Division Foes 2012: The Marlins

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

The controversy's gonna be there whether they punish him or not.

This is like when Aflac fired Gilbert Gottfried when they were shocked -- shocked! -- to discover he also told tasteless jokes.

[Fman99]

The whole thing is terrific. All they need now is Anna Benson.

[Benjamin Grimm]

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

He should have said RAMON Castro, who went from the Mets to Ozzie's White Sox. People were always trying to get Ramon Castro, too.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

I'm glad that baseball - our National Pastime - stands up for American values like being able to speak your mind without fear of punishment for your views unlike evil totalitarian Cuba where such freedoms are suppressed.

[metsmarathon]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: I'm glad that baseball - our National Pastime - stands up for American values like being able to speak your mind without fear of punishment for your views unlike evil totalitarian Cuba where such freedoms are suppressed.

he's not being punished by the state or the government, rather he is being punished by his employer for making a public statement which embarrassed his employer and enraged & alienated his customer. his statements will hurt his employer, and for that he is being punished.

he made a political(ish) statement that many found offensive. now, i don't think the punishment for offensiveness should be unemployment, but that's where we are right now i suppose. eventually, somebody's going to have to file a civil rights suit against a group of offendees to get the cycle to stop, i suppose, but i'm no law guy.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

I knew someone was going to bring up the "not being punished by the state or the government" angle, but that's not the point I'm trying to make. Castro is a tyrant because he denies human rights and freedoms to the people of Cuba. These rights are valued in the USA, protected by our governments, and generally respected by other organizations in our country. Certainly the Marlins are in their legal rights (but not moral rights) to punish an employee for making them look bad, but I think by punishing Guillen with a suspension and humiliating him with multiple press conferences they are being hypocritical in regards to reason why they think Castro's a bad person in the first place. If anyone on the Marlins (or the media or the fans or anyone else) wants to say that Guillen's comments are stupid and they disagree, that's fine by me. If the Marlins' organization wants to make a public statement saying that Guillen's views don't represent the organization, that works too. And if they want to call Guillen in for a private discussion on how he should represent the team, that also is very sensible. But punishing and publicly humiliating Guillen for voicing unpopular political beliefs ultimately reflects poorly on the Marlins.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Guest

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

I understand where the Marlins are coming from. They just spent a gazallion dollars trying to market their club to a fan base that has been reluctant to embrace them (with good reason) and a new stadium built right in Little Havana. Yes, they brought Ozzie in because of the attention he brings, but also, I suspect, because they wanted a Latino who might connect with the community they were courting. Winning games as a manager is his job, but there are other responsibilities that go with that job.

It would be along the lines of Prince Fielder saying "American cars suck, and I love my Honda" after signing the deal here.

Ozzie has a responsibility to his employer. He is free to run off and buy his own team and say whatever the heck he wants. But as long as he is taking the Marlins' money, he has a responsibility to not damage the product. And he most certainly did damage that product.

[Ceetar]

precisely. And if he'd said what he said in Chicago (in fact, he did) it wouldn't have become an issue because there's not a large subset of White Sox fans that are Cuban/Latino and would stop spending money because of it.

[Guest themetfairy]

What michigan said!

[Edgy MD]

But apparently no small amount of gay dudes to offend.

[Guest Mets � Willets Point]

So to sum up, freedom of speech is something we value except when it gets in the way of making lots of money. Good to know where you all stand.

[TransMonk]

I tend to side with WP. While the Marlins' response is certainly hypocritical to a degree, it was most likely necessary from a PR standpoint. I find the whole thing funny in a "thank God this is not the Mets" type of way.

Overall, their managerial hire blew up in their face. Ozzie is a loudmouth who will generate headlines as much with his mouth as with his managing. The Marlins prolly didn't think his antics would hit so close to home like this quote has, so now they have to play the corporate censor and discipline their bad boy. It's a sticky situation and I'm sure this is the last thing they wanted as an organization trying out a new image/style with the idea of attracting more local fans.

I'm loving every minute of it. Couldn't have happened to a better team at a better time.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I'm with Willets too.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Mets � Willets Point wrote: So to sum up, freedom of speech is something we value except when it gets in the way of making lots of money. Good to know where you all stand.

Nonsense. Again, Ozzie, when he is accountable only to himself, can say whatever he darn well pleases. More power to him. He's not being arrested or fined by a government. But he has a responsibility to an employer that has invested in him.

Here's an example. Clothing can be considered free speech. When I accepted the post as statehouse reporter, I knew that dressing a certain way was considered a part of the job, and that I would reflect the company, especially if I'm going to be appearing on CNN and other places that help form perceptions of the organization.

Now, I could wear my Twisted Sister t-shirt to the Capitol and say, "Hey, free speech!" but it wouldn't be responsible.

We have people who say despicable things in the comments sections of our stories. We remove them. The commenters sometimes cry censorship. And I explain to them that nothing is stopping them from starting their own news website and posting profanity, insults and anything else that we deem unwelcome on our site.

I explain to these people that it's like coming into our living room. If someone comes in my house and starts proclaiming his love of Derek Jeter, Ian O'Connor, Fritz Peterson/Mike Kekich wife swapping and Joba, I can respect his right to say those things, but I sure don't want to listen to it and can ask them to leave.

Just because Ozzie can say those things, doesn't mean he should if it hurts his team.

And I'd have fined him for the gay slur, too.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: I understand where the Marlins are coming from. They just spent a gazallion dollars trying to market their club to a fan base that has been reluctant to embrace them (with good reason) and a new stadium built right in Little Havana. Yes, they brought Ozzie in because of the attention he brings, but also, I suspect, because they wanted a Latino who might connect with the community they were courting. Winning games as a manager is his job, but there are other responsibilities that go with that job. It would be along the lines of Prince Fielder saying "American cars suck, and I love my Honda" after signing the deal here. Ozzie has a responsibility to his employer. He is free to run off and buy his own team and say whatever the heck he wants. But as long as he is taking the Marlins' money, he has a responsibility to not damage the product. And he most certainly did damage that product.

This. About 2/3 of his job is to serve as a PR figurehead; publicly saying stupid things-- things, BTW, that he doesn't stand behind; we're not talking about a principled stand here-- directly impacts his ability to do that job. This is not a freedom-of-speech issue. This is a stupidity-has-its-costs issue.

[Which isn't to come down on the side of Castro-must-go, sons-of-Batista's-upper-class Cubans... I've got a skeleton to pick with those guys.]

[Piggiestomatoes]

I also understand the Marlins' position and agree that the punishment being meted is for damaging the product. You can tell that it was a PR move by the punishment -- more so the public act of contrition than the five game suspension -- which is effectively bullshit. If they were really upset, they'd have canned him and I think that would have been more defensible.

The real bullshit was Ozzie's weak-ass excuse of thinking in Spanish and speaking in English crap. He has, does, and always will speak his mind and occasionally that has consequences -- even for Ozzie.

More troubling to me was his "explanation" of how each evening of the season goes. After each game, he gets drunk in the hotel bar and passes out/falls asleep. Wake up the next day and do it all again.

To Ceetar's point, if Ozzie was managing the Twins, Mariners or most other teams, the comment wouldn't have resulted in the same fuss.

[Guest themetfairy]

It's akin to Marge Schott's admiration of Hitler - a simply stupid thing to have said.

[G-Fafif]

Ozzie Guillen was hired to be good for business. He looms as the diametric opposite.

It's funny because it's happening to the Marlins.

[Ceetar]

G-Fafif wrote: Ozzie Guillen was hired to be good for business. He looms as the diametric opposite. It's funny because it's happening to the Marlins.

Stop laughing about it for the sake of Wright's finger.

[metsmarathon]

i must confess that i'm partly with willets here in that i really hate that the second someone says something that is collectively disliked, the collective starts calling for him to be fired.

fire don imus! fire rush limbaugh! fire ozzie guillen!

society falls all over itself trying to punish, to force those opinions with which it most vehemently disagrees to be repressed and bottled up like poison, when it should go out of its way to convince, to illuminate, to free from misapprehension those who have been misapprehended.

i don't know what the marlins are doing, but it would be more effective to have guillen being putting in time in an outreach capacity - working with those who have been most and greatest affected - so that he can see why he should not admire castro. and that while castro may show exceptional resillience, that quality of resillience is even more admirably demonstrated by the people whose lives he has so greatly and negatively affected - those who flee on boats to find freedom, and those who remain to one day reclaim their great island nation.

of course, our last manager went on and on about gangsta blah blah blah. we should have been more outraged and embarrassed about that. what is so noble about criminals, particulalry those who prey on the weak and the powerless?

you know what i like about abusive drunks? they're men of action, not just words. you know what i like about drunk drivers? even when they're not at their best, they still give it a go.

what the fuck ever happened to real heroes?

i think i've strayed here...

[Ceetar]

just a bit. but my mother always says America glorifies gangsters. (The Mob museum in Las Vegas is pretty cool.)

I agree the 'positive impact' punishment is usually the better course of action. This why even if the pissed off people don't buy the forced apology (And why would they?) at least something good comes from it.

[Frayed Knot]

While I agree that the Marlins made their own bed by hiring a guy with a track record of being out-spoken and then being shocked, SHOCKED! when he turns out to be out-spoken, the thing about the Ozzie situation is that what he said is distinctly not the same as some random employee spouting some odd or unpopular opinions in the company cafeteria or on his own time. This was in Time magazine, and the reason Time magazine was even talking to him in the first place is because a big league manager is in many ways the public face of a franchise and that Ozzie in particular was brought aboard for that reason and specifically for the franchise which is trying to remake itself by attracting a following in south Florida.

[G-Fafif]

Limbaugh is paid to be virulently opinionated to say nothing of offensive (he's only been bellowing about "feminazis" for 24 years). Imus was paid to be irreverent, albeit with a gloss of down-home intellectual curiosity. Their employers could have given two figs what they said as long as the balance sheet worked in their favor. When "sluts" and "nappy-headed ho's" proved potentially unprofitable, the balance tipped the other way. Those are commercial enterprises, and and their cases, in a way, exemplify the free market. People get up in arms over their "outrageousness," advertisers pull out. Advertisers pull out, all that opinion and irreverence suddenly ain't worth standing behind...even though their employers knew damn well what they had nurtured.

Guillen's brand equity is loose cannon. That's what the Marlins hired. They didn't count on him turning around and firing in their own faces is all. Marlins ownership is a worm, but I can't blame them for trying to wriggle off the hook Ozzie (and they, by hiring him) created. If Guillen was speaking from some (bizarre) conviction that Castro was good for Cuba, and stuck to it, I'd sort of respect the taking of a stand. But he was just being wacky because that's what Ozzie Guillen does.

Thank goodness MLB condemned him, because they would never associate with something as wretched as an arm of Castro's government, lest they be seen as having legitimized his freedom-squelching regime.

No, not them.

[Guest themetfairy]

I'm not a fan of the Marlins, but even I have to acknowledge that their schedule for the start of the season is majorly fucked up.

First they have a home game - an ESPN night game to show off their new stadium. Not a big deal, but for the fact that they had to fly to Cincinnati right after the game for a day game in Cincinnati the next day. Seriously?

And now they have a night game in Philadelphia before flying home to Miami for their first normal homestand of the season. The Astros are probably sitting in a sports bar in Miami right now, watching the game on TV and resting up before the weekend series.

Does any of this make sense?

[Ceetar]

I was under the impression the Marlins wanted that first home home to show off the stadium. And that's what started the mess. It's not a getaway day for the Phillies, they host the Amazin's tomorrow, so the late start tonight is probably because of that.

[Edgy MD]

I appreciate the hole they dug for themselves early, but these Marlins are now on a seven-game win streak, sitting just a game behind the Mets. It's good we've won three in a row, because it's not only helping us close the gap on second place, but helped us stave off fourth as well.

What's impressive about the hot streak is that they've done it where the Mets never do --- on a west coast swing. They've swept the Giants and the Padres and taken their first game against Houston, all on the road.

[Vic Sage]

maybe the fish HR sculpture has them freaked out.

[Edgy MD]

Do they bring a portable one on West Coast road trips?

[Vic Sage]

no, the Fish left it in Miami, which is why they're winning on the coast, out from under its freaky shadow.