Maybe This Time: Gil Hodges on Another HOF Ballot

[G-Fafif]

Nine former big league players and one manager comprise the 10-name Golden Days Era ballot to be reviewed and voted upon Dec. 5 at the Baseball Winter Meetings. Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Roger Maris, Minnie Miñoso, Danny Murtaugh, Tony Oliva, Billy Pierce and Maury Wills are the candidates the Golden Days Era Committee will consider for Hall of Fame election for the Class of 2022. All candidates are former players except for Murtaugh, who was a manager with the Pittsburgh Pirates. Kaat, Oliva and Wills are living, while all other candidates are deceased.

https://baseballhall.org/discover/golden-days-era-ballot-2022https://baseballhall.org/discover/golden-days-era-ballot-2022

[kcmets]

Poor Gil, the Jethro Tull of Halls of Fames...

[Edgy MD]

Being the only post-war player in Field of Dreams has to count for something.



Amazingly, his legacy was so transcendent that he managed to get recognized by a pre-war teenager.

[Willets Point]

I feel like all of those players should be inducted. And before anyone complains about "watering down the Hall of Fame," only 1.1% of all major league players have been inducted. Adding 9 players would bring it 1.2%. I think the Hall can handle that.

[kcmets]

Facebook

WWW.FACEBOOK.COM

Gil Hodges Belongs in the HOF fb page

[Edgy MD]

I've never heard anybody make a case for Billy Pierce before. I'm not knocking him or anything. I'm just saying I've heard mostly strong cases for all the other eight players.



I'd likely put him behind Koosman, but the two are probably very comparable.

[seawolf17]

Pierce and Maris are the only ones I really quibble with, and maybe Murtaugh because I never quite know how to evaluate managers. But the other seven all make logical sense. But I'm definitely a Big Hall proponent.

[Marshmallowmilkshake]

=seawolf17 post_id=80740 time=1636284829 user_id=91]
Pierce and Maris are the only ones I really quibble with, and maybe Murtaugh because I never quite know how to evaluate managers. But the other seven all make logical sense. But I'm definitely a Big Hall proponent.

[G-Fafif]

Hodges has earned more Hall of Fame votes than anyone else in history not to eventually be admitted. Soon, he'll have another chance. On Sunday, the Golden Days Era Committee will consider Hodges along with nine other candidates. By one count, it will be the 35th time Hodges is considered for induction. This time, the Hall must set things right. The Hall must end its long miscarriage of justice, and finally enjoy the privilege of having Gil Hodges among its ranks.

James Schapiro, born 40 years after the Dodgers left Brooklyn, does a dazzling job laying out the case for Gil, featuring a spate of fresh testimonials from those who knew the man and revere him still.



https://sheabridge.substack.com/p/gil-hodges-has-always-belonged-inhttps://sheabridge.substack.com/p/gil-hodges-has-always-belonged-in

[Edgy MD]

Worth noting that Wills would be the only one alive to enjoy enshrinement.



Probably shouldn't be a factor, but it's probably likely to be a factor.

[nymr83]

Maris you can at least say has the FAME piece down. He is more famous than the test by a mile.



I had never heard of Billy Pierce until seeing his name here.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Edgy MD wrote: Worth noting that Wills would be the only one alive to enjoy enshrinement. Probably shouldn't be a factor, but it's probably likely to be a factor.

"Dick Allen, Ken Boyer, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Roger Maris, Minnie Miñoso, Danny Murtaugh, Tony Oliva, Billy Pierce and Maury Wills are the candidates the Golden Days Era Committee will consider for Hall of Fame election for the Class of 2022.



All candidates are former players except for Murtaugh, who was a manager with the Pittsburgh Pirates. Kaat, Oliva and Wills are living, while all other candidates are deceased."



https://baseballhall.org/discover/golden-days-era-ballot-2022https://baseballhall.org/discover/golden-days-era-ballot-2022

[Edgy MD]

Good point.

[dinosaur jesus]

No way on Maris. Outside of his two MVP seasons, he was a good player, but never one of the best in the league. He wasn't even close to a Hall of Fame career.



Billy Pierce is interesting. He was a great pitcher for about eight years, a pretty good one into his late thirties, and if he'd played for better teams he probably would have been in a long time ago. And I'd be fine with him making it. But he's kind of the definition of marginal Hall of Famer. He's more deserving than a lot of pitchers in there. And less deserving than a lot who aren't. David Cone was a better pitcher.

[Marshmallowmilkshake]

Minnie Minoso is an interesting case as well. A trailblazer in some respects and a hero in Chicago. I was able to meet him a number of times, and he certainly embraced his ambassador role.

[G-Fafif]

Gil's return to New York.



[media=youtube]mwplwP2Ad5c[/media]



Gil for all time.



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[Frayed Knot]

I'm agnostic on the whole Gil-in-HoF question.

It's become a rerun of the Rizzuto saga where each year the NY media and NY fans wonder if THIS is going to be the year he gets in. No questioning as to whether or not he deserves to is entertained

because we act as if that debate was settled long ago but he is, for some unstated reason, being screwed each time and it's time to right the wrong.

But while those inside the NYC area see it as settled, I doubt there's the same consensus outside and maybe the majority opinion just thinks he falls a bit short.

[Edgy MD]

I certainly think there has been a lot of questioning about it. As noted, he's been on 35 ballots.



And he's certainly received majority support on multiple occasions.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Well, the Hall would be tremendously bigger if all a candidate needed to get in was a majority of the vote.



I'm with FK on this one.



Which doesn't mean that I'm against Gil's enshrinement.

[Frayed Knot]

Edgy MD wrote: I certainly think there has been a lot of questioning about it. As noted, he's been on 35 ballots.

Sure, the voters have questioned his merits, on multiple occasions and via multiple formats. They've also rejected him each time, maybe rightly or maybe wrongly but it's at least a question so it

would be nice if it were treated as such.

What I'm talking about is the fan/media debate where, as it was for Rizzuto, the discussion proceeds directly to if this is the year the obvious wrong will be righted as [if] that's an already agreed upon

fact allowing us to skip over the part about whether or not he actually should be inducted. I understand the fan perspective on this, at least to a degree; Phil lived a long time and spent generations

as a lovable broadcaster; Gil tragically lived a short time and managed a lovable story (though he's not up for managing and probably 90% of fans alive today never saw him play a single game) so

both are beneficiaries of the warm fuzzies. It's more disturbing to see the supposed tough NY media take a pass on the whole thing and instead act as cheerleaders.



At least this has yet to reach the Rizzuto situation where the committee was nakedly and purposely stacked for the sole purpose of getting him elected and then pretending that the whole process

wasn't tainted. Bill White (his active broadcast partner), Yogi Berra, and Pee Wee Reese (longtime friends) were off that vets committee as quickly as they appeared on it once the deed was

complete. Yogi's congratulatory phone call was, "We got you in!"





I didn't like the lack of public debate then and I don't like it any better now simply because it's one of "my" guys up for inclusion.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Guest

[MFS62]

Frayed Knot wrote: What I'm talking about is the fan/media debate where, as it was for Rizzuto, the discussion proceeds directly to if this is the year the obvious wrong will be righted as that's an already agreed upon fact allowing us to skip over the part about whether or not he actually should be inducted.

Similarly, MFY fans have been equally vocal (maybe even more so) in their support for Munson's election to the hall. Ron Bloomberg has been one of the leaders of the charge on his Facebook page, has written (he says) a book "Thurman and Me", and hawks "Thurman for the Hall" t-shirts.

Yech.



Later

[Edgy MD]

I'm certainly happy to debate the matter in depth. I'll take either side.

[G-Fafif]

Kitty Carlisle may not know the guest's line, but recognizes an alluring voice when she hears it.

[Edgy MD]

The winner in a long series between the Senators and the Mets would be America.

[Frayed Knot]

Frayed Knot wrote: What I'm talking about is the fan/media debate where, as it was for Rizzuto, the discussion proceeds directly to if this is the year the obvious wrong will be righted as that's an already agreed upon fact allowing us to skip over the part about whether or not he actually should be inducted. Similarly, MFY fans have been equally vocal (maybe even more so) in their support for Munson's election to the hall. Ron Bloomberg has been one of the leaders of the charge on his Facebook page, has written (he says) a book "Thurman and Me", and hawks "Thurman for the Hall" t-shirts. Yech.

If someone wants to make a case for Munson then go ahead. I might disagree with them but they can talk him up all they want. A debate is what SHOULD be happening on this topic.

My problem with the Rizzuto and now Hodges cases is with those acting as if there is no debate to be made because it's already a universally recognized fact.

And those folks who relieve themselves of the burden of proof also get to sidestep the inconvenient question of how such an obviously deserving member was voted down so consistently

by contemporaries who actually saw your guy play. Rizzuto not only never got 75% during his decade and a half on the ballot, in his best year he never got halfway to 75%.

So while maybe all those voters for all those years were wrong, but you should at least need argue your point rather than act as if his career alone is prima facie evidence that requires

no further discussion.







All of this reminds me of the logic of (former?) newswoman Linda Ellerbee.

In making a case (years ago) for passage of the (by then expired) Equal Rights Amendment. Her argument was; 'the fact that we don't have it is proof that we need it'.

Oh, OK.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Guest

[batmagadanleadoff]

Frayed Knot wrote: And those folks who relieve themselves of the burden of proof also get to sidestep the inconvenient question of how such an obviously deserving member was voted down so consistently by contemporaries who actually saw your guy play.

This.



The only thing I'm pretty confident in saying is that Gil Hodges's playing career, alone, doesn't merit enshrinement in Cooperstown. And his managerial record, alone, doesn't merit inclusion either.



So is Gil's managerial record enough, when combined with his playing record, enough to get him in? I dunno. The 1969 Mets were spectacular, one of the greatest stories in baseball history, and still, one of baseball's most beloved teams ever, even though its fans are dying off. Everybody rooted for the '69 Mets. But still, Gil's managerial record is brief. HOFer's that needed their managerial record to bolster their playing stats to get in, tended to have a larger managerial record than what Hodges accomplished as a manager. It was simply too brief. Gil himself was as beloved as those '69 Mets and his case will no doubt rely on the almost universal respect he received to get in.



Gil has a unique resume, for which there is virtually no comp.

[Edgy MD]

But we're only just getting a sense of how to judge a managerial career.



Historically, the measure of a manager is two championships. If your team wins two championships, you get in eventually, but that's just too crude for me. We're perfectly capable of looking at two shortstops, one of whom has been on three championship teams and the other who has been on one, comparing them with all the other information from their careers, and coming to the conclusion that the one with one championship grossly outperfomed the one with three. We need to do the same with managers.

[G-Fafif]

Tears of joy.

[Marshmallowmilkshake]

=G-Fafif post_id=82572 time=1638747366 user_id=55]Tears of joy.

[stevejrogers]

Buck O'Neil becomes the first Hall Award Winner, the one that bears his name, to gain induction.



Miñoso, Kaat and Oliva join Hodges to end a bit of a logjam in their era's ballot.