for a full 3 or 4 game series.
And if that is successful, have it visit the minor league parks.

Also- my idea for resolving the "team hat" problem for players who spent substantial time with multiple franchises - have holographic emblems on their plaque hats, which change teams based on how you view them.

Later

[Frayed Knot]

They did have a traveling exhibit a few years back.
With more stuff in their possession than they can display at any one time, they took part of their booty on the road to various cities for week-long stops.

My guess is that they don't want to do that too often for fear that it'll lessen the appeal for the real thing.

[seawolf17]

It wouldn't lessen the appeal, it would destroy the appeal. Cooperstown's a nice little city, but really, there's not much else there. Yeah, you have your other museums and your opera house and whatever, but really? If you had full-time satellite Halls, nobody'd ever go to C-Town except for inductions.

[Willets Point]

Cooperstown is a cute town but it's in the butt end of nowhere and the whole HOF story is built on a lie. I don't think that having another HOF in say St. Louis, Chicago, or Los Angeles would make the HOF in Cooperstown any more of a poorly thought out bad idea for Major League Baseball.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Baseball wasn't invented in Cooperstown, but it should have been.

Baseball's urban roots are just as prominent as it's pastoral roots, but, spiritually, it's a pastoral game and I like the idea that a game played most prominently in big towns leads fans to make pilgrimages to small towns like Cooperstown, New York and Dyersville, Iowa.

[RealityChuck]

Better in Cooperstown than the Hockey Hall of Fame, which is essentially in a shopping mall in downtown Toronto.

[Valadius]

Jim Thome hit his 500th career home run today - a game-winner, no less.

Do you think Jim Thome is a Hall of Famer?

In my opinion, he JUST makes it. This pushes him over the line into Cooperstown.

[metsmarathon]

if he gets in at 500, he should've been in at 499.

[Vic Sage]

Jim Thome
Black Ink - 13 (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink - 112 (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards - 49.3 (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor - 127.5 (Likely HOFer > 100; VERY likely HOFer >130)

He's borderline.
He's the type of guy that will be hurt by being a DH much of the time.

[HahnSolo]

Interesting argument, is Thome.

500 HRs
11 years of 30+ Home Runs
9 years of 100+ RBI
9 years .400+ OBP
8 years of 100+ runs scored

And he's only been a full-time DH two years (06-07), so I don't think that will hurt him much.

But,
He's below 2000 career hits (which he will pass if he plays another year).

[seawolf17]

Not enough for Thome, I think. He'll get votes, but won't sniff 75%. He'll be lucky to hit 40%.

[Valadius]

Let me throw another name out there - Juan Gonzalez.

He was one of the best hitters of the 90's - he won two MVP's for God's sake!

Yet now people seem to dismiss him in Hall discussion. What gives?

For the record, the only people with multiple MVP awards who aren't in the Hall, excluding active players (Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Frank Thomas) are Juan Gonzalez, Dale Murphy (who, after looking at his stats, now gets my vote) and Roger Maris (who doesn't deserve it under any circumstances).

[Guest Edgy DC]

Shouldn't some of these guys be on an actual ballot before we decry the injustice of them not getting elected?

[seawolf17]

Nah, it's more fun to debate it now.

No way Juan Gonzalez even comes close to the HoF. Jim Thome will get more votes than he will.

[Valadius]

The reason Juan Gonzalez doesn't immediately leap out numbers-wise as a shoo-in Hall of Famer is because he was injured a LOT. He only had 12 seasons in which he played 82 games or more. But I think there's a reason that the Hall of Fame specifies that you had to play at least 10 major league seasons before you can be considered eligible. Let's call it the Ralph Kiner Exception. Some players might be so good in a short timespan that they're Hall-worthy, but injuries or the like end their career prematurely or cut huge chunks out of it.

Juan Gonzalez's last productive year was in 2003, when he was 33. Consider that. His career was really over when he was just 33 years old. In essentially 13 seasons, some of which he missed a lot of time, he hit over 400 homers and had nearly 1,400 RBI, a plateau he passed by virtue of his playing in bits of 4 other seasons. I'd compare his numbers from his 10 best years against most Hall of Famers and he'd probably end up looking very favorably.

[seawolf17]

You know? Now that I look at Gonzo's numbers... dude had some sick seasons. You do forget about it because of the injuries, though. And that's why he won't make it.

Thome's still a better bet.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

I think Thome goes in. He'll be in the mid-500s before he actually hangs 'em up. There would have to be a major 'road discovery for him to be detrailed.

I'd vote for Dale Murphy in a heartbeat.

Juan Gonzalez is an interesting case. He was traded here to the Tigers before the last year of his contract, and the team offered him a $148 million mega-deal. He rejected it, and people here went nuts.

But I couldn't blame him. There are really very few points in their careers when they get a big say in where they get to play. The Tigers at the time were a horrible team in a horrible city and and a horrible, brand-new ballpark. More power to him for saying, "I have enough money, and I'd rather take less to play somewhere else."

Not saying that will get him a plaque, but I respected it.

[metirish]

] "I have enough money, and I'd rather take less to play somewhere else."

Is that how things went down,did he not think that he would get a comparable contract with a team that had a better hitters ball park,I seem to remember him being pretty stupid for turning down that money.

[Willets Point]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I think Thome goes in. He'll be in the mid-500s before he actually hangs 'em up. There would have to be a major 'road discovery for him to be detrailed.

Perhaps the Road to El Dorado?

[Vic Sage]

Juan Gonzalez

Black Ink - 17 (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink - 105 (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards - 39.1 (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor - 120.5 (Likely HOFer > 100; VERY likely HOFer >130)

I'd say Thome has a better shot, and Thome is borderline.
Plus, Juan Gone was largely perceived by the press (ie, the HOF voters) as an a-hole.

[Vic Sage]

Dale Murphy

Black Ink - 31 (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink - 147 (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards - 34.3 (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor - 115.5 (Likely HOFer > 100; VERY likely HOFer >130)

Murphy has a good argument to be in the HOF, with numbers better than the average HOFer in 3 of these 4 categories. From 1980-87, he was one of the best players in baseball. It was just that his career completely collapsed after age 31, playing all or part of 6 more seasons as a strictly sub-par player. He had a high peak, but a precipitous drop. But i do think he should get more attention than he does.

[seawolf17]

I think Dale Murphy (and Jim Rice, and Andre Dawson) are no-brainer HOFs to me. (The voters have not agreed.)

[Valadius]

See, I think you should be able to look at players in two ways - total career stats and a minimum of 10 best consecutive seasons. Again, I call it the Ralph Kiner Exception. So let me compare Juan Gonzalez with a random Hall of Famer. Say Reggie Jackson. Let's take Juan Gone's best years, heck let's do his numbers from when he was 21 to when he was 33, which essentially was his career:

Gonzalez
424 HR
1368 RBI
1866 hits
1027 R
374 2B

Now let's take Jackson's numbers for the same period in his life:

Jackson
369 HR
1120 RBI
1720 hits
1051 R
323 2B

You might make a point that Jackson was barely in the bigs at 21, and you'd be right. But let's look at the at-bats between the two for the same time:

Gonzalez - 6278 AB
Jackson - 6349 AB

So Jackson got 71 more at-bats than Gonzalez did during the same time in their lives, and Gonzalez put up better numbers.

I don't have time now to go and shift Jackson's seasons we look at here up by one, from 21 to 33 to 22 to 34, but I can tell immediately that Gonzalez still ends up putting up better numbers.