We. Still. Need. Outfielders.

[Edgy MD]

I'm not particularly impressed by Turner's capacity in this regard.

[Ceetar]

Edgy MD wrote: I'm not particularly impressed by Turner's capacity in this regard.

It's better than say..Valdespin.

[Edgy MD]

I think we're far off-topic there. Firstly, to the extent that that's true, big whoop. It's a marginal difference.

Secondly, we're talking outfielders, among which Turner is far less a passable actor.

Thirdly, the person we're talking about getting farmed out is Nieuwenhuis, about whom this is not true. He's been the superior hitter against righties and will for the rest of life be the superior outfielder.

Fourthly and finally, the shortness of the bench as a whole is under discussion. Better than Turner or Valdespin (if Valdespin must be brought into the discussion) is Turner and Valdespin.

[Ceetar]

well yeah, I think I've made clear I don't think Kirk should've been sent down. But not for 'depth of bench' reasons. Can't bring him back for another 7-8 days without an injury right? so who, if we're looking to expand the bench with a lefty, do you go to? you're going to be adding Duda after not too much longer too, so that's another lefty in the mix overall.

[nymr83]

Thats another part of the OF discussion... who sits when Duda gets back? does Duda not play nearly full-time?

[Ceetar]

Nymr83 wrote: Thats another part of the OF discussion... who sits when Duda gets back? does Duda not play nearly full-time?

Well, let's see who, if anyone, gets traded. Young probably with Eric subbing in for Byrd occasionally.

[Frayed Knot]

Nymr83 wrote: Thats another part of the OF discussion... who sits when Duda gets back? does Duda not play nearly full-time?

Yeah, but not necessarily in the OF

[Zvon]

Frayed Knot wrote: Nymr83 wrote: Thats another part of the OF discussion... who sits when Duda gets back? does Duda not play nearly full-time? Yeah, but not necessarily in the OF

I do not want to see Duda in the outfield even if they trade both Young and Byrd. I would have to stop watching. For my health.

[smg58]

I could see a semi-platoon between Duda and Lagares, where the decision on who plays depends as much on whether our pitcher gives up more grounders than fly balls as on whether their pitcher is righty or lefty. I'd be reluctant to bench Young; he's not Reyes by a longshot, but he looks like Reyes compared to anybody else the Mets have led off with the last two years.

[bmfc1]

Sandy disagrees with the title to this thread. He said this today:

We've taken what seemed to be a fairly barren outfield at the beginning of the season and turned it over the last month into maybe the most productive outfield in baseball.

[metirish]

Really?, wow, Byrd is the only one that can hit home runs.... Not much power out there.

[stevejrogers]

bmfc1 wrote: Sandy disagrees with the title to this thread. He said this today: We've taken what seemed to be a fairly barren outfield at the beginning of the season and turned it over the last month into maybe the most productive outfield in baseball.

Sounds like Sandy wants to have a set on the next lineup you have a gig for!

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

It's not Rice-Lynn-Evans but it ain't a bad outfield.

Young does his thing on the bases and at leadoff, Lagares can really pick it and is OPS+ing at 102 as a rookie, and Byrd is one of the most productive hitters in the league. They all catch the ball.

[metirish]

After reading what he says I'd not be surprised if Byrd was back next season. I like what Young has done and Lagares has good tools.

[Zvon]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It's not Rice-Lynn-Evans but it ain't a bad outfield. Young does his thing on the bases and at leadoff, Lagares can really pick it and is OPS+ing at 102 as a rookie, and Byrd is one of the most productive hitters in the league. They all catch the ball.

Byrds fielding in right has been much better than I expected. With the glove as well as the arm. I consider him above average out there this season.

smg58: are you saying Duda plays center in that semi-platoon? Or does Young go to center there and Duds in left?

Don't make me even imagine Duda playing center.

[bmfc1]

SteveJRogers wrote: Sandy disagrees with the title to this thread. He said this today: We've taken what seemed to be a fairly barren outfield at the beginning of the season and turned it over the last month into maybe the most productive outfield in baseball. Sounds like Sandy wants to have a set on the next lineup you have a gig for!

Steve, he can open for me.

[Ceetar]

Sure it is Sandy, sure it is. For the last month, sure. Lot more on the road to a World Series than July 2013.

[MFS62]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It's not Rice-Lynn-Evans but it ain't a bad outfield. Young does his thing on the bases and at leadoff, Lagares can really pick it and is OPS+ing at 102 as a rookie, and Byrd is one of the most productive hitters in the league. They all catch the ball.

I was ready to ask Sandy to pee into a bottle, but JCL has a point. I would prefer a little more power, but it is a pretty good defensive outfield.
Later

[metsmarathon]

young/lagares/byrd/duda is a hell of a lot better than whatever the hell it was that bobby vee was rolling out every day in '99 and '00. for whatever much comparative value that is worth.

[Edgy MD]

I think we can romanticize the Vee era a bit. His outfield included some spare parts, but so does this 'un. Old Ricky Henderson and Young Roger Cedeno and Finally Healthy Jay Payton were real players. Darryl Hamilton, when not hobbled, had skillz any team would want.

[Vic Sage]

don't forget Benny the Jet Abayani, who was a gosh darn good hitter, and brian McRae, too, had 1 or 2 good years for us in that period. In fact, i'd venture a guess that the aggregate OPS of the 99-00 Mets outfielders (Henderson-Cedeno-Agbyani-Payton-McRae-Bell) was superior to that of our current aggregation of castoffs, has-beens, and kids.

[metsmarathon]

well, of course the 99-00 outfield had higher OPSes. that was a vastly different run environment.

juan lagares has an OPS+ of 100 this year. in 2000, jay payton had an OPS+ of 98.
juan lagares has an OPS of 0.712 this year. in 2000, jay payton had an OPS of 0.778.

but if we use OPS+ as the measuring stick, then we see that the 2013 outfield isn't all that bad, relatively speaking.

the 2013 outifled of duda / lagares / byrd / young has OPS+es of 123 / 100 / 134 / 106 (valdespin 56 retch!)
the 2000 outfield of agbayani / payton / bell / hamilton had OPS+es of 122 / 98 / 98 / 86 (nunnally 81 trammel 91 perez 104)
the 1999 outfield of henderson / mcrae / cedeno / agbayani had OPS+es of 128 / 72 / 107 / 125 (hamilton 130)

looking at the top 4 outfielders from each team, we compare favorably. in fact, the average OPS+ from our current top four is higher than 99 or 2000. only in adding in jordanny valdespin's poison pill do we start to fall behind '99. still ahead of 2000 though.

i'm not about to claim that our outfield is great shakes. and certainly this offers no estimation of the defensive value put forth by this group, but it ain't all bad, especially if you limit your focus to the current group that's playing nearly every day out there.

improbable as it may seem.

[nymr83]

Vic Sage wrote: don't forget Benny the Jet Abayani, who was a gosh darn good hitter, and brian McRae, too, had 1 or 2 good years for us in that period. In fact, i'd venture a guess that the aggregate OPS of the 99-00 Mets outfielders (Henderson-Cedeno-Agbyani-Payton-McRae-Bell) was superior to that of our current aggregation of castoffs, has-beens, and kids.

1999 Mets OPS+ in the outfield - Henderson 128, Cedeno 107, McCrae 72 also Agbayani 125, Hamilton 130, Bonilla 49, Dunston 100, Allensworth 74
2000 Mets OPS+ in the outfield - Agbayani 122, Payton 98, Bell 98 also Henderson 64, Hamilton 86, Nunnally 81, Trammell 81

There are also going to be guys like Joe McEwing and Lenny Harris that may have had some outfield starts contributing to the overall numbers but i tried to only list individuals that i remember as normally being outfielders when they played.

2013 Mets OPS+ in the outfield - Duda 123, Lagares 100, Byrd 134 also Young 106, Niewenhuis 74, Valdespin 59, Baxter 77, Ankiel 68, Brown 89

We are pretty clearly doing better than 2000 and probably right around where 1999 was

[Ceetar]

We're also kind of measuring at a high point now though. Especially for Byrd and Lagares. Maybe they keep it up, which would certainly be nice, but a lot of it's bolstered on recent events.

[Vic Sage]

This shows me (and thanks for doing the legwork) that the current OF is somewhere in close range of the 99-00 teams; slightly better than 2000 and slightly worse (or even) to 1999, depending on which numbers you use and how many OFers on each time you include. But i'll concede is probably slightly better overall, which, to put it in perspective, suggests that this OF is at least comparable to the OF that was considered the reason why those 99-00 playoff teams never make it over the hump, and is an OF generally criticized as being the anchor that dragged those good teams down. I hardly think the comparison to that OF is a ringing endorsement for this crew such that they are worthy of huzzahs from Sandy.

Is this OF better than i thought they'd be? Sure, i didn't guess Byrd could have a career year at 35 (with a SLG 100 pts higher than his career numbers), or that we'd pick up EYoung mid-season for relatively cheap, or that Legares was ready to make a jump from AA. But even with all those nice surprises, they have not distinguished themselves as exceptional, but merely adequate, particularly when you consider all the unsuccessful ABs given to Valdy, Nieuenheis, Baxter, Ankiel, and Cowgill, not to mention Duda's adventures in LF.

Most productive OF in baseball, Sandy? Just you keep selling that snake oil, fella.

[metsmarathon]

well, maybe he means productive relative to what it's getting paid...?

uh.. yeah.. i got nothing.

[Edgy MD]

Timeframe means everything.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Vic Sage wrote: This shows me (and thanks for doing the legwork) that the current OF is somewhere in close range of the 99-00 teams; slightly better than 2000 and slightly worse (or even) to 1999, depending on which numbers you use and how many OFers on each time you include. But i'll concede is probably slightly better overall, which, to put it in perspective, suggests that this OF is at least comparable to the OF that was considered the reason why those 99-00 playoff teams never make it over the hump, and is an OF generally criticized as being the anchor that dragged those good teams down. I hardly think the comparison to that OF is a ringing endorsement for this crew such that they are worthy of huzzahs from Sandy.

I agree. I'm still scratching my head over the accolades suddenly being sent the way of this outfield. I'm supposed to be thrilled because what? --they field better than Duda? You could carry this outfield if these Mets had a catcher that hit like Mike Piazza, a first baseman that hit like John Olerud and a second baseman that hit like Edgardo Alfonzo. But we ain't got anything close to that and these Mets ain't going anywhere this season. So the issue that really matters is how this outfield is likely to do going forward. I'm not sold on Lagares: are you? And as for Byrd, kudos to him but I wouldn't bet anything on a 2014 repeat of what Byrd's done so far as a Met. Nor would I expect it. If the Mets think they're set at outfield, then they're gonna need for the pitching staff to morph into Seaver, Koosman and Matlack, with a Stone-like career year from their 4th starter to contend in 2014.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Guest

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

He clearly said (and meant) over the last month.

[batmagadanleadoff]

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: He clearly said (and meant) over the last month.

OK. So then what's the point? That the Mets had a good July?