Free Agent Season

[Centerfield]

Frayed Knot wrote: The Mets currently have three OFs under multi-year deals plus Conforto, which means that if they go out to sign a premier FA OF it's not going to be in addition to what they already have but instead of one or more of them. If you want to argue for that strategy then fine, but a top FA isn't coming here to platoon and the team isn't moving Granderson (their best offensive player this past year) nor LAGARES (a 26 y/o GG CF) to a backup/PH role. If you want to keep those guys and merely reduce their roles then it's going to be for a lesser, more platoon-type of import, not the likes of Heyward or Upton or Adam Jones.

If you look at the splits of Granderson and Lagares, a platoon between the two is exactly what the team should do. Granderson has a .300 point differential in OPS. Lagares, about .180. If you platoon those two, that is one terrific centerfielder. This also opens up an OF spot for either Upton or Heyward. If you sign Heyward, you can move Granderson back to RF and not have to worry about the dropoff in defense from this alignment.

And sure, I realize Granderson is a gamble in CF. But over 162, I'd much rather have a Granderson/Lagares platoon at CF and Upton in RF, than take my chances with some combination of Lagares/Granderson/Cuddyer to provide enough offense.

Now, if you meant that the team won't do this because of the money already committed, then that is a different story. You may be, and probably are, exactly right about this. But this is exactly the type of budget-related constraints I have been complaining about this past week. A big market team does not have to do this. A big market team platoons their investments, relegates Cuddyer to the bench, and brings in guys who can get the job done. Especially if that big market team just lost a World Series and is undoubtedly a player or two away.

It's just mind-boggling. We're losing Cespedes and Murphy, and the plan is to give those at-bats to Herrera, Lagares and Cuddyer? All three had an OPS in the .600's.

They've made us wait 6 years for this pitching staff to arrive. Who knows how many years they will be together. You can't waste one of those years because you want to get at-bats for Lagares and Cuddyer.

[Mex17]

Frayed Knot wrote: OK, I'll try once more. The Mets currently have three OFs under multi-year deals plus Conforto, which means that if they go out to sign a premier FA OF it's not going to be in addition to what they already have but instead of one or more of them. If you want to argue for that strategy then fine, but a top FA isn't coming here to platoon and the team isn't moving Granderson (their best offensive player this past year) nor LAGARES (a 26 y/o GG CF) to a backup/PH role. If you want to keep those guys and merely reduce their roles then it's going to be for a lesser, more platoon-type of import, not the likes of Heyward or Upton or Adam Jones.

Juan Lagares is a nice asset and a good guy to have on the team but his BA dropped 22 points in one year and we still do not know if he can throw. The Mets are the defending National League Champions and need to replace the primary guy who got them to the postseason who, incidentally, put Lagares's ass on the bench in the first place. I am also not even talking about Upton or Heyward in this particular discussion (although I would like to be) but instead Denard Span specifically (because that is one of the three names that Carig has specifically mentioned several times over). If Rubin is right and they do not even go out and get one of the "Carig Three" if an affordable financial deal is in their laps for one of them because they want to gift wrap centerfield for Juan Lagares, then they are morons who are not serious about winning.

Lagares will still play a lot if Span or Parra are on the team anyway. Lagares/Parra would be a straight platoon. With Span not quite as much but my guess is that Span will still need time off since he is coming off an injury season and they can use Lagares to hedge against Span breaking down. You can still keep Lagares in the mix as a strong bench player (good teams have Juan Lagares type players on the bench. . .bad ones have Kirk Nieuwenhuis or Darrell Cecilliani) and start prepping him for a few years when his money really starts to kick in. For 2016 though, he is a $2.5 million player.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Guest

[Mex17]

Look at the team that just beat us. Didn't it look like Yost was finding ways to get Jarrod Dyson and Paulo Orlando in there? You are basically arguing against having team depth (or, if not you, then Rubin or the front office is).

[Mex17]

Even if they do end up with Heyward, Upton, or Cespedes, I think that you still hold on to Lagares, find ways to get him in there (even though that would admittedly be quite a bit harder) and you still have him when Granderson is gone in two years,

[Ceetar]

Can we remember that Lagares hit better than Cespedes and Conforto in the postseason too maybe?

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: Can we remember that Lagares hit better than Cespedes and Conforto in the postseason too maybe?

Everyone remembers what Lagares did in the post-season. Everyone else, besides you, understands how much weight to give that small sample size. It is foolish to think Lagares is a better hitter than Conforto or Cespedes.

And just so we are clear, Michael Cuddyer's full year is not a significant sample size to draw conclusions, but Lagares' work in October is? Gotcha.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: Ceetar wrote: Can we remember that Lagares hit better than Cespedes and Conforto in the postseason too maybe? Everyone remembers what Lagares did in the post-season. Everyone else, besides you, understands how much weight to give that small sample size. It is foolish to think Lagares is a better hitter than Conforto or Cespedes. And just so we are clear, Michael Cuddyer's full year is not a significant sample size to draw conclusions, but Lagares' work in October is? Gotcha.

it wasn't a full year, it was full of injury, and he has literally thousands more at-bats suggesting he's better than he was in 2015 with a core and knee injury. The Mets can get offensive value from Cuddyer next year.

No, but Lagares hit pretty well down the stretch in and October. His 2014 was pretty good. Going into his age 27 season, it seems like there's value to be had from playing Lagares.

Michael Conforto is a talented player who probably got called up too soon, and still managed to have a month in there that was very good. He's not a lock or anything, but there's almost definitely value to be had there.

Granderson is a very excellent player. There's literally no way to argue against that.

That's 4 useful-very useful outfielders. It's entirely possible, I'd even say likely, that the Mets can get the offense they need out of those three positions with what they have. I'd look for a talented part-time player that can hit lefties as the 5th OF, because I'd be more concerned with the ability of Conforto, and to a lesser extend Granderson, to hit lefties than Cuddyer and Lagares to hit righties. I think the upgrade to a guy like Heyward over the various playing time situations you could build around the guys the Mets have now isn't super significant.

I'm more concerned with the step down for the infield backups, and the higher value infield defense means.

[Frayed Knot]

Centerfield wrote: It's just mind-boggling. We're losing Cespedes and Murphy, and the plan is to give those at-bats to Herrera, Lagares and Cuddyer? All three had an OPS in the .600's.

Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort.
Can we please not fall into the trap, just one week into the off-season, of making up the outcome for the sole purpose of criticizing the both the process and the result?

Mex17 wrote: I am also not even talking about Upton or Heyward in this particular discussion

But it was Rubin's comment about not pursuing a FA who would toss Lagares to the bench that got you started on this 'WAH we're killing the team' jag in the first place.
Somehow in all this you missed the line -- the one that started it off -- about how "The New York Mets are shopping for a center fielder". Not wanting to "displace" Juan is not the same as saying you're handing him 600 ABs

You are basically arguing against having team depth (or, if not you, then Rubin or the front office is).

Please stop.

Middle infield is just fine with what we have.

Wow, I'm a lot more concerned with the middle infield than I am with the OF.

[Centerfield]

It's just mind-boggling. We're losing Cespedes and Murphy, and the plan is to give those at-bats to Herrera, Lagares and Cuddyer? All three had an OPS in the .600's. Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort. Can we please not fall into the trap, just one week into the off-season, of making up the outcome for the sole purpose of criticizing the both the process and the result?

I'm not making up the outcome. I thought that's what you were suggesting.

Your words: The Mets currently have three OFs under multi-year deals plus Conforto, which means that if they go out to sign a premier FA OF it's not going to be in addition to what they already have but instead of one or more of them.

My interpretation: Don't forget about Cuddyer. He will get some of those at-bats.

Your words: the team isn't moving Granderson (their best offensive player this past year) nor LAGARES (a 26 y/o GG CF) to a backup/PH role.

My interpretation: Lagares will get those at-bats.

My takeaway: FK thinks the Cespedes at-bats are going to Lagares, and to a lesser extent, Cuddyer.

[Ceetar]

Centerfield wrote: My takeaway: FK thinks the Cespedes at-bats are going to Lagares, and to a lesser extent, Cuddyer.

The Mayberry and Nieuwenhuis ABs too. And the Ceciliani.

[Centerfield]

Ceetar,

A clarification. I get that if the Mets do absolutely nothing, the offense should be better than the first-half offense. That last place offense took a perfect storm of bad preparation, and bad luck. They had a bad winter. The offense was limited before a pitch was thrown. Then they lost Wright, lost d'Arnaud. Mayberry sucked. Cuddyer sucked. Murphy got hurt again. I don't expect the offense to be that bad again.

But I don't want to go into this season simply "better than the worse offense in MLB". I want to go in similar to the second half offense.

That second half offense was the best in baseball. With threats in the lineup 1-8. It also featured, for the first time since Delgado in his prime, a legitimate cleanup hitter. A guy that made pitchers shake when he was in the on-deck circle.

Now, I realize that Cespedes, in reality, is not really that guy. He just did a good job of pretending to be him for 6 weeks. So even if we re-sign him we can expect a dropoff. But I want the Mets, this winter, to go out and try to replace Murphy and the Super-Human version of Cespedes with the best options available. And if that means opening up the budget, open it up dammit!

If the first half offense was a 1, and the second half offense was a 10, I'd like to see the offense be a 7 or 8 going into April. And the pieces are certainly available this winter to make it happen.

My fear is that the Mets are going to go with second rate options (like they did last Winter) and go into Spring with a level 4 offense, and then talk about how they have "improved" from the offense of first half 2015.

[Ceetar]

a 'level 4' offense is actually fine though. Don't play guys that are holes are broken and you'll still score a few runs, which wins games with this pitching.

I like the flexibility of being able to adjust via callups and trades midseason with what doesn't work. Their are guys you could spend for, and they'd be good ways to go, but I just don't think it's the only way they have to/should go. Maybe Heyward's demand is crazy ridiculous, and it's not the end of the world if they pivot from that plan in a different direction. I just don't know if that one slam-dunk guy that'll produce a 120+ wRC+ in the middle of the lineup is out there, and fits, with any certainty.

We just know so much more about what the team needs in June than in December. Maybe Cuddyer is back to normal, or maybe he's just flat out broken. Maybe it's Wright that's on the DL, or Flores.. That's how you get situations like "Hmm, I wonder if Lagares could play second.."

[Centerfield]

Ceetar wrote: a 'level 4' offense is actually fine though.

I'm starting to realize that this is the thinking of many people here. I don't understand it, I don't agree with it. But if one thinks this way, I get why that person would not have an issue with the Wilpons. Because it's "good enough".

For me, I think the owners have a responsibility to field the best team they possibly can. And with this team, having five of the best young pitchers in team history (rotation + Familia), the team has the potential to be legendary. This is when you put the pedal to the metal. This is not a time to let up and coast. These next few years could be the greatest of all time. I don't understand settling for "fine".

But it's clear that many of you guys don't want a payroll increase, or at least, may be indifferent to it. I don't think that it's because you refute that a top tier payroll gives a competitive advantage. I think that is not really disputed.

So that leads me to conclude that there must be some other reason to not want this edge. Stemming from a sense of romance? Nobility? Wanting to be different than the Yankees? Maybe large payroll teams are fascist, and winning on a limited budget is more democratic. I don't know. But there must be something to it.

I guess we just think differently.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Guest

[Ceetar]

I dunno, to me it stems from not thinking the owners have a responsibility to do much of anything. The Wilpons are mostly crap owners, I suspect most owners are, but the #1 thing I want is the Mets playing baseball. That's probably like..70% of what I need from them, and at least 25% of the rest of it is covered now with fun players and a competitive team. Maybe I'm too complacent, but I'm going to enjoy 2016 regardless so I just can't get worked up about demanding they operate a certain way or to a certain budget.

I don't mean I _want_ the Mets to have a level 4 offense, just that if that's what they end up with to start, I still think they're a pretty good and competitive team.

[Centerfield]

And in the long run, your approach is probably healthier.

When it comes to being a fan in the offseason, you are "just-happy-to-be-here" Justin Turner.

And I am "way-too-intense" Paul O'Neill, screaming and throwing my helmet at the Wilpons.

[metsmarathon]

put me down in the "i hope they get denard span" category. i think he's a great fit with the way the team is built, and would form an effective 4-man rotation with grandy, lagares, and conforto.

i am not relying on, and am hoping hte mets also do not rely upon, michael cuddyer being a significant outfield presence next season, unless disaster strikes. and i really don't want that disaster to be "the offseason".

[Ceetar]

metsmarathon wrote: put me down in the "i hope they get denard span" category. i think he's a great fit with the way the team is built, and would form an effective 4-man rotation with grandy, lagares, and conforto.

Span's a nice player.

Who's recently had a hip surgery? Curious if there are any year-after effects with that one.

[Frayed Knot]

Centerfield wrote: My takeaway: FK thinks the Cespedes at-bats are going to Lagares, and to a lesser extent, Cuddyer.

Yeah, that's not remotely what I'm saying.

I should probably just drop this since nothing's being solved but I'll try just one more quick one.
-- All I am doing here is poo-pooing the idea (mostly floated by Mex17) that we're going to sign a top-tier FA OF AND keep all of the current ones under multi-year deals and simply make them high-priced back ups and/or platoon partners for each other or the new import(s). Cespedes was a temporary import brought in for a pennant drive at a time when several OFs (Lagares & Cuddyer) were injured and/or sucking and Conforto had just been brought up. The same 'get out of this guy's way' moves aren't going to be made if/when a permanent replacement w/a multi-year deal is brought in.


1) If Sandy DOES sign a Hayward-type it's going to be INSTEAD OF someone current not in addition to.
2) Signing a complimentary type of player instead (as mentioned in one of the linked articles above) does not condemn the bench to eternal suckiness.

[Centerfield]

Gotcha.

I still think the Lagares/Grandy platoon works and opens up a spot (whether CF for Heyward or RF for Upton).

You'd hope over time, Lagares would produce in a way to eventually earn his way to the lion's share of at-bats (Granderson gets older, Lagares comes into his prime). That way he's ready to take over full time once Curtis's contract is up.

I think that your analysis means that Span is pretty unlikely.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Buster Olney wrote: Buster Olney ?@Buster_ESPN 59m59 minutes ago The Mets continue to look at Dexter Fowler as a possibility for their outfield. Ben Zobrist is their focus at the moment.

[Edgy MD]

Fowler's a pretty good player. Could certainly do well by making a little more contact.

[Benjamin Grimm]

He'll cost a draft pick. I'm not sure how much that will matter to the Mets.

[Ceetar]

hmm, didn't think Fowler was that good, but those are some pretty nice numbers, particularly for a CFer. He's been streaky with the defensive numbers, but was average last year after being pretty bad in 2014, mostly by making a lot more of the 'Likely' plays. I'd blame that on a smaller Wrigley but he had a similar year with the Rockies two years ago.

I wonder what he's expected to get, money-wise.

[Edgy MD]

I get the idea that the Mets feel that they have a way around those rules. Lose a draft pick, drop your first round money in the foreign market. Artificial market constraints stop you from adding to your system that way? Trade for Dilson Herrera.

I'm sure they'd like to keep their picks if they can, but it's not like development has to be arrested.

Asides, they get a pick back if they lose Murphy (Sign Murphy NOW!!!!) anyways.

[Guest d'Kong76]

rotoworlddotcom's comment on Olney's news:

The Mets have reportedly considered multiple outfielders on the free agent market, including Denard Span and Gerardo Parra. Fowler would likely command a bigger role and more money than either of those two options, so perhaps the Mets are weighing a possible trade involving Juan Lagares. Fowler batted .250/.346/.411 with 17 home runs and 20 stolen bases this past season as a member of the Cubs. It's worth noting that he declined a qualifying offer to test the open market, so he's attached to draft pick compensation. Dec 2 - 3:04 PM

[ashie62]

Fowler does little for me.

[Centerfield]

rotoworlddotcom's comment on Olney's news: The Mets have reportedly considered multiple outfielders on the free agent market, including Denard Span and Gerardo Parra. Fowler would likely command a bigger role and more money than either of those two options, so perhaps the Mets are weighing a possible trade involving Juan Lagares. Fowler batted .250/.346/.411 with 17 home runs and 20 stolen bases this past season as a member of the Cubs. It's worth noting that he declined a qualifying offer to test the open market, so he's attached to draft pick compensation. Dec 2 - 3:04 PM

There's an Onion article to be written here.

Mets have been involved in discussions with every player available this winter except the three or four that can actually make them better.

[Guest d'Kong76]

Guess I'll just go back behind the curtain...

[batmagadanleadoff]

Centerfield wrote: Mets have been involved in discussions with every player available this winter except the three or four that can actually make them better.

Don't worry. The Mets have a great plan in place, at least according to the tabloids. The Mets intend to lure Ben Zobrist, their main target, by offering him less money and less years than he'll likely get from every other team interested in him. If that plan fails, and me, personally, I don't see how, but still, if they can't get Zobrist, they'll try to re-sign Murphy by offering him less money and less years than he'll surely get from every other team interested in him.

Isn't this great?

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Splash the pot on Span (and Zobrist), and any overpay is likely more than made up for by not losing Lagares (via a clear room for Fowler, trade-low scenario)/a draft pick, no?