Is this Piazza's year?

[Edgy MD]

Nymr83 wrote: Bacne Man's hanging on by the skin of his teeth. Impressive how Bonds and Clemens seems to be a single decision for a lot of voters. Aren't they though? they both fall into the category of having undeniable credentials and proven steroid use. i dont think anyone else has ever fallen into both categories before (McGwire is closest, but hes been on the ballot longer and failed enough already that his supporters may be allocatig their maximum of 10 votes elsewhere)

How about Sosa? The dude has become little more than an afterthought.

OE: Palmiero too. He got Whitakered last year on his fourth year on the ballot.

[Guest d'Kong76]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Marty Noble on MLB channel discussing his vote makes about the best case for radical changes required. He's like a demented nightclub doorman.

That's a great line there.

[stevejrogers]

Frayed Knot wrote: Randy Johnson - Traded at age 25 after 10 ML starts + 1 relief appearance John Smoltz - Traded as a 20 y/o minor leaguer Pedro Martinez - Traded at age 22 after 67 games pitched but just 2 starts There might be a lesson in there somewhere but I think it's subject to interpretation.

Just as cherry picking trolling as mentioning Generation K when making an argument for moving highly touted prospects when their stock is at their highest.

FWIW, the Johnson and Smoltz deals were classic prospects for "missing piece rental" deadline deals, Mark Langston, who ended up only being in Montreal for that stretch in 1989, signed with California that offseason and Doyle Alexander who did help the 1987 Tigers to the division down the stretch, but only lasted two more seasons.

Pedro was moved from the Dodgers in an 1993 offseason deal for Delino DeShields, who had a pretty unproductive three seasons in LA as Pedro became a star with the Expos. Probably more in line with a Ryan for Fergosi type of move where a change in scenery did more to help a developing talent find himself.

[seawolf17]

2106 potential ballot: http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2016.shtml

Griffey is obvious. Piazza probably gets over the hump, and Bagwell and Raines will probably get close.

[Edgy MD]

That's some Hall of Fame form right there.

[Benjamin Grimm]

"Pedro Martinez's first-ballot selection to the Hall of Fame is a fitting tribute to his illustrious career," said Mets COO Jeff Wilpon. "During his time with us he brought an air of professionalism to the field and to the locker room and was a source of excitement for our fans. We want to congratulate, Pedro, his wife Carolina and the rest of the Martinez family on his historic day."

[Edgy MD]

I considered Carolina, but there just wasn't enough room on my ballot.

[bmfc1]

Five of the ones that didn't vote for Mike Piazza and to them I say "F y'all":
Heyman
Noble
Sherman
Verducci
Dan Shaughnessy.

[Valadius]

Worth laying out the upcoming contenders:

2016
Ken Griffey, Jr. - Will hit a percentage somewhere near Seaver.
Trevor Hoffman - All-time saves leader at time of retirement, with 601.
Jim Edmonds - 8-time Gold Glove winner, 4-time All-Star, 393 HRs
Billy Wagner - 422 saves is 2nd among LHPs, career ERA of 2.31, career WHIP of 0.998
Also in this class - Luis Castillo, Mike Hampton, Chan Ho Park, Mike Sweeney, Jason Kendall

2017
Vladimir Guerrero - Find it hard to believe he won't get in on the first ballot, but something tells me that's what happens, because Hall voters are morons.
Ivan Rodriguez - In many ways the "other" great catcher of Piazza's era. Probably gets in but not on first ballot.
Manny Ramirez - Worthy numbers, but multiple positive PED tests probably keep him out.
Jorge Posada - MFY hacks will make a push for him, but destined for the Hall of Very Good
Also in this class - Mike Cameron, Pat Burrell, Magglio Ordonez, Edgar Renteria, Jason Varitek

2018
Jim Thome - 612 HRs. Should be first-ballot guy.
Chipper Jones - Also probably first-ballot guy.
Omar Vizquel - Defensive wizard, won 11 Gold Gloves, but also 2,877 hits, 404 SBs and 1,445 runs scored. Most games played at SS in history at 2,709.
Andruw Jones - 10 Gold Gloves, 5-time All-Star.
Johnny Damon - 2,769 hits, 408 SBs, 2004 World Series star.
Scott Rolen - 8 Gold Gloves, 7-time All-Star. 316 HRs, 1,287 RBI
Jamie Moyer - The Pitcher That Never Got Old. 269 wins in 25 seasons.
Also in this class - Jason Isringhausen, Livan Hernandez, Chris Carpenter, Carlos Lee, Hideki Matsui, Kerry Wood

2019
Mariano Rivera - Will test just how much love closers have from Hall voters. Can a closer break 90%?
Roy Halladay - The workhorse of his generation who should make it in.
Andy Pettitte - 256 wins in 18 seasons, most postseason wins.
Todd Helton - Great 1B but how much of that was Coors?
Also in this class - Lance Berkman, Darren Oliver, Roy Oswalt, Michael Young

2020
Derek Jeter - Boston writers may keep him from Seaver's record.
Paul Konerko - 439 HRs, 1,412 RBI
Alfonso Soriano - 412 HRs, 289 SBs
Also in this class (so far) Kevin Youkilis

[Zvon]

Centerfield wrote: Lots of strange things going on: 1. Clemens gets four more votes than Bonds. 2. Someone voted for Darin Erstad. 3. 4 people voted for Troy Percival. Once you do something as stupid as voting for Darin Erstad or Troy Percival, your right to vote should be revoked. Dumb system. Let me take that back, dumb writers. If I were the Mets, I'd retire Piazza's number this year anyway. And as part of the ceremony, I'd take select quotes from Marty Noble and illustrate the kind of idiots that are keeping Mike out of the HOF.

Ugh. Disgraceful.
I like the retired # idea.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

AWL CLASS DAT PIAZZA

Mike Piazza ?@mikepiazza31 15m15 minutes ago Sincere Congrats to #HOF2015 class! An Amazing Class! Special Thanks To the Voters!! Very Emotional Thank You to All Fans for the Support.

[Ceetar]

Valadius wrote: Jim Thome - 612 HRs. Should be first-ballot guy.

Sosa had 609 and got what, 6% of the vote?

[Gwreck]

Ceetar wrote: Valadius wrote: Jim Thome - 612 HRs. Should be first-ballot guy. Sosa had 609 and got what, 6% of the vote?

Jim Thome career WAR 72.9 (9th all time for first basemen)
Sosa career WAR 58.4 (outside the top 20 for right fielders)

They're not anywhere close to the same player, before any other nonsense comes in about steroids.

[Guest themetfairy]

I blame Long Shot. The book made him look like a petulant child, and probably cost him enough votes to keep him out.

[Valadius]

Worth noting... self-appointed baseball pope Bob Costas was making the case for raising the number of ballot selections from 10 to 12 or 15 on MLB Network just now.

[Ceetar]

Gwreck wrote: Ceetar wrote: Valadius wrote: Jim Thome - 612 HRs. Should be first-ballot guy. Sosa had 609 and got what, 6% of the vote? Jim Thome career WAR 72.9 (9th all time for first basemen) Sosa career WAR 58.4 (outside the top 20 for right fielders) They're not anywhere close to the same player, before any other nonsense comes in about steroids.

I dunno, that's 58-73 isn't a huge difference for a stat that's not a precision stat. I get positional adjustments and all that, Thome's a better player, not sure I see him as a shoe-in though, nor based solely on the '612 HR'

[stevejrogers]

themetfairy wrote: I blame Long Shot. The book made him look like a petulant child, and probably cost him enough votes to keep him out.

I've seen a tin foil theory put forth that his faith and politics actually may have something to do with people who do not share his political or religious beliefs not voting for him.

[stevejrogers]

Valadius wrote: Worth noting... self-appointed baseball pope Bob Costas was making the case for raising the number of ballot selections from 10 to 12 or 15 on MLB Network just now.

That might hurt more than it would help. While I disagree that everyone should hit the 10 max, I'd wager a lot more people vote for less than 5 a year than those that do 8-10 a year.

[Ceetar]

SteveJRogers wrote: themetfairy wrote: I blame Long Shot. The book made him look like a petulant child, and probably cost him enough votes to keep him out. I've seen a tin foil theory put forth that his faith and politics actually may have something to do with people who do not share his political or religious beliefs not voting for him.

'character clause' means "hey, I don't like you."

but the book came out after the first vote. In fact, I imagine the publishers/agent figured he'd get in and it'd be great for sales since he'd be in the news and all that.

But there were actually writers who said things like "I want to see if he admits to PEDs in the book" and left him off. (Heyman I believe)

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

The book was a no-win for Piazza even if it wasn't a jocky piece of garbage.

Deny roids and look like a liar or admit it and face that music.

Me personally? I think he was the juiciest. But I'd still vote for him noting his importance to the game and domination in the inflated era. Him and Bonds and Clemens, dammit.

This idiotic stunt the writers pulled a year ago continues to disgrace the institution.

[stevejrogers]

Ceetar wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: themetfairy wrote: I blame Long Shot. The book made him look like a petulant child, and probably cost him enough votes to keep him out. I've seen a tin foil theory put forth that his faith and politics actually may have something to do with people who do not share his political or religious beliefs not voting for him. 'character clause' means "hey, I don't like you." but the book came out after the first vote. In fact, I imagine the publishers/agent figured he'd get in and it'd be great for sales since he'd be in the news and all that. But there were actually writers who said things like "I want to see if he admits to PEDs in the book" and left him off. (Heyman I believe)

And that probably still didn't change a lot of voter's minds!

I'd imagine they see his OTC andro use and conger up visions of Piazza using it to cover up the injection roids ala McGwire.

FWIW, I think a lot of Schilling's lack of votes actually do come from him being outspoken on topics that go counter to what is popular among members of the media. It isn't that outlandish to think that, where unless the stats are just so overwhelming that it does look petty to use someone's attitude and demeanor against them (Carlton, Murray) that they'll use that as a reason privately and whatever "ah I just don't see him as a true HALL OF FAMER" excuse publicly.

[Guest themetfairy]

The book indeed came out after last year's idiotic vote, based on the assumption that he would be entering the HOF last year. But I think his constant complaining (including about beloved icons such as Vin Scully and Tommy Lasorda) will haunt him in future votes. I don't think that it has anything to do with politics or his faith, but I do think that he did his image a disservice.

[Ceetar]

Also when he showed up the the Last Game At Shea he didn't talk to Murray Chass about bacne so..

[Benjamin Grimm]

Why would writers not vote for him because of his politics or his faith? I know he's a devout Catholic. I don't see why that would be controversial. Is anyone afraid that he would be a pawn of the pope at the annual Cooperstown gatherings? And what are his politics anyway? Republican, I guess? I doubt he'd be the first, or even the two hundredth, Republican in the Hall.

[Ceetar]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Why would writers not vote for him because of his politics or his faith? I know he's a devout Catholic. I don't see why that would be controversial. Is anyone afraid that he would be a pawn of the pope at the annual Cooperstown gatherings? And what are his politics anyway? Republican, I guess? I doubt he'd be the first, or even the two hundredth, Republican in the Hall.

Because people throw hissy fits and literally kill people over politics and faith? I don't know that that's the case with Piazza who seems to fit all the right molds, but it could certainly be the case with others. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if there are writers who try their hardest not to vote for black guys. This isn't some pinnacle of humanity inducting humans into some pillar of humanity, they're just people picking great players.

[Frayed Knot]

I don't know that perceived personal likes or dislikes enter into things as much as is often assumed. Non-votes, even the ones you may not agree with, usually have more logical explanations.
- non 1st-ballot worthy. I personally despise this reasoning, and it no longer applies to MP here, but we all know it goes on.
- writer disagrees that he's HoF worthy. In Piazza's case I'm sure some will make the argument that he wasn't a complete enough player
- others more worthy of vote and he ran out of choices. We all know about the log-jam that has cropped up over the last few years due to several factors. It seems like that's going to lessen in the near future and if all that happens is that some get in on their 4th year of eligibility rather than their 1st or 2nd it won't be the end of the world
- others more worthy and writer self-limits to even fewer than ten. Noble this year falls into this one as the idea of more than two at a time is apparently too crass for his tastes
- PED suspicion. Some are going to ignore this, some are going to apply it to the worst cheaters only, and others are using the topic to deny anyone where there was even a hint of a rumor

[Vic Sage]

i think we're over-complicating this issue. Some (enough) writers have already demonstrated (and specifically articulated) their objection to voting for anybody with PED taint, even if its only based on here-say, rumor and innuendo. Whether enough of them get over it (with regard to Piazza and Bagwell at least) remains to be seen, but with regards to those players who either admitted it, or failed a test, or both, i don't think they'll ever vote them in and will instead leave it to the veteran's committee to sort it out. I think that was the basis for cutting the eligibility period from 15 years to 10 years, so guys like McGwire, Bonds and Clemens will fall off the ballot sooner rather than later.

Even if a writer wants to use the "character" clause to keep out the roiders, they should still use the same journalistic standards for determining who fits that definition that they would be obligated to use if they were to file a story accusing such players. It can't be just based on rumor or a "feeling", any more than it could if they were going to publish such an assertion and then be liable for defamation.

[Ceetar]

Vic Sage wrote: Even if a writer wants to use the "character" clause to keep out the roiders, they should still use the same journalistic standards for determining who fits that definition that they would be obligated to use if they were to file a story accusing such players. It can't be just based on rumor or a "feeling", any more than it could if they were going to publish such an assertion and then be liable for defamation.

yes, they SHOULD use the same journalistic standards they supposedly abide by. Doesn't mean they agree with that, or that they do. Since writers have flat-out said "It feels like he used" as justification, they clearly don't.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Ceetar wrote: This isn't some pinnacle of humanity inducting humans into some pillar of humanity, they're just people picking great players.

I just think it's ridiculous to assert that someone would have trouble being selected because they're Catholic or Republican.

[Valadius]

I don't know of any objection to Piazza's personal views. The only person on the ballot who comes to mind with objectionable personal views/non-baseball life is Schilling, what with costing the taxpayers of Rhode Island a boatload on his failed video game venture and his politics, but he should get in by 2019.