He says it now, but will he mean it later?

[batmagadanleadoff]

Carlos Beltran Could See Himself Going Into Hall Of Fame As A Met

Also, don't count your chickens ....

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Who cares

[batmagadanleadoff]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Who cares

Who do you think you are? Me?

[Theoldmole]

Who cares

Couldn't this legitimately be said about every post on every sports forum?

[Frayed Knot]

TheOldMole wrote: Who cares Couldn't this legitimately be said about every post on every sports forum?

In the whole 'what sports arguments mean in the grand scheme of life on this planet' point of view? -- Sure.
But, even considering that as a starting point, I've always thought this topic to be particularly inane. Too many seem to take this whole 'what you go in as' discussion way too seriously and this is all assuming for the moment that we know Beltran is even going to get there (hardly a slam-dunk).

A player gets elected for the totality of his career and not just a specific portion of it. If the hat on the plaque (and really that's all this is about) shows a KC logo as opposed to a NYM one it doesn't mean he was any less a Met or that he'd be any more of one if we reverse the case. ALL the teams he played with are still going to be listed either way and Met fans (the ones who don't already hate him anyway) will still be able to claim that another player from their team is going into the HoF.

For the record, he spent more time as a NYM than as a Royal and, even with all that DL time thrown in, still had slightly more games played and ABs as well. I'm sure with the time spent being so close the poobahs at Cooperstown will allow him leeway in how he wants it displayed but I, for one, won't be fretting the decision or opt to think of him any differently based on his choice.

[Ceetar]

Frayed Knot wrote: A player gets elected for the totality of his career and not just a specific portion of it. If the hat on the plaque (and really that's all this is about) shows a KC logo as opposed to a NYM one it doesn't mean he was any less a Met or that he'd be any more of one if we reverse the case.

I'm just concerned, hell they've already re-issued it, that the Mets themselves won't honor him properly if/when he does get in. They should retire 15 and given history it seems the only real shot of that is if he goes in as a Met.

So much of it's perception though. And it's one of the few things that anger me about how other people are fans. We gave Mike Piazza a curtain call for his SECOND home run of the day against us with the Padres in his return. Carlos Beltran should've gotten at least that honor at the freaking All-Star Game.

[Edgy MD]

I think the point is that the logo on the hat doesn't mean he "goes in as" a Royal or Met or Giant or Cardinal or Orix Buffalo at all. It's a just a bronze snapshot, imperfectly representative of his career. It doesn't mean his name is forever linked in Heaven exclusively to that employer alone.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Reissuing a uniform number does not preclude it from being retired. For example, Ray Borque wore the number 7 for the Bruins until the day it was retired for Phil Esposito. Borque handing over the jersey was part of the retirement ceremony.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: I think the point is that the logo on the hat doesn't mean he "goes in as" a Royal or Met or Giant or Cardinal or Orix Buffalo at all. It's a just a bronze snapshot, imperfectly representative of his career. It doesn't mean his name is forever linked in Heaven exclusively to that employer alone.

sure, but I think the Mets might see it that way. Alex Anthony gave the nice pause for emphasis before announcing Beltran but no one really took the hint.

Mets � Willets Point wrote: Reissuing a uniform number does not preclude it from being retired. For example, Ray Borque wore the number 7 for the Bruins until the day it was retired for Phil Esposito. Borque handing over the jersey was part of the retirement ceremony.

who knows, Maybe the Mets sign him up again! I'm just over-analyzing the Mets thought process regarding it. They obviously didn't re-issue 31 and you think someone, somewhere, would have the thought "Hey, we've got plenty of numbers and Carlos Beltran is one of the best Mets ever..maybe hold it a bit while we mull it over." This is premature, but when Beltran does retire which is probably a couple of years away, if d'Arnaud is awesome are you going to take it away from him? Will he give it up ala John Franco?

[stevejrogers]

Yeah, you are doing a bit too much over thinking with this there Cee.

Yes Beltran belongs on the top of a conversation among the best offensive Mets of all time, but there are a ton of factors why he isn't as beloved among Met fans. This conversation probably is better off being had when he finally hangs it up.

As far as keeping #15 out of circulation? Same thing, I think fans would be all "FOR HIM, REALLY!?" Doesn't have the same reverence yet that Jose Reyes would have. Fans complained for years about the hot potato-ing of #18 and #16, and even Keith himself has opined about the lackluster assignments #17 has received since he last played for the team. For whatever reason, Beltran never reached that level of importance by fans to be annoyed at the flotsam and jetsam that have worn the uniform number since Beltran left.

FWIW, its a shame Reyes is on the shelf, THAT would have been an interesting crowd reaction to gauge.

[Edgy MD]

Reyes Shmeyes. Many of us come from a generation shocked to see Ed Kranepool's number re-assigned in it's first free year to Hubie Brooks.

A small generation. And shocked to a minor degree, but...

[Guest cooby]

Well, there were so many less things to shock us back then...

[stevejrogers]

I'd be shocked to find ANYONE holding #7 in such reverence after Kranepool left!

Still kind of shocked that there are those clamoring that the Mets throw it on the wall in Kranepool's honor actually.

[Edgy MD]

It's a wonder any of us can breathe, what with all this shocking going on.

[Centerfield]

Carlos Beltran was one of the best Mets ever. I loved watching him play and rooting for him while he was here. I don't know if he will make the Hall of Fame, but I hope he does, and I hope he has a Mets logo on his plaque. It bothers me that so many Mets fans gripe about him and remember him for one at-bat. I think it's wrong.

I'm a sap. I hope that Reyes and Beltran are the significant additions we make to our lineup next winter. I hope that the Blue Jays continue to free-fall and dump Reyes to us paying half his salary. I hope Beltran signs a reasonable one-year deal and has a career year and sparks conversation of moving the CitiField fences back. And I hope they all get World Series rings.

So it matters to me. Your mileage may vary.

[Frayed Knot]

Cee - how the Mets wind up eventually honoring Beltran (or not) is a call they'll have to make at some point. If it turns out that they base that decision on what his plaque at Cooperstown looks like then shame on them and direct the anger that way, not to the plaque.

CF - I share your Carlos attitude, as well as bafflement at both the contemporaneous and continued negativity, but I don't see how this is affected by the plaque (if indeed that's what you're saying by "it matters", I can't tell).

[dgwphotography]

Centerfield wrote: Carlos Beltran was one of the best Mets ever. I loved watching him play and rooting for him while he was here. I don't know if he will make the Hall of Fame, but I hope he does, and I hope he has a Mets logo on his plaque. It bothers me that so many Mets fans gripe about him and remember him for one at-bat. I think it's wrong. I'm a sap. I hope that Reyes and Beltran are the significant additions we make to our lineup next winter. I hope that the Blue Jays continue to free-fall and dump Reyes to us paying half his salary. I hope Beltran signs a reasonable one-year deal and has a career year and sparks conversation of moving the CitiField fences back. And I hope they all get World Series rings. So it matters to me. Your mileage may vary.

I really like how you think :-)

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

Centerfield wrote: I'm a sap. I hope that Reyes and Beltran are the significant additions we make to our lineup next winter. I hope that the Blue Jays continue to free-fall and dump Reyes to us paying half his salary. I hope Beltran signs a reasonable one-year deal and has a career year and sparks conversation of moving the CitiField fences back. And I hope they all get World Series rings. So it matters to me. Your mileage may vary.

I agree with this, only I want Agbayani and Shinjo to come back for this World Series winning team as well.

[Guest Swan Swan H]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: Centerfield wrote: I'm a sap. I hope that Reyes and Beltran are the significant additions we make to our lineup next winter. I hope that the Blue Jays continue to free-fall and dump Reyes to us paying half his salary. I hope Beltran signs a reasonable one-year deal and has a career year and sparks conversation of moving the CitiField fences back. And I hope they all get World Series rings. So it matters to me. Your mileage may vary. I agree with this, only I want Agbayani and Shinjo to come back for this World Series winning team as well.

But not Dickey. JCL can only rein in one runaway ego on the starting staff at a time.

[nymr83]

Olerud and Alfonzo too, please.

[Vic Sage]

Beltran had 3 great years for the Mets, and 1 crappy one, and 3 partial seasons (2 interrupted by injury, 1 by trade). By that standard lets retire Olerud's number too. He had 3 great years, too. How about McReynolds? Cliff Floyd? Robin Ventura? Rusty Staub? There have been many good players who passed thru NY and put up 3,4,5 good-to-excellent seasons. That didn't make them Mets you paint on a wall forever.

Yes, in the end, Beltran will have been a better player than all of those, but he played for 2 teams before us, and 2 teams after, and he's not done yet. He is an excellent ballplayer who broke down on his way through town. That he's probably the best CFer we ever had says more about the history of Met CFers than it does about Beltran. Yes, maybe he's a HOFer... i hope that for him -- but he holds absolutely no place in my heart, except as the avatar of a team that didn't make it over the hump. He played with that easy effortlessness that smacks of disinterest and a lack of passion. It's the same odor i used to get from Kevin McReynolds, another excellent OFer who i wouldn't piss on if he burst into flame. but that's my own personal aesthetic judgement. In the end, I don't hate him for the strikeout. I don't hate him at all, actually. But watching him watch strike 3 was an exemplar of his Mets career and his passivity as a player. It just crystalized my feelings about him, it didn't cause those feelings. And, personally, i don't want to have to be reminded of him every god damn time i look at the outfield wall.

But hey, i guess that's just me.

[Ceetar]

Carlos Beltran is 3rd in (batting) WAR by Baseball-Reference. 4th in Fangraphs (Jose jumps him) Sure, you could make the case that he wasn't a much more successful Met than Jose or Fonzie, but the Hall of Fame thing takes that to another level imo. You're not retiring his number just because he's a Mets legend, but because he's a baseball legend. Alfonzo is not. Reyes, well, is active. so is Wright.

Strawberry (and Gooden) are always straddling that line it seems. You could certainly retire those, but those are mostly past decisions. I think eventually 17 will get retired bolstered by the added value on the broadcast team.

But it's not just that Beltran was the Mets best center fielder, he was probably the best in the game during the last decade.

He's 8th in WAR among center fielders...that's All-Time. (at least half the games there)
Mays, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle, Griffey, DiMaggio, Lofton, Beltran, Snider, Ashburn

Oh, and btw, he's not done yet. He'll probably pass Lofton by the time this season is over. WAR tries to take into account defense and speed, but he's 29 all-time by OPS+ which ain't bad certainly.

Oh, and he's one of the best base stealers ever.

He's one of only 8 guys to hit 300 HR and steal 300 bases.

He's the greatest postseason hitter ever.

I mean, the guy's a legend that played more time with the Mets than any other team and gave them his best years. What exactly does a guy need to do to get his number retired around here?

[Guest d'Kong76]

Ceetar wrote: What exactly does a guy need to do to get his number retired around here?

Not sure we want to know the answer!
Have heard whispers they want you un-retire Gil's number
since he can't get into the HOF.

[seawolf17]

I loved Carlos, and would love to have him back. But I don't know he did enough to retire 15. If that 2006 team had won something? Maybe.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Ceetar wrote: You're not retiring his number just because he's a Mets legend, but because he's a baseball legend.

Oh, that's weak. Why don't we retire Andy Pettitte's number while we're at it? He was good and played baseball.

[batmagadanleadoff]

"Pettitte's got nothin' on me. And I played for the Mets. Retire my number, Jeff!"

[batmagadanleadoff]

"And what's with all this talk about retiring Gary Carter's number?
What the hell did he ever do for the Mets that I didn't do ten
times over? Retire my number, Jeff!"

[Frayed Knot]

Now that this has devolved from a HoF/team discussion into a uni number thing, just let me state for the record (once again) that I'm against retiring just about everyone's number.
Seaver's was a no-brainer and I'm fine with Hodges. After that, get back to me in 2021 when Wright retires.
Every other number gets put back into circulation.

[seawolf17]

I'd retire Koosman before Beltran. (And I wouldn't retire Koos either.)

[Edgy MD]

I'm for retiring that ugly championship trophy with all the flags.