Jump to content
Grand Central Mets
  • Create Account

<t>Vote for up to 8</t>  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. Vote for up to 8

    • Barry Bonds
      4
    • Roger Clemens
      3
    • Carlos Delgado
      5
    • Jeff Kent
      6
    • Don Mattingly
      2
    • Dale Murphy
      7
    • Gary Sheffield
      5
    • Fernando Valenzuela
      3


Recommended Posts

Posted

8 candidates announced for the ballot:

Barry Bonds

Roger Clemens

Carlos Delgado

Jeff Kent

Don Mattingly

Dale Murphy

Gary Sheffield

Fernando Valenzuela


Ballot was selected by 11-member panel of baseball historians.


A 16-member committee (composition not yet announced) will meet in December. 12 votes needed for election.


Fewer than 5 votes means a candidate is ineligible for the next Contemporary Era ballot in 2029.


Garnering fewer than 5 votes on two Contemporary Era Ballots (e.g., if they return in 2032 and again get <5 votes again) they are ineligible for further HOF consideration.

Posted
Most interesting to me would be finding out who is on this committee. Back-door committees should probably be made up entirely of Hall-of-Famers (it's their club, in the end), but they tend to make them hybrids of Hall members, executives, and veteran/retired writers.
Posted
There seems to be a trend toward electing at least one guy per committee lately (last shutout was 2016) and two seems the most common number electees in this most recent run of elections (2017-today) so I expect two will be elected. If more modern guys are on the committee, I could see more lenience toward the steroid guys.
Posted

One more thing to be considered. Diaper Don has said that Clemens belongs in the hall. (They've played golf together). And since some ballplayers (and other possible voters Edgy mentioned) tend to be conservative, that might sway their votes toward the fat coward, bat tosser getting in.


Later

Posted

Why do you think Fernando is a lock?


He has a cultural significance, and that is not nothing, but just sticking to Met-related lefthanders, it is hard to argue that Jerry Koosman, Frank Viola, and Johan Santana didn't all have stronger overall careers.


(OE: Frank Tanana, too, while I am working within that subset.)


He was a better hitter than all of them, and a better fielder than all of them save Santana, but even so.

Posted

Are we voting for who we think might get elected or who we would vote for if we were voting them into the hall? I voted the latter.

Later

Posted
Most interesting to me would be finding out who is on this committee.

 

I believe it’s announced closer to the vote. An additional wrinkle is that each committee member can only vote for 3 players.


By way of reference, the “classic era” committee that elected Allen and Parker was:


Hall of Fame Players (5): Paul Molitor, Eddie Murray, Tony Perez, Lee Smith, Ozzie Smith


Hall of Fame Managers (1): Joe Torre


Executives (5): Sandy Alderson, Terry McGuirk, Dayton Moore, Arte Moreno, Brian Sabean


Media/Historians (5): Bob Elliott, Leslie Heaphy, Steve Hirdt, Dick Kaegel and Larry Lester.

Posted

Why do you think Fernando is a lock?


He has a cultural significance, and that is not nothing, but just sticking to Met-related lefthanders, it is hard to argue that Jerry Koosman, Frank Viola, and Johan Santana didn't all have stronger overall careers.


(OE: Frank Tanana, too, while I am working within that subset.)


He was a better hitter than all of them, and a better fielder than all of them save Santana, but even so.

 

Feels like there has been a groundswell of late, seems like he’s on the Dick Allen track, getting his number retired, and sadly it would be a posthumous induction.

Posted

Dick Allen has a track!


Four other Met-related lefthanders occurred to me last night, each with non-HoF pitching careers that were probably stronger, if less celebrated, than Fernando's:

 

  • John Candeleria,

  • Jon Matlack,

  • Mickey Lolich,

  • Kenny Rogers.

 

Not that I would complain to see him in, but Sandy Koufax he was not.

Posted
I don't see a case for Valenzuela, unless you really emphasize the more intangible and less-stat heavy "fame" and "story" and "legend" angles of the Hall of Fame (a la Catfish Hunter), however I support all the rest and voted for everyone but Valenzuela.
  • 4 weeks later...
Posted

The 16 voters have been announced:


HOF Players

Ferguson Jenkins

Jim Kaat

Juan Marichal

Tony Perez

Ozzie Smith

Alan Trammell

Robin Yount


Owners

Mark Attanasio

Arte Moreno


Executives

Doug Melvin

Kim Ng

Tony Reagans

Terry Ryan


Others

Tyler Kepner

Jayson Stark

Steve Hirdt (former EVP, Elias Sports Bureau)


Of note, Stark is on record having voted for Bonds and Clemens when they were on the writers’ ballot. Kepner has taken the position that the period before PED testing/suspension is different that the 2004 and later process, and thus did not vote for Ramirez or Rodriguez in recent years because of their PED suspensions.

Posted

I don't see a case for Valenzuela, unless you really emphasize the more intangible and less-stat heavy "fame" and "story" and "legend" angles of the Hall of Fame (a la Catfish Hunter), however I support all the rest and voted for everyone but Valenzuela.

 

Catfish had all that, and climbed the magic 200-victory summit.


Pitching wins are certainly a deceptive stat, and plenty of guys with fewer victories probably had stronger careers, but that seems to be a threshold that matters to voters.

Posted

Kent got in with 14 votes

Delgado was next with 9, Mattingly and Murphy tied with 6, and the other four had fewer than 5 votes.

Posted

Dale Murphy & Don Mattingly had HoF first half of their careers but not second halves.

People should stop insisting that half a HoF career is enough to get someone in.

Posted

It appears Fernando Valenzuela wasn't so much a lock as all of that.


The path for Bonds and Clemens is still open as Manny Ramirez (for one last year, anyhow) and Alex Rodriguez remain on the BBWAA ballot, and in an otherwise weak year, they could certainly break through.


If and when one such character breaks through, it likely becomes a breach in the seawall keeping all PED violators out.

Posted
If and when one such character breaks through, it likely becomes a breach in the seawall keeping all PED violators out.

 

And yet the stunning hypocrisy of electing Bud Selig doesn’t seem to have caused such breach.

Posted

It appears Fernando Valenzuela wasn't so much a lock as all of that.

 

Yeah, I guess after reading, or listening to the audiobook, of Daybreak At Chavez Ravine, a bio on Fernando that really put forward a case of him being a “Johnny Appleseed” like figure for Latin America, and specifically the Mexican market as being enough to put him in, I thought there must be some groundswell of support from the “its the hall of FAME (ie notoriety should be as equal of a reason for induction as overall counting statistics)” and intangibles crowd.


Then you had the Dodgers officially putting #34 in mothballs, which I took as a similar “GET WITH THE PROGRAM COOPERSTOWN” as with the number retirement ceremonies for Phil Rizzuto, Ron Santo and Dick Allen.  Though obviously, sadly now it was pretty much “give him the Jim Gilliam treatment while he is completely able to fully take part in, and appreciate the honor, instead of AFTER his passing.”

Posted
If and when one such character breaks through, it likely becomes a breach in the seawall keeping all PED violators out.

 

And yet the stunning hypocrisy of electing Bud Selig doesn’t seem to have caused such breach.

 

Who is supposed to get through the Bud Selig breach? George Steinbrenner and George W. Bush? Or maybe Marvin Miller?


I figure that the standard is already established with commissioners. If you last for twenty years or more, by hook or by crook, you are likely to get in. It's too embarrassing for baseball, keeping around somebody for that long while acknowledging that he wasn't such a special figure after all, so they pretend he is.

Posted

Holy ****! The Mets traded a Hall-of-Famer for Carlos Baerga!

 

It's funny to me that this trade isn't cited in any list of worst Mets trades of all time. Trading a future Hall of Famer for a washed up Carlos Baerga has to be up there. I think part of it is because it was so well received at the time, and it took us a while for us to realize how bad the trade was. Though in fairness, we should have known right away. Kent hit 29 HRS the year after the trade and never looked back. Stayed productive until almost 40 Baerga was washed up at 27.


Craziness.

Posted

Holy ****! The Mets traded a Hall-of-Famer for Carlos Baerga!

 

It's funny to me that this trade isn't cited in any list of worst Mets trades of all time. Trading a future Hall of Famer for a washed up Carlos Baerga has to be up there. I think part of it is because it was so well received at the time, and it took us a while for us to realize how bad the trade was. Though in fairness, we should have known right away. Kent hit 29 HRS the year after the trade and never looked back. Stayed productive until almost 40 Baerga was washed up at 27.


Craziness.

 

True, but Alfonzo’s emergence, though at third not his usual second, did take the sting out of it.


FWIW, I saw a journalist on BlueSky/Facebook remind followers of the domestic abuse injury that the “truck washing incident” was a cover story for. While I think that was as a Giant, not a Met, there is for sure more of a “bullet dodged” feeling with him that also overrides a ****** ass return for trading him.

Posted

The Mets got Baerga for Kent, after they had acquired Kent for David Cone.


Later

Posted
It's funny to me that this trade isn't cited in any list of worst Mets trades of all time. Trading a future Hall of Famer for a washed up Carlos Baerga has to be up there. I think part of it is because it was so well received at the time, and it took us a while for us to realize how bad the trade was. Though in fairness, we should have known right away. Kent hit 29 HRS the year after the trade and never looked back. Stayed productive until almost 40 Baerga was washed up at 27.


Craziness.

 

You sort of answer your own question here. Kent’s WAR and OPS+ in New York:

1992: 0.4, 91 (37 games after being traded from Toronto)

1993: 0.3, 106 (140 games)

1994: 2.7, 111 (107 games, strike year)

1995: 3.2, 110 (125 games)

1996: 1.7, 105 (89 games before being traded)


Those are…not Hall of Fame numbers.


And as you note, Baerga dropping off a cliff at 27 is not exactly the standard age curve for previously productive major leaguers.


This is much more of a bad luck trade than, say, acquiring a guy with a massive contract who was recently suspended for PEDs and is on the wrong side of 35.

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...