Armando Revisited (split from IGT 5/29)

[Guest Edgy DC]

I think all closers on teams that are up or down by ten or more games have an advantage in the frustation department over closers on teams that are dogfighting year-in year-out for a post-season spot.

[Centerfield]

I really don't know why it seems like Benitez sucks so bad. Looking at his stats, he is 9 of 11 in save opportunities...his only blown saves coming against the Mets.

And for those who say he can't handle pitching against his old team, prior to these last two games, he was 14 of 15 in saves with a 1.42 ERA.

[Willets Point]

Maybe it's just that when he sucks he sucks in a big way.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I imagine no pitcher had ever done as well against his former team as Armando in 2004.

 G  GS  CG SHO  GF  SV  Op  IP     H  BFP  HR   R  ER  BB  IB  SO  SH  SF  WP HBP  BK  2B  3B GDP ROE   W   L    ERA
12   0   0   0  12  11  11  13.1   4   44   1   1   1   0   0  12   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0   0.68

[Centerfield]

It's amazing isn't it? You can post those stats but almost no one has any memory of those games every happening. All I'm hearing today is how Armando can't handle pitching against the Mets.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Mets team OPS against Mando: .250.

[Centerfield]

And I don't mean to imply I'm somehow above this. I saw Armando warming in the pen yesterday and thought to myself "We can get to him." It's so strange.

Anyway, how about the Mets against closers this year? Chad Cordero, Ryan Dempster, Valverde, the Rockies guy...all of them are our bitches.

[stevejrogers]

Centerfield wrote: It's amazing isn't it? You can post those stats but almost no one has any memory of those games every happening. All I'm hearing today is how Armando can't handle pitching against the Mets.

I think the perception of Armando has changed because this is a different Met team than the one he faced as a Marlin in 2004. Not to mention the 06-07 Giants are drastically different than the defending champ Marlins.

[seawolf17]

Not only did I think "we can get him," I could actually visualize the loss. I woke my wife up and told her Carlos Delgado was about to hit the ball 600 feet.

I definitely remember 2004 -- dude made us look BAD. But he's still Armando.

[soupcan]

The problem with 'Mando I think is that he had a few blown saves in high profile situations while with the Mets. He got himself an undeserved choker reputation because of those, and then every save after that that he blew (even thoughh there weren't many) were 'big' games. Ignoring the fact of course that any blown save is usually a story because they don't happen nearly as often as a save

When he did and does close out a game successfuly no one cares because that's what he's supposed to do.

Does the casual Mets fan even know that Wagner is 12-12 right now?

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

What the casual fan doesn't know is that in their primes Mando was every bit the closer Wagner is, or than Wagner has been on the hill for several legendary big-game chokes for the Astros.

[Guest Edgy DC]

The only way to escape Mando's sitation is to be so far ahead or behind so as to avoid high-profile situations.

]I think the perception of Armando has changed because this is a different Met team than the one he faced as a Marlin in 2004. Not to mention the 06-07 Giants are drastically different than the defending champ Marlins.

This is that shifting argument stuff. None of that has anything to do with the inherent character flaws he's accused of having because he's a choker who can't beat his former team or do well in New York or whatever.

The Mets are doing well against a lot of closers. Stopping the Mets team from scoring a single run in the ninth with Jose Reyes leading off and the world's most prolific balk-caller umping first is no easy task for anybody.

[Willets Point]

We probably should split off some posts for an "Armando Revisited" thread.

[soupcan]

]We probably should split off some posts for an "Armando Revisited" thread.

Do it.


[/code]

[seawolf17]

Isn't that part of the dilemma of the modern closer, though? You fail four times over the course of a six-month season, and that's all that's remembered.

Armando played in a big market, with some big blowups in big games... so those are going to be remembered. Some of us remember Wagner blowing up in Houston and Philly, but most folks didn't see those games, because they weren't always against the Mets.

Part of Benitez' problem was what you saw the other night... he gets over-emotional. Things started to not go his way, and it always seemed like whenever that happened, he got too amped up and tried to throw 120 MPH. Problem is, he starts leaving balls flat out over the plate. Sometimes they get hit 500 feet, like Delgado did; sometimes guys swing through them; and sometimes guys get under them and hit weak fly balls. Those go in the "save" column, and they're largely forgotten. Most of the time, that's how it happens, which is why he saves 40 games a year. The blowups are just magnified.

[Gwreck]

I'm convinced that adding to Benitez' problems was that during his heyday, the best closer...EVER was also in his heyday.

Seriously. Many Mets fans, whether they'll admit it or not, have their view influenced by the constant media attention and praise associated with Rivera. The perception of him as infallible, I think, caused people to have less patience with Mets closers, probably with somewhat unfair expectations.

[Guest Edgy DC]

seawolf17 wrote: Part of Benitez' problem was what you saw the other night... he gets over-emotional. Things started to not go his way, and it always seemed like whenever that happened, he got too amped up and tried to throw 120 MPH. Problem is, he starts leaving balls flat out over the plate. Sometimes they get hit 500 feet, like Delgado did; sometimes guys swing through them; and sometimes guys get under them and hit weak fly balls. Those go in the "save" column, and they're largely forgotten. Most of the time, that's how it happens, which is why he saves 40 games a year. The blowups are just magnified.

I just can't see how this distinguishes him from most other closers.

[soupcan]

seawolf17 wrote: Isn't that part of the dilemma of the modern closer, though? You fail four times over the course of a six-month season, and that's all that's remembered.

Yes it happens to all closers but for some reason Benitez is tagged as the biggest choker of them all when its just not true.

Again I think its because he blew up in a few high profile games and just could never shake the tag. He's expected to save games so when he does it's no big deal. When he blows one, its headline time because of past 'big game' failures and the rarity of his blown saves.

Same reason that Jeter is perceived as the clutchiest clutch player that ever swung a bat. He came through a few times in high profile situations and ever since then every time he gets a hit in a 'big' situation (and of course every time there's a RISP that's perceived as 'big') it just adds to the myth. When he doesn't get the 2-out RBI its no big deal because the odds say he won't but when he does - whooo-hooo Cap'n Clutch ccomes through again.

="Gwreck"]I'm convinced that adding to Benitez' problems was that during his heyday, the best closer...EVER was also in his heyday.

Excellent point.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Mets fans would have a much more positive view of Armando if not for these three games.

It started with this one, which was painful enough:
http://leaptoad.com/mets/gamedetail.php?gameno=6248

But then, these two, only six days apart, were the nails in the coffin. There was nothing he could do after that to rehabilitate his reputation:

http://leaptoad.com/mets/gamedetail.php?gameno=6402
http://leaptoad.com/mets/gamedetail.php?gameno=6407

[seawolf17]

I don't know that Armando's the biggest choker ever, nor the worst closer ever. It's just that you seem to remember his games more, for whatever the reason. (Jeffery Maier.)

And my comment about his over-excitability doesn't distinguish him from all other closers, but a lot of them, including guys like Mariano Rivera. Not saying it's fair to compare him to Mariano, but Mo is unflappable, completely emotionless on the mound, whereas Armando is stomping around with what my wife called his "angry bull face" the other night. That's going to make his foibles more prominent.

[Frayed Knot]

Benitez, seemingly more than any other closer, would get the "mental weakness" tag assigned as the reason for any game in which he wasn't virtually perfect.
It was never a bad night with him, it was always that he "melted" or "couldn't handle it".

Paul O'Neill works out a walk after a tough AB and everything else that happened afterward was due to a mentally rattled closer.

But try this on for size - just one World Series later:
- Rivera is handed a one-run lead but gives up a lead-off single
** and it's just so obvious that he lost it at that point **
- because then came the bunt which he threw away
- then, after another bunt, he gives up a ringing double to Tony Freakin' Womack ...
- and then Mr. near-Perfect control hits tiny Craig Counsell before serving up the eventual game-winner to Gonzalez

I mean GEEZ, the guy is perfect all year and then - in Game 7 of the WS and with NYC's post-9/11 pride on the line - he faces 6 batters and gets only one of them out, and that's with two of those batters trying to make an out !!



See how much fun it is when you pre-write the story and then twist the facts to fit the pre-determined conclusion?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Mets fans would have a much more positive view of Armando if not for these three games. It started with this one, which was painful enough: http://leaptoad.com/mets/gamedetail.php?gameno=6248 But then, these two, only six days apart, were the nails in the coffin. There was nothing he could do after that to rehabilitate his reputation: http://leaptoad.com/mets/gamedetail.php?gameno=6402 http://leaptoad.com/mets/gamedetail.php?gameno=6407

Sure, but those two games came at the end of several weeks of other must-haves that he did close successfully. If he blew two of those instead, I think it'd change very little about the way he's perceived.

Don't forget that professional writers have (1) blamed him for homers that John Franco gave up, (2) argued for his replacement by out-of-town closers that have worse track records.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Those last two games came against the Braves in the heat of a feel good (post 9/11) division race.

And the other came in the first ever World Series game between the Mets and the Yankees.

They were, without a doubt, BIG games.

I'm not arguing that he should be demonized, or that he never did any good. But there's no denying that those we three three losses we all pretty darn awful. If he had saved those two games against Atlanta, but had blown games the previous week against Florida or Montreal, I don't think he'd be as reviled as he is.

[Guest Edgy DC]

And I'm saying his performance up to that point made that feel-good division race happen.

He was a monster. A machine. A monstrous machine.

[Gwreck]

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I'm not arguing that he should be demonized, or that he never did any good. But there's no denying that those we three three losses we all pretty darn awful. If he had saved those two games against Atlanta, but had blown games the previous week against Florida or Montreal, I don't think he'd be as reviled as he is.

The 2001 games were tough (especially the first, as the Mets were poised to sweep that first series), but what has always stuck in my craw was:

1999 NLDS Game 4
1999 NLCS Game 6
2000 NLDS Game 2
2000 WS Game 1

I hate to say it, but "when it mattered most," Benitez didn't get it done. He had several other good outings, but he was 3-for-7 in post season saves over a 2 year period.

[Guest Edgy DC]

And I'm saying, for any team in a tight race, year in-year out, like the Mets of that era were, it was always when it mattered most. It's the nature of the job and of the team.

[soupcan]

If I recall correctly CF compared 'Mando's stats in postseason games to to his peers and 'Mando came out right in line with everyone else.

[Benjamin Grimm]

And I just looked at the six consecutive saves he had in September 2001 prior to his 9/23 meltdown against the Braves at Shea. None of them were saves of one-run games. Three or four of them (I had trouble manipulating my fingers and typing at the same time) were actually games where he pitched the 9th inning with a three-run lead.

I guess my problem is that I don't think that the modern 9th-inning closer is that important a role. He's in a no-win situation where when he succeeds it's not a big deal. (He just has to pitch one inning, and often he can even give up a run or two.) But when he fails he's the guy who spoiled everything. He's the guy who turned a win into a loss. Everything was going fine until this schmuck came into the game.

It's not fair, but it's how it is. Years ago, a reliever like Tug McGraw would usually come into a game when there was trouble, when there was a fire to put out. If they didn't succeed, they weren't usually vilified, because it was somebody else who made the mess that they weren't able to clean up.

But closers aren't "firemen" anymore, they're specialists. And once they get into trouble, they have to pitch out of it themselves. With Benitez at least, sometimes Franco, if available, would come in if Armando was in trouble. But in most of Wagner's failures last season, he was left on the mound no matter how poorly he was pitching and wouldn't come out of the game until things were out of hand.

If Joe Smith, for example, lets his first two or three batters get on base, he'll be removed. Billy Wagner doesn't have that luxury.

I'd love to see a manager start using his bullpen the way it was done before Tony LaRussa and Dennis Eckersley changed everything. When Frisella could bail out McGraw, or McGraw could bail out Frisella. Same with McDowell and Orosco.

I thought that Bobby Valentine would do that with Franco and Benitez, but he (usually) went along with the 8th-inning/9th-inning specialist nonsense that's now become the rule.

[Guest Edgy DC]

When Was Benitez ever lifted for Franco with the game still in hand after he became the closer?

And how can we say "It's no fair, but that's the way it is"? This is our own judgment we're talking about.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I don't know. I seem to remember it happening, but I don't know the specific dates, and my memory may be wrong.

My judgment is that it's not fair, but that's the way it is.