2nd base - 2006

[Guest Edgy DC]

The use of "dehumanizing" wasn't meant initialy to describe booing (although it is, I guess, but that wasn't my point) but in response to the use of "product" to describe Matsui. I see this a lot in death penalty arguments. Once you've successfully framed the argument by defining a person with non-person terms, you've won. You can justify doing anything to someone once you've declassified him or her that way.

I wanted to let the poster describing booing Matsui as a means to "demonstrate our dissatisfaction with the product" that I saw what he or she was doing. It didn't work, though. A word so morally loaded just leads people to charge at you. It was meant to be a logical appeal but came out as a moral one. Bullies love that shit. If they could put moral appeals into a spread, they'd slather their sandwiches with it morning, noon, and night.

[Elster88]

The "right to boo" issue is one I try to stay out of, but booing is pure stupidity to me for one reason: It will not make a player better. And he knows he fucked up, so booing does not enlighten him either.
_______________________
This post had the designation 92) Dave Mlicki

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

I'm divided on the booing issue (like most of the others on my list. I can see Kaz's virtues, I can understand what people here like about Edgy's arguing style, and I grant booers an absolute right to boo, although as anyone who's attended a game with me will attest, I don't myself indulge in booing.) It's complicated, but I feel that if you think it's okay to applaud a great play then there's got to be a counterbalance. For me, that counterbalance is normally to stay very quiet after a horrible play, but I understand why people feel entitled to voice their disapproval too.

It's kinda like the whole "fan-unfriendly" issue. People who complain that Kaz makes most of his own problems by refusing to connect with English-speaking fans have something of a case, IMO, but I respect more the argument that fan- and media-friendliness shouldn't matter. I respect it more when it embraces the other extreme as well: that a smiling guy like Cameron and Reyes score no points for their fan-friendliness as well. It's great that some folks cut extra slack for autographing-giving, smiling, talkative ballplayers, but those folks are often the same ones who say "Scowling, nasty behavior shouldn't count," which seems hypocritical to me. If you give positive points for this stuff, seems to me you should also give negative points.




OE: added "will attest"

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

I think most fans feel okay about booing a bad play, or especially a bad effort. I probably boo more than you in that regard.

Where its wrong to me is when fans boo in anticipation of a bad play, or to settle some old score with management, and justify it with a sense of entitlement and this ridiculous idea that ugly and hateful behavior does the rest of us a favor. To them I say boo.

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

="Johnny Dickshot"]I think most fans feel okay about booing a bad play, or especially a bad effort. I probably boo more than you in that regard. Where its wrong to me is when fans boo in anticipation of a bad play, or to settle some old score with management, and justify it with a sense of entitlement and this ridiculous idea that ugly and hateful behavior does the rest of us a favor. To them I say boo.

Let's say the Mets swap out Heilman AND Seo for Baez. Then they decide to add Rocker and Clemens to finish off the staff, and sign up Pete Rose to see if he's the solution to their second-base problems. They decide, further, to give Baez, Rocker and Clemens four- and five-year deals at big money (they give Rose only a two-year deal in consideration of his advanced age, sorta like Julio Franco, you know?), and then these four men (??) proceeed to play very poorly, despite which Willie persists in playing them regularly. The Mets have a 12-63 record in early July.

You're telling me not a single pre-emptory "boo" passes your lips?

I think you'd be angry with the players' previous performance, you'd be pissed as hell at Willie, you'd be furious with management for embarking on such a hopeless path--at least I'd hope you would.

Just because you're not personally that frustrated now doesn't mean that other Mets fans aren't.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Why if you're frustrated would you visit it exclusively on a single player?

[Guest Bret Sabermetric]

Is that what I said?

I might boo Rose exclusively, if I had a long-time hate on him, and if he was tying up resources (i.e., salary) that I regretted wasn't being spent on younger, cheaper, better players, and if I thought he had some kind of unwarranted sweetheart deal that Omar gave him out of the goodness of his heart and not with the team's best interests in mind, and if I thought he was playing at half-effort sometimes, and if he was hitting under .150 and eating up a lot of at-bats, and if no one else seemed like a serious draw on the team's winning percentage.

And so on.

In my scenario, there are several miscreants and I might justify booing any one of them.

Someone around here, you know, likes to maintain that Piazza got singled out for hatin' because he was plainly the BEST player on a losing team, so he drew a disproportionate amount of vocal disapproval, which hardly seems fair (if it were true) yet it's also true that sometimes players whose playing time is minuscule (Rojas, Rodriguez) or less than full-time (Henderson, Zeile, Zambrano) catch more than their share of flak.

To my mind, this is an interesting topic, not to be swept into the dustbin of "Booing Sux so don't do it, ever, kids"--with several sub-topics, like "Is it ever justifiable to boo a player because he's signed to a contract that enriches him more than his play warrants?" Maybe we should open a whole "booing" thread, and leave this one to discuss second-base, as "booing" and "second-base" have nothing in common, other than Matsui.

[nymr83]

]as "booing" and "second-base" have nothing in common, other than Matsui.

that a big thing to have in common.
boooo matsui boooo

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

In general, I don't boo players for poor plays whether in the past or present. I boo for a perceived lack of effort or hustle.

Players will make errors on the field, which I can accept, but there is no excuse for a lack of effort. When I feel a player is "dogging" it, then I certainly will voice my disapproval.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Bret Boone has supposedly joined the mix as an NRI.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Jeepers.

[A Boy Named Seo]

ESPN confirms Boone.

I hope Matsui's around to bury him in spring training.

[metsmarathon]

is bret boone hispanic?

i can't stop myself sometimes. we're going to need a lot of intersquad games in ST to play out all of our 2b options!

matsui still looks to me to be our best option going forward, albeit not the best value.

[Centerfield]

I say we give Boone some steroids and get a few good months out of him until he gets caught.

[seawolf17]

metsmarathon wrote: is bret boone hispanic?

Yep. It's pronounced Bo-OWN-eh.

[Vic Sage]

my 2 concerns are that the sudden availability of Boone's "veteran presence" may

1) delay the progress of Anderson Hernandez and Keppinger; and
2) make it easier for Omar to justify (at least in his own mind) making the stupid Matsui/Seo-Baez trade.

Money aside, Matsui clearly gives the mets the best chance for meaningful production at 2b of all current candidates, for THIS season. So, if we're moving him AND eating the lion's share of his salary, its a pointless move unless we're getting back a better 2bman (like Lugo).

Baez is unexceptional... a glorified Looper. Not that that is a BAD thing, necessarily, but he's just not someone you should overpay for, especially with his expiring deal. I might trade Seo straight up for him, inasmuch as i'm not convinced that Seo is anything more than a #4-#5 starter (not that i think thats a great deal, either), but they apparently want not only Seo and Matsui (+cash!), but a prospect, too! that's NUTS.

I might consider
Baez + Lugo, for
Zambrano or Trax + V.Diaz + Matsui, but no cash and no prospects.

Then, we put Heilman in the rotation, Lugo at 2b, and Baez is the primary set-up guy. Platoon Nady in RF with a LHed bat (hopefully one better than Redman) and we're good to go. I'd still prefer an upgrade at the top of our rotation, but maybe Dickshot's ZITO fantasy comes true. Then we're a pennant winner.

[Guest sharpie]

Now that we've got Duaner we're not going for Joan Baez.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

She blinded me with Baez

[Vic Sage]

after seeing the sanchez-seo deal go down, that Baez deal looks a whole lot less stupid.

[Centerfield]

Yup ©.

[Methead]

Smithers, are they saying "Boo", or "Boone"?

[nymr83]

eeeexcellent

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Did anyone link this? Interesting piece on the dirty slide that took out Keppinger.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/10/sports/baseball/10mets.html

]Injured Prospect Begins Road Back By BEN SHPIGEL Published: January 10, 2006 PORT ST. LUCIE, Fla., Jan. 9 - There was this second baseman shredding International League pitching last spring, but he felt he should be pummeling the Phillies, the Marlins and his hometown Braves. He told himself not to get his hopes up and prayed that people were noticing. The most important person, Omar Minaya, the Mets' general manager, was. He received daily reports from Class AAA Norfolk saying that Jeff Keppinger was hitting well over .300 and playing near-flawless defense. But where to put him? Then Miguel Cairo strained his hamstring and went on the disabled list. Then Kazuo Matsui bruised his knee and went on the disabled list, too. And then. And then nothing. "Keppinger's name came up several times in discussions, and we definitely considered him," Minaya said. "But in truth we never got that far because. ... " Because what? "Well, because he got hurt," Minaya said. On a steamy afternoon in mid-June, with a major league call-up perhaps a day or two away, Keppinger was spiked a few inches below his left knee in a contentious incident that left him with a fractured knee and an uncertain future. Keppinger, who was batting .339, could only watch when Anderson Hernandez, a top second-base prospect, was promoted to Norfolk, flourished and, because of another injury to Matsui, had 18 at-bats for the Mets in September. Keppinger, 25, was still watching when the Mets inquired about Alfonso Soriano, considered Mark Grudzielanek and coveted Julio Lugo. But when he arrived here Sunday night for the Mets' voluntary three-day minicamp, he was very much aware that, for all the tweaking Minaya did with the lineup and bullpen, the one area untouched was his position. "Oh, yeah," Keppinger said in a telephone interview Friday. "I've definitely noticed that." Yet again, he has reason to hope. None of Keppinger's competitors - Matsui, Hernandez, Bret Boone, even Chris Woodward - are here, and his presence reminds the Mets that he is still around and that they should not forget him. "We haven't," said Kevin Morgan, the Mets' director of minor league operations. "We see no reason why Jeff can't be back to his previous stature." He is the same person and player he was before his injury: a solid 6 feet and 180 pounds with gap power and soft hands, and limited range that he says is offset by adroit positioning and footwork. He is hardly the prototype for an everyday major league second baseman, more like a competent utility player. But Keppinger, who was more or less a throw-in by Pittsburgh in the July 2004 trade that brought Kris Benson to the Mets, thrived in Class AA Binghamton and Norfolk. He joined the Mets that August, batting .284 with three homers and nine runs batted in in 116 at-bats and figuring that would be good enough to earn a look in spring training. But the Mets signed Cairo, Woodward and Marlon Anderson, and a disappointed Keppinger returned to Norfolk last April. On June 15, when the Charlotte Knights visited Norfolk for an afternoon game, Keppinger ranked among the Class AAA leaders in hitting. But the only thing hotter than the record temperatures at that time were the players' tempers, the remnant of a simmering feud between the teams. The previous weekend, when Norfolk played at Charlotte, Norfolk's Rodney Nye pushed Felix Martinez in the face as he returned to second base on a pickoff play. Then, on June 14 in Norfolk, pitcher Jae Seo hit Martinez, who jawed at Seo and nearly confronted him before players from both teams interceded. All of this, perhaps, was on Martinez's mind as he stood at first base in the third inning that afternoon. Keppinger said it was not on his when he fielded a high chopper with Martinez barreling toward second. With the shortstop playing deep in the hole, his only option was to get to second himself. Facing third base, Keppinger touched the bag with his right foot. His left leg was planted in the dirt. Keppinger does not know for certain what happened next. He never saw Martinez's spikes enter his left leg. He only felt them. But he said he was sure that Martinez never slid. "How else could his right leg get that high up on me?" Keppinger said. "I'm not sure if it was intentional - I'd like to think not - but it's tough." Then he rolled down his black sock, which was pulled to his knee. "See," Keppinger said. "You can still sort of make out the cleat marks in my leg. There were 12. Thank God he was wearing rubber ones and not metal, or else he could have cut right to the bone." A searing pain coursed through Keppinger's leg. He crumpled to the dirt. Both benches emptied. On his way toward Keppinger, Norfolk Manager Ken Oberkfell had to restrain Nye and Chris Basak from tackling Martinez. Oberkfell maintains that Martinez tried to injure Keppinger. "I really felt, and still do, that the guy went out of his way to hurt Jeff," Oberkfell said Friday in a telephone interview. Repeated efforts to speak with Martinez and Charlotte Manager Nick Leyva were not granted by the Chicago White Sox, Charlotte's major league club. Keppinger was on crutches for six weeks. He could not put weight on the leg. In early August, when he could walk again, he returned here for two weeks of rehabilitation. By the time Keppinger felt well enough to play, it was September. He has stayed in shape by swimming, jump-roping and using an elliptical trainer. Upon returning to Georgia, he will train with the baseball team at his alma mater, the University of Georgia. The leg, Keppinger said, feels fine, and he has no limitations on it. But this is minicamp. There are no runners rushing toward him, spikes up, eager to break up a double play. "That won't be an issue," Keppinger said. "I've never been scared before, and I'm not about to now." Oberkfell said: "If there's one player who wouldn't be intimidated by something like this, it's Jeff Keppinger. He can play on my team any time." Oberkfell intended that last sentence as a compliment. But for Keppinger, it is one of his greatest fears.

[nymr83]

fuckin braves affiliates.

[Frayed Knot]

Charlotte is the Chi Sox top affliliate

[Guest Edgy DC]

Fuckin' Mets who went to school in Brave territory.

[Guest Rotblatt]

Oberkfell had a great, nasty quote after that game.

]Keppinger�s lucky,� Tides manager Ken Oberkfell said. �Martinez literally tried to hurt him. I�m still mad about it and it happened 2� hours ago. He could have possibly ended a guy�s career. He�s gutless and that�s his reputation. Print it and send him a copy. I don�t care. �He�s a hot-dogging bush-leaguer who runs and hides behind his teammates. I�ll say that to his face. Hopefully I�ll get the chance to do just that. What�s the saying? Payback is what? We have more games left with them this season. People in baseball don�t forget. It�s a given.�

I never read about any follow-up retribution, but I'd be surprised if it didn't happen.

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Of course, when you telegraph your planned retribution like that, it gives your superiors a chance to step in and warn you off.

If nothing happened, that's probably the reason.

[Guest Edgy DC]

At the same time, the other report says he stopped Wicked Game and The Organization Guy from going after Martinez at the time.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

It's too bad the Mets don't get another crack at Jason Kendall for who knows how long.

Another unsaid disadvantage of interleague play.