Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

[Centerfield]

Zvon wrote: Nymr83 wrote: Even in a tight pennant race there will be a blowout game one way or the other he can come into! That's true. I'll root for whatever he wants to do with the rest of his life, until the end of time itself.

Sign me up for this too. Imagine the reception he'd get from the fans the minute he comes into the game.

I've always thought it was interesting how different Santana and Beltran are perceived by Mets fans. Both were superstars hampered by injury. Both gave us some of the best performances we have seen. But Santana is royalty, largely because of one game. Beltran draws mixed reactions, with many viewing him in a negative light, because of one at bat.

[Frayed Knot]

I have better memories of Beltran than of Santana

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

I am thankful for what both Santana and Beltran did for the Mets during their respective tenures. I was big fan of Beltran, in particular..

[Zvon]

Centerfield wrote: Zvon wrote: Nymr83 wrote: Even in a tight pennant race there will be a blowout game one way or the other he can come into! That's true. I'll root for whatever he wants to do with the rest of his life, until the end of time itself. Sign me up for this too. Imagine the reception he'd get from the fans the minute he comes into the game. I've always thought it was interesting how different Santana and Beltran are perceived by Mets fans. Both were superstars hampered by injury. Both gave us some of the best performances we have seen. But Santana is royalty, largely because of one game. Beltran draws mixed reactions, with many viewing him in a negative light, because of one at bat.

Man, that one at bat was a powerfully traumatic moment, though. Like when Rogers walked right off the mound after that walk (99?). That's all I'll remember about him. I do recall Beltran's goodness tho. I really wanted the Mets to go get him and they did. He did not disappoint me at all in the long run. But then there's that one at bat....

Craw/< *cough!

[smg58]

It's human nature. Some games are more important than others, some plays are more important than others. Bill Buckner had an extremely enviable career. Ron Swoboda was considered a defensive liability. Al Weis didn't hit home runs. Every time I hear somebody mention how great Beltran was in the postseason -- and to be fair, he WAS -- it's like a knife twisting in my heart. You know what pitch is coming, get ready to swing at it!

[Centerfield]

smg58 wrote: It's human nature. Some games are more important than others, some plays are more important than others. Bill Buckner had an extremely enviable career. Ron Swoboda was considered a defensive liability. Al Weis didn't hit home runs. Every time I hear somebody mention how great Beltran was in the postseason -- and to be fair, he WAS -- it's like a knife twisting in my heart. You know what pitch is coming, get ready to swing at it!

Fully understand that there are big moments etc. But I have never seen a batter receive so much blame for one at-bat. Buckner made an error. Closers give up game-winning HR's. Batters who make outs, just make outs. Hitting is hard. Especially against closers. Mike Piazza made the last out of the 2000 World Series. People hardly remember that. When he was inducted into the Hall of Fame, no Met fan said, "Yeah, but that last out against Mariano..."

So much is made of the manner of out. A called strike three. Like this is indicative of a character flaw or that it demonstrates a lack of desire. I will never understand this. Being selective is a huge part of what made him great. That year he had a .388 OBP against a .275 BA. He didn't chase bad pitches. Over the long run I'd much rather a selective hitter than someone who chases.

What's the downside to that? If someone drops a filthy buckle the knees curveball, Beltran was vulnerable to that. He was beat. It happens. I don't believe for a second that his take is indicative of a lack of effort.

"At least swing." I hear that all the time. Anyone going up against Wainright with the philosophy that he has to swing is toast. He'd take advantage of that. And for Beltran, who had put together a legendary year and was crushing it in October, why would you change anything with the season on the line. His line in that series? 1.054 OPS, with 3 HR's. Anytime anyone mentions Carlos Beltran in 2006, this is what I think of.

And by the way, if everyone knew what Wainright was bringing, it didn't help them much. That October Wainright was 1-0, with a 0.00 ERA in 9.2 innings pitched. 15 strikeouts in those outings. So I'm guessing that the "They should have put me in, I'd at least swing" critics wouldn't have fared much better.

[metsmarathon]

also worth considering.... i've heard cliff floyd talk about that at bat a few times on the sirius mlb channel. he tells that the mets batters had NO IDEA wainwright had that nasty curve. which seems somewhat inconceivable... but to listen to him tell it, it sounds credible.

[Ceetar]

he was a rookie reliever. he'd thrown ~300 curveballs on the season/career. I"m sure they scouted him some but to that extent? who knows..

[Centerfield]

Also important to note, a Carlos Beltran double, followed by a Wright RBI single had accounted for the only Mets run of the game.

Adding on, the Mets had only 4 hits that game. Beltran's was the only extra-base hit. He also walked, making him and Delgado the only Mets to reach twice. Even in that game, you can hardly call him a goat.

For the series only Delgado was more productive. LoDuca was terrible. Wright had an OPS of .596. Endy, great catch aside, was stupid bad. (.444 OPS). If anyone should have been a goat, it would be Valentin. .667 OPS including whiffing during our best scoring opportunity.

[Frayed Knot]

Centerfield wrote: ... I have never seen a batter receive so much blame for one at-bat.

A lot of that has to do with Beltran not being all that popular with a certain segment of NYM fans prior to that.
iow, those blaming Beltran for that AB probably weren't pre-disposed to give him a break anyway.

[Centerfield]

That's probably true.

I don't understand that segment of fans. We finally got a star player to sign with us and for some reason some fans didn't take to him. Seriously. Sometimes I wonder if some Met fans just like being miserable.

Understood that he got off to a slow start, but the minute he breaks his face and comes back to the lineup, I think you have to throw any disappointment out the window. I imagine anyone's numbers would dip if he suffers a broken face and a concussion. You'd think, by the treatment he got, that he was the one that never made it back that season.

And once he lit the world on fire in 2006, all sins, real or perceived, should have been forgiven. Makes me so mad. The treatment of Beltran is an embarrassment for Mets fans.

[Edgy MD]

A whole lot of racism was tied up in that. Zero percent will admit it, but hiring an Afro-Dominican-ish GM who made his first big splash by going out and signing an Afro-Rican-ish star, who then himself had the audacity to take the first question at his introductory press conference in Spanish brought to the surface a whole lot of Trumptastic Los Mets bullshit in the fanbase. Self-styled forgotten white men were acting all durr .... my team is being taken from me! Blacks and Latinos have always been welcome in Metland, but suddenly it was becoming apparent in an ugly way that their cultural ascendency was not particularly welcome at all. Nor was them merely expressing themselves as the people they were.

The stupid stupidness of the Walter Reed debacle only confirmed the distrust such fans had held him in since day one.

At another site, I was told that he "never went full extension" in pursuit of a ball (unlike true Americans like Lenny Dykstra, apparently, was the undercurrent). I posted 10 shots of him going full extension, including full extension into Mike Cameron's face, as well as glorious catches going over the wall and climbing Tal's hill, and the guy turned around and attacked my fucking patriotism.

[Guest 41Forever]

I don't know if I agree with that, Edgy. I just think people had unrealistic expectations. They probably thought they were getting the otherworldly guy they saw in the playoffs and were let down that they got a guy who was merely excellent. Met fans embraced Gooden and Strawberry and other African American players.

[Ceetar]

I wouldn't say zero percent will admit it. It was a meme for a while. Wagner made an offhand comment and it caught fire after that.

[Centerfield]

I don't know if I agree with that, Edgy. I just think people had unrealistic expectations. They probably thought they were getting the otherworldly guy they saw in the playoffs and were let down that they got a guy who was merely excellent. Met fans embraced Gooden and Strawberry and other African American players.

BREAKING NEWS: WHITE MALE REPUBLICAN SKEPTICAL OF RACISM
Details at 11

[Frayed Knot]

- Beltran was imported, rather than home-grown like Goodenberry
- The hiring of Omar combined with his early acquisitions of Beltran, Delgado, et al was seen by some as a 'No Gringos Need Apply' move ... They're taking our jobs!!!!!
- There was a sense that he was too cool for school, aka: not fiery enough [see Edgy's post]
- he got off to a bad start (1st season was some 150 points of OPS under his previous seasons)
- he got injured a lot ... don't dismiss how much fans hold it against injured players
- Mets didn't win it all with him
- the strikeout

[Centerfield]

Frayed Knot wrote: - - There was a sense that he was too cool for school, aka: not fiery enough [see Edgy's post]

I do believe there is some truth to this. Basically he made everything look so easy some didn't really appreciate how tough these plays were. I've said it before, Torii Hunter got more credit for missing the ball and falling into the Boston bullpen than Beltran did for catching it, bouncing off, and then throwing it back in. He did it with such grace it was impossible to know that he hurt his ribs on that play.

[Edgy MD]

41Forever wrote: I don't know if I agree with that, Edgy. I just think people had unrealistic expectations. They probably thought they were getting the otherworldly guy they saw in the playoffs and were let down that they got a guy who was merely excellent. Met fans embraced Gooden and Strawberry and other African American players.

Well, as I wrote, "Blacks and Latinos have always been welcome in Metland, but ... ."

Big but, but if you haven't heard thinly veiled racist attacks on Strawberry and Gooden, you've led a happier life than I have. (First guy I met when I got to college called Mookie Wilson "Spooky.")

But don't ask 2017 me what went down in 2005, ask 2005 Omar Minaya.

Or ask T.C.!

[smg58]

I think the reaction to the strikeout is more of a gut emotional reaction than anything else; it was a heartbreaking moment that I still cringe to think about. Is it fair? Fuck no. Carlos Beltran is human, and so am I.

That being said, Beltran was a superb player before, during, and after his tenure with the Mets. I was happy to get him, I'm still happy we got him, and I wished him well when he left.

[Zvon]

This is boo-koo kaboomin'!





^Caption for that one was unnecessarily cruel. It was an awesome effort.









^It's a fact. A matter of record. He was sitting on one pitch.
He didn't have the gumption to just get a piece of it and foul it off, like Mex would have.
But I have come to the conclusion that I personally will no longer focus on that moment.
No longer dwell on that very traumatic ending. I do this in appreciation of the therapy I have received in this thread.

The turning point in that series should rightfully trump Beltran's frozen moment every time:



OR: lol @previous post^. Yea, back to Santana

[Benjamin Grimm]

He didn't have the gumption to just get a piece of it and foul it off, like Mex would have.

You're saying that Carlos Beltran was afraid to hit a foul ball?

[Zvon]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: He didn't have the gumption to just get a piece of it and foul it off, like Mex would have. You're saying that Carlos Beltran was afraid to hit a foul ball?

It's very possible that I am. What # definition of gumption are you looking at?

[Zvon]

[dgwphotography]

Centerfield wrote: - - There was a sense that he was too cool for school, aka: not fiery enough [see Edgy's post] I do believe there is some truth to this. Basically he made everything look so easy some didn't really appreciate how tough these plays were. I've said it before, Torii Hunter got more credit for missing the ball and falling into the Boston bullpen than Beltran did for catching it, bouncing off, and then throwing it back in. He did it with such grace it was impossible to know that he hurt his ribs on that play.

This. He made everything look so effortless. He easily is the best CF the Mets have had.

[Centerfield]

I just want to point out that even McReynolds got his own thread and I'm still buried in Johan's.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

I'd just like to point out that for all this Beltranning in Johan' s thread... there hasn't been one mention that his was

in Johan's no-hitter.

[Benjamin Grimm]

And that disproves Zvon's claim that Beltran is afraid to hit a foul ball.

[stevejrogers]

Just hitting me how anti-the trade Val was back in the day. At least in thinking that the haul of Carlos Gomez, Philip Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra was too rich to give up.

And now he’s the Santana Appreciation thread starter

[Benjamin Grimm]

I remember that too. He hated the deal because it included Kevin Mulvey.

[seawolf17]

In Val's defense, he had a *GREAT* nickname ready for Mulvey when he got promoted.