2016 Baseball HoF Voting

[bmfc1]

Heyman didn't vote for Piazza because he "looked the part". Idiot.
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/25430742/why-bonds-and-seven-others-got-my-hall-vote-though-not-clemens

[Edgy MD]

I think these guys have learned that if you sew some infuriating nonsense into your HoF voting column, you'll get the most clicks you get all year.

[Guest Mets Guy in Michigan]

Appalling.

17. Mike Piazza. He should be considered an all-time great -- he's the greatest-hitting catcher ever and the value of having a catcher who's one of the league's best hitters is immense -- but he's had to wait a few years surely due to a strongly-held belief he participated in the steroid era. I understand there's no public evidence he did anything more than play in the steroid era and looked the part. However, since this isn't a court of law, the burden of proof is much lower and since it's only about who is honored, and not who is punished, I held out for now. He rose to just under 70 percent last year, but the elimination of much of the old guard will likely have the unintended consequence of pushing Piazza into the Hall. Early polling, while unscientific, suggests he will make it easily. I certainly understand that, too. Prediction: 81 percent. (elected)

Jeter "participated" in the steroid era. I suspect that won't be mentioned.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

N4n, Piazza did look the part. And I think his being less than forthcoming in his own book almost counts against him doubly.

[Ceetar]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: N4n, Piazza did look the part. And I think his being less than forthcoming in his own book almost counts against him doubly.

I wonder if writing the book was detrimental. I definitely saw a few people reason "Well, let's see what he says in the book first" for not voting for him the first time. But not giving juicy tidbits, it's almost like they think it proves there are juicy tidbits.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

If he had offered tidbits, they'd have hanged him for the tidbits.

Were I him, it would have been hard to resist trolling the living hell out of the Heymen on nearly every page. Like, ending every chapter with something like

But the power STILL wouldn't develop. I talked to friends, coaches, my Dad.... heck, I prayed on it. And that's when, stigma be damned, I made the decision to use






those resistance bands my aunt had bought me for my birthday, even though they were pink. PINK! Like, totally queer, right?

[nymr83]

If he had offered tidbits, they'd have hanged him for the tidbits. Were I him, it would have been hard to resist trolling the living hell out of the Heymen on nearly every page. Like, ending every chapter with something like But the power STILL wouldn't develop. I talked to friends, coaches, my Dad.... heck, I prayed on it. And that's when, stigma be damned, I made the decision to use those resistance bands my aunt had bought me for my birthday, even though they were pink. PINK! Like, totally queer, right?

Next Chapter: the resistance bands didn't do the trick and the Home Runs still wouldn't come. I never liked the idea of putting artificial stuff in my body, but I finally bit the bullet and went to this shady pharmacy so I could take

Flintstones Vitamins.

[Edgy MD]

Heyman, by the way, is out at CBS Sports.

Still trolling for MLBNetwork and WFAN.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

We're at 35% or so (158 votes), as per Ryan Thibodaux, and Bagwell and Raines (sadface), while still above the threshold in the sample, are fading into iffy-when-you-consider-the-crow-yet-to-be-counted territory (79.7, 77.8 respectively). Looks like it's time to book those bed-and-breakfast rooms, though, backwards-baseball-hat (100% yet) and bacne fans (86.7%).

Citing newly-completed, historically-comprehensive looks at catcher defense, 538.com's Ben Lindbergh makes the case for Mike P's defensive prowess here.

Cumulatively, Piazza is by far the least-valuable throwing catcher since 1950, trailing the second-worst, Todd Hundley, by more than 16 runs... But he also places in the 74th percentile as a pitch-framer, and the 89th percentile as a pitch-blocker. His arm was just as bad as the naysayers believed, but that weakness wasn’t crippling, and he more than made up for it by blocking balls in the dirt and eking out extra strikes.

[nymr83]

a great post-career redemption for Piazza's defense. pitch-framing has only come into the public mind in the last few years, but i wonder how long some of the smarter teams have been keeping their own data

[batmagadanleadoff]

Pitch framing's been around and recognized since way before we were born, probably as long as there was fast pitch baseball. I remember reading about it when I was still in elementary school. What's new about it is that its value can now apparently be measured and quantified.

[Frayed Knot]

Davidoff opts for the camp that tosses PED questions aside and goes all Bonds, Clemens, Bagwell & Piazza on his ballot. Also casts for Griffey, Edgar, Schilling, Mussina, Trammell, Larry Walker.

"... here are my parameters regarding illegal performance-enhancing drugs: If Major League Baseball suspended a player for an on-field transgression, I consider that damaging, although not disqualifying, to his candidacy. Barring such discipline, it’s irrelevant ... [and] I’m not going to penalize Bonds for making the decisions he did — the same decisions that countless of his contemporaries made — during a time when he mostly faced no real danger of consequences. He is arguably the greatest hitter in the game’s history."


Results tomorrow.

[Frayed Knot]

btw, on the question of Piazza's defense, have just been reading Pedro's recent autobio -- and while he doesn't quite trash Mike and his catching abilities (maybe being honest, maybe being polite) it's clear he didn't think much of them. The lack of throwing skills was obviously part of it but he also thought MP's long & bulky body gave away far too many pitch locations ahead of time as he was clanking around back there. He much preferred Ramon Castro while w/the NYM.


[fimg=150:2fy3z9y0]https://lifetimetopps.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/pedro-book-cover.jpg[/fimg:2fy3z9y0]

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: btw, on the question of Piazza's defense, have just been reading Pedro's recent autobio -- and while he doesn't quite trash Mike and his catching abilities (maybe being honest, maybe being polite) it's clear he didn't think much of them. The lack of throwing skills was obviously part of it but he also thought MP's long & bulky body gave away far too many pitch locations ahead of time as he was clanking around back there. He much preferred Ramon Castro while w/the NYM.

that's interesting. Of course, he's full of it. Another classic Moneyball example of a player not really understanding the game.

K/BB with Castro in 2005, 2.97. With Piazza 7! There was a higher SB success rate, 3/6 with Castro instead of 7/8 with Piazza and just a tad over 100 IP with each. The ERA is a tick lower with Castro but the OPS against is .052 points higher

In 2006 his numbers were better with Lo Duca than with Castro as well, though not as starkly but he wasn't as good a pitcher in '06 either.

The Mets finished 7 games out in '05 so it doesn't really matter, but it would've been at least a little bit closer had Pedro not insisted on pitching to Castro.

[Centerfield]

I'd have to read the actual text FK is alluding to, but results aside, if Pedro is saying he preferred pitching to Castro for whatever reason, real or imagined, I don't think you can question him on that.

[Ceetar]

I'm not questioning what he preferred, I'm pointing at evidence that what he preferred was detrimental.

[Frayed Knot]

Of course some of Pedro's opinion of Piazza was formed back in their Dodger days together so the one year of NYM stats aren't the only story.
Basically he just mentioned how his FA contract w/the Mets brought him back with Piazza though he preferred pitching to Castro even while he recognized Randolph's need to get Piazza in the lineup as often as possible. In his one full year with the Mets Pedro's starts were divided almost exactly between the two catchers. There were rumors during his NYM time (mostly flogged at the time by Mad Dog, IIRC) that Piazza & Pedro's brother Ramon had clashed during their LA days and that Pedro was anti-Mike because of that. If so the book doesn't mention it.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Pedro's a smart dude, but, hell, even for savants, what's comfortable isn't necessarily what's good for us. I mean, ask a heroin user if he prefers to be high.

Back to the voting, though, some Digital Dandy* writer or other recently said something to the effect of, looking at these ballots, you can pretty plainly tell the difference between those who love baseball and those who simply made a living reporting on it. I don't remember who it was, but I agree wholeheartedly. (I do remember he counted Noble among those who enjoy the "gatekeeper"/access thing more than they actually love, or even like, the sport. Sadly, I get a similar feeling from his writing/opinions.)

[Centerfield]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Pedro's a smart dude, but, hell, even for savants, what's comfortable isn't necessarily what's good for us. I mean, ask a heroin user if he prefers to be high. Back to the voting, though, some Digital Dandy* writer or other recently said something to the effect of, looking at these ballots, you can pretty plainly tell the difference between those who love baseball and those who simply made a living reporting on it. I don't remember who it was, but I agree wholeheartedly. (I do remember he counted Noble among those who enjoy the "gatekeeper"/access thing more than they actually love, or even like, the sport. Sadly, I get a similar feeling from his writing/opinions.)

I read that too. Agree wholeheartedly on Marty Noble.

On the other end of the spectrum, there is Ken Rosenthal. So likeable. And seems to really love covering the game.

[Benjamin Grimm]

If Piazza does get elected today, the next "hot topic" will be what cap he wears on his plaque.

The Los Angeles Times has already started the discussion:

The Dodgers' uncomfortable winter could take a bitter turn Wednesday, when the best hitter the team has developed since moving to Los Angeles could be elected to the Hall of Fame and promptly remind the world he wants to be immortalized in the cap of the New York Mets.

Full article: Mike Piazza's desire to enter Hall of Fame in a Mets cap speaks volumes about the Dodgers' ills

[Ceetar]

good to put 'hot' in quotation marks since I feel like this has been discussed for at least 8 years. reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too.

[Guest Mets Willets Point]

Ceetar wrote: reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too.

It would be cool if they designed it with the catcher's mask pulled up over his head, although I don't know if they can get that artistic with a relief sculpture on a plaque.

[Zvon]

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Ceetar wrote: reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too. It would be cool if they designed it with the catcher's mask pulled up over his head, although I don't know if they can get that artistic with a relief sculpture on a plaque.

I think it could be done w/o a problem. This is a great idea aside from the fact I really want to see more Met caps in the hall.


I'm okay if GriffJR breaks Seaver's record. He would be a worthy successor. I don't lump Ken with the juicers.
And there is no chance Jeter would ever break Tom's record. Mark my words on that score.

[Ceetar]

Zvon wrote: And there is no chance Jeter would ever break Tom's record. Mark my words on that score.

Too many people don't vote for any whiff of PED scandals, so yeah, no chance he's close.

[Zvon]

How long are they gonna drag this out.

I never saw Sherman live before. He was good. He said some interesting things about the steroid age but I will not be swayed. If there's evidence, in my book you never get in. Questionmark players (like they say Piazza is) get the benefit of the doubt from me (as long as their neck isn't thicker than their waist).

Good luck to Griffey Jr.
I predict he goes in at 99.8. %
Piazza, 86 %.


OE: Oh, 6pm. So they will talk 3 hours about this? Oy.

[stevejrogers]

Ceetar wrote: good to put 'hot' in quotation marks since I feel like this has been discussed for at least 8 years. reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too.

To be fair, I doubt Beltran elicits too many warm fuzzies with most of his fanbases to justify a "hot topic" debate over who's cap he'd wear.

On top of that, I'd imagine he'd have a McGriff/Sheffield type of journey through the balloting process.

[Ceetar]

SteveJRogers wrote: Ceetar wrote: good to put 'hot' in quotation marks since I feel like this has been discussed for at least 8 years. reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too. To be fair, I doubt Beltran elicits too many warm fuzzies with most of his fanbases to justify a "hot topic" debate over who's cap he'd wear. On top of that, I'd imagine he'd have a McGriff/Sheffield type of journey through the balloting process.

perhaps, but lots of people I follow and talk are rabidly pro-Beltran in both cases. He's easily one of my favorite Mets all-time.

[stevejrogers]

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: good to put 'hot' in quotation marks since I feel like this has been discussed for at least 8 years. reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too. To be fair, I doubt Beltran elicits too many warm fuzzies with most of his fanbases to justify a "hot topic" debate over who's cap he'd wear. On top of that, I'd imagine he'd have a McGriff/Sheffield type of journey through the balloting process. perhaps, but lots of people I follow and talk are rabidly pro-Beltran in both cases. He's easily one of my favorite Mets all-time.

I've seen lots of people prop up Billy Wagner as a HOFer and it looks like he's a one-and-done.

[Ceetar]

SteveJRogers wrote: I've seen lots of people prop up Billy Wagner as a HOFer and it looks like he's a one-and-done.

He probably is.

Bonds, Clemens, Griffey, Hoffman, Martinez, McGwuire, Schilling, Sosa, Wagner was my IBWAA ballot.

[nymr83]

Wagner just didnt pitch enough innings for me.