After "Madoff's Curveball"

[Ceetar]

Wilpon basically hedges his bets there and says it's up to Alderson. I don't take him throwing numbers like 100million out there any more seriously than I take his evaluation of players seriously. which is, not at all. He implies if Alderson says $125 they'll do it.

anyway, Reyes. Here's a post that address the speed thing: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2011/5/20/2132075/the-three-fallacies-of-jose-reyes

[metirish]

Well if Rob Castellano says it's so then that's it I guess.

[Ceetar]

metirish wrote: Well if Rob Castellano says it's so then that's it I guess.

It's not perfect, but his arguments do make sense.

The simplest one is of course: Reyes is not Luis Castillo.

[TransMonk]

Ceetar...if you were on Family Feud, and Richard Dawson/Louie Anderson/Al from Tool Time came to you and said, "OK Ceetar, we surveyed 100 people, top five answers are on the board, name an asset of Jose Reyes."

What would your answer be?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Doubles and triples count as power.

I'm reluctant to get too far ahead and declare there's "no way" something is going to happen. I don't even know who is going to be owning the team in a month.

[Ceetar]

TransMonk wrote: Ceetar...if you were on Family Feud, and Richard Dawson/Louie Anderson/Al from Tool Time came to you and said, "OK Ceetar, we surveyed 100 people, top five answers are on the board, name an asset of Jose Reyes." What would your answer be?

popular opinion is hardly proof. often quite the opposite. speed is definitely one of his assets, but it's a complimentary one.

As Edgy said, 2b/3b count as power. Have we seen a ton of doubles taht would've been singles if he were a couple of steps slower? Not many that I can recall. He's 6th in XBH.

[TransMonk]

Popular opinion corresponds to ticket sales which corresponds to revenue for ballclub...which is how this whole back and forth got started.

I agree that Reyes has multiple skills. But, I will deny that his speed is only* complimentary to any of his other skills. Reyes is not legging out more XBH because he is a power hitter who was blessed with speed.

*- on edit

[Ceetar]

TransMonk wrote: Popular opinion corresponds to ticket sales which corresponds to revenue for ballclub...which is how this whole back and forth got started. I agree that Reyes has multiple skills. But, I will deny that his speed is only* complimentary to any of his other skills. Reyes is not legging out more XBH because he is a power hitter who was blessed with speed. *- on edit

well yes, but the #1 reason ticket sales go up is winning, and likely Reyes provides that more so than whatever you'd be able to spend that ~$18 million on + Tejada/SS replacement. Even in 2017 although that's obviously a completely random question as the top SS in the game in 2017 may not even have been drafted yet.

Still, It seems to be that if the Mets are trying to win, theyneed Reyes. if they're merely trying to be entertaining and competitive with a reasonable budget, well..

[Vic Sage]

Wright isn't a superstar. He isn't. Sorry, it's true. Fred's dead right on that one. David's a really good player and I like him and want to keep him but not a superstar. Not yet anyway.

If you track Wright's production and progress as a player at Shea, he was most certainly a "superstar", in my view. He was in the top 10 in MVP balloting each of those seasons... all-star, gold glove, silver slugger, never less than a .912 OPS... he was our "5-category' demi-god poster child. Then he plays at CitiField and his career goes into the crapper; his 2nd year was a little better, but not great, and this year is more of the same. At Shea, his Ks were consistent (between 113-118), and then at ShitiField he starts striking out at a prodigious rate, even as his HR rate went down. Now, you can say its unrelated to the stadium, but he was 26 when his career went sideways, without any particular injury to cause it. Clearly he has changed his approach to make up for his home field disadvantage and its screwed him up.

So sorry Fred, but if Dave's not a "superstar", its cuz you built your team a stadium specifically designed to fuck him up royally.
Well done, sir. [golf clap]

[batmagadanleadoff]

Vic Sage wrote: Wright isn't a superstar. He isn't. Sorry, it's true. Fred's dead right on that one. David's a really good player and I like him and want to keep him but not a superstar. Not yet anyway. If you track Wright's production and progress as a player at Shea, he was most certainly a "superstar", in my view. He was in the top 10 in MVP balloting each of those seasons... all-star, gold glove, silver slugger, never less than a .912 OPS... he was our "5-category' demi-god poster child. Then he plays at CitiField and his career goes into the crapper; his 2nd year was a little better, but not great, and this year is more of the same. At Shea, his Ks were consistent (between 113-118), and then at ShitiField he starts striking out at a prodigious rate, even as his HR rate went down. Now, you can say its unrelated to the stadium, but he was 26 when his career went sideways, without any particular injury to cause it. Clearly he has changed his approach to make up for his home field disadvantage and its screwed him up. So sorry Fred, but if Dave's not a "superstar", its cuz you built your team a stadium specifically designed to fuck him up royally. Well done, sir. [golf clap]

I heartily endorse this post. Of course Wright was a superstar from 06-08. He was the first player you'd want to build your team around, and the deserving NL MVP of 2007, according to many, myself included, and most other posters here. How can that not add up to superstar? How can somebody be the MVP and not be a superstar?

Nice fucking stadium, Jeff.

[ashie62]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Vic Sage wrote: Wright isn't a superstar. He isn't. Sorry, it's true. Fred's dead right on that one. David's a really good player and I like him and want to keep him but not a superstar. Not yet anyway. If you track Wright's production and progress as a player at Shea, he was most certainly a "superstar", in my view. He was in the top 10 in MVP balloting each of those seasons... all-star, gold glove, silver slugger, never less than a .912 OPS... he was our "5-category' demi-god poster child. Then he plays at CitiField and his career goes into the crapper; his 2nd year was a little better, but not great, and this year is more of the same. At Shea, his Ks were consistent (between 113-118), and then at ShitiField he starts striking out at a prodigious rate, even as his HR rate went down. Now, you can say its unrelated to the stadium, but he was 26 when his career went sideways, without any particular injury to cause it. Clearly he has changed his approach to make up for his home field disadvantage and its screwed him up. So sorry Fred, but if Dave's not a "superstar", its cuz you built your team a stadium specifically designed to fuck him up royally. Well done, sir. [golf clap] I heartily endorse this post. Of course Wright was a superstar from 06-08. He was the first player you'd want to build your team around, and the deserving NL MVP of 2007, according to many, myself included, and most other posters here. How can that not add up to superstar? How can somebody be the MVP and not be a superstar? Nice fucking stadium, Jeff.

That^

[Centerfield]

I just finished the SI article. There is no doubt in my mind that this asshole has no intention of re-signing Reyes.

I'm embarrassed to be a fan of this organization. I have never before endorsed a sale of this team, but I will be actively rooting for that from now on.

I'm now a fan of Picard. Let's start a Picard suit thread. Pinstripes? Greys? I hear a lot of people aren't fans of the black suits.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Vic Sage wrote: If you track Wright's production and progress as a player at Shea, he was most certainly a "superstar", in my view. He was in the top 10 in MVP balloting each of those seasons... all-star, gold glove, silver slugger, never less than a .912 OPS... he was our "5-category' demi-god poster child. Then he plays at CitiField and his career goes into the crapper; his 2nd year was a little better, but not great, and this year is more of the same. At Shea, his Ks were consistent (between 113-118), and then at ShitiField he starts striking out at a prodigious rate, even as his HR rate went down. Now, you can say its unrelated to the stadium, but he was 26 when his career went sideways, without any particular injury to cause it. Clearly he has changed his approach to make up for his home field disadvantage and its screwed him up. So sorry Fred, but if Dave's not a "superstar", its cuz you built your team a stadium specifically designed to fuck him up royally. Well done, sir. [golf clap]

Bravo! I salute you sir.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I've thought for a while that Chapter 11 would be a good and maybe even a likely way for this to end, but I don't see those words getting thrown around much, presumably because the Pons could just sell their way out before it came to that.

Fred's really a pathetic guy in so many ways. He can't even sell the Mets to Mets fans.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yeah, that's killer. He's been broken. He's lost his dough, he's lost his faith, he's losing his team. He likes being the owner but doesn't like them.

He's besieged by creditors and has come to see his high-profile players as just a few more collectors putting the squeeze on him.

[Met Hunter]

This is exactly how I felt when I first read the New Yorker piece. Wilpon seemed like a man looking over his shoulder and his candidness in front of a reporter really surprised me. My first thought was shit he's not pursuing Reyes. It seemed like he tipped his hand in any possible negotiations. Sad days ahead for true Met fans. I've been looking for a light for a long time that may never come. I've really come to loathe everything about the Mets except the name.

[Guest Edgy DC]

He loves Ike and Beato. They're good players but not the ones putting him in a position of overextending himself.

On the run like Dykstra, a man gets a little crazy. Any man would, I guess. Of course, a crazy man like Dykstra will go absolute apeshit bonkers.

It would be fascinating, if I didn't have something at stake myself.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Jim Bowden, former Reds GM under Marge Schott, on the Fred Wilpon New Yorker fallout (and LWFS -- What's Fred's score these days on the Schottsie scale?):

Wilpon Preparing for Mets' Fire Sale
by Jim Bowden

Fred Wilpon is well respected as a gentleman and professional, so most were surprised when the New York Mets' owner's comments were released Monday morning in The New Yorker magazine, ripping star players Jose Reyes, David Wright and Carlos Beltran. In an e-mail to the media, Wright excused Wilpon: �Fred is a good man and is obviously going through some difficult times.� Wright was referring to Wilpon's professional, financial and legal issues, including a countersuit against a trustee to recover funds from the Bernard Madoff�s Ponzi scheme and the Mets needing a loan from Major League Baseball to meet obligations. As a former GM, the first reaction is damage control. I had this happen to me on multiple occasions in my career, especially during the Marge Schott era of the mid-'90s. Quick communication with the players helped put the issue to bed, and most players considered the source. However, this case is different. This isn�t the Bronx or the Yankees. It�s not George Steinbrenner or Marge Schott. It�s Fred Wilpon, and it wasn't his normal behavior. But while Wright came to Wilpon's defense, I�m not buying it. Here's what Wilpon was saying through his New Yorker interview: If the major league payroll is no longer affordable and needs to be reduced, then trades must be made. Instead of shocking the fans in July, prepare them now. And here's what Wilson said about his star players: On Reyes: �He thinks he�s going to get Carl Crawford money. He�s had everything wrong with him. He won�t get it.� My response: Jayson Werth got it. Adrian Beltre got it. Jose Reyes will be getting his share, too. Reyes is 27 years old, his injuries are in the rearview mirror, and he is one of the top shortstops in baseball with a chance to develop into a premier lead-off hitter. On Wright: �He is a really good kid and a very good player, but not a superstar.� My opinion: David is a really good kid, a very good player and is developing into a superstar. The huge outfield dimensions at Citi Field have changed his approach and swing. He may not be Albert Pujols, but put him in Great American Ball Park or Citizens Bank Park and he�ll be a 40-homer, 120-RBI superstar in time. He ranks among the top five third basemen in baseball. On Beltran: �Carlos is 65�70 percent of the player that he was when he signed the seven-year, $119 million contract in 2005.� My opinion: Mr. Wilpon, he�s been hurt. He�s at 75-80, not 65-70 percent, but only because of injuries, not because of a loss of skills, heart, talent or ability. Eat salary, try to trade him and get younger. We all get it. However, you have to recognize that his decline has mostly to do with health reasons. Whether Wilpon made these comments to deflect his own personal problems, or whether he made them to prepare the fan base for the upcoming fire sale, it really doesn�t matter. The damage has been done. The public relations blunders has been made. Now Mr. Wilpon, stop talking, go upstairs and let team president Sandy Alderson and manager Terry Collins do the rest of the talking. Let them handle the damage control, and let them rebuild the relationships with the players. Then let the trade talks begin, and let�s all look forward to the July wheeling and dealing as the Mets reduce payroll and get younger. Thanks for reading, as always. I appreciate your comments and feedback. You can follow me on Twitter: @JimBowdenESPNxm.

http://espn.go.com/blog/the-gms-office/post/_/id/123/wilpon-preparing-for-mets-fire-sale

[duan]

The shitstorm that has befallen the Mets this week won't end with Fred's New Yorker comments. Sports Illustrated's next issue will include a feature on the Mets in which Wilpon remarks that the Mets are "bleeding money" and are poised to lose another $70M this season. Report: Mets 'bleeding cash' New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon said the team is "bleeding cash" and could lose $70 million this season in an interview with Sports Illustrated that was obtained before release by the New York Daily News. Wilpon also said that he fears he could lose the Mets if the trustee for victims of Bernard Madoff's Ponzi scheme wins a $1 billion lawsuit against the team and the owner's other interests. Wilpon said he is willing to settle based on the $295 million in fictitious profits he earned, but will not settle based on $700 million in principle he and partners invested with Madoff.

Is SNY bleeding cash? Until someone unwinds the contracts and assesses where they stand in relation to their value proposition I will not believe that the mets are par se losing money.

[soupcan]

Centerfield wrote: I just finished the SI article. There is no doubt in my mind that this asshole has no intention of re-signing Reyes. I'm embarrassed to be a fan of this organization. I have never before endorsed a sale of this team, but I will be actively rooting for that from now on. I'm now a fan of Picard. Let's start a Picard suit thread. Pinstripes? Greys? I hear a lot of people aren't fans of the black suits.

I've been rooting for Picard from the beginning. Welcome to the Dark Side Luke.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Go @Team_Picard

[Guest Edgy DC]

Trust the process. Take it one pubic relations nightmare at a time.

Mets' GM Sandy Alderson: Don't overreact to reports of 30% payroll cut 12:06 AM By Mike Dodd, USA TODAY UPDATE 12:06 AM ET: New York Mets' general manager Sandy Alderson met with reporters after the team's ugly 11-1 loss to the Cubs in Chicago and cautioned against overreacting to owner Fred Wilpon's suggestion in a Sports Illustrated article that the team's payroll could be cut 30% to about $100 million next year. "Are we talking about The New Yorker article?" Alderson asked, referring to the story containing Wilpon's harsh criticism of three key Mets players. "Look, I haven't read Sports Illustrated. I haven't read Mechanics Illustrated, Men's Health. I don't know what stories may be out there. So until I've read those stories, I can't comment. � "I wouldn't overreact to what might be contained in that article. Let's focus on getting past The New Yorker article." As for that first story, in which David Wright, Carlos Beltran and Jose Reyes were criticized by the owner, Alderson said, "Everyone was surprised by the comments. But there's nobody who is more passionate about the Mets, has more empathy for the players than Fred. We all get caught up in the emotion from time to time and perhaps say some things that, on reflection, probably were not well chosen. But I know he's reached out to the players involved. � It's time for us to move on." The Mets played one of their poorer games in weeks in the blustery, 45-degree Chicago weather Tuesday night, but manager Terry Collins said he didn't believe the controversy was a factor. "We just chalk it up as a game we didn't play very good," Collins said. "We have not played like this in a long time. Maybe it's out of our system now." On the medical front, Alderson said third baseman David Wright met in Los Angeles with a back specialist and physical therapist and there was nothing "that changed anything in terms of his diagnosis or expectations about him coming back." He said there is no timetable yet for Wright's return but doctors say the lower back stress fracture is "on its way to healing �. He'll be back in relatively short order." EARLIER: The New York Mets regrouped in Chicago Tuesday, trying to deal diplomatically with the fallout from owner Fred Wilpon's negative comments about three of the team's best players. Manager Terry Collins called a team meeting in the Wrigley Field clubhouse to address the latest storm and said Wilpon spoke to outfielder Carlos Beltran and shortstop Jose Reyes in a conference call Tuesday. Third baseman David Wright was still in Los Angeles, where he sought a second opinion on his lower back stress fracture. "Obviously, it was there. So you just say, 'Hey we've got to just stick together and take the high road and keep going,' " said outfielder Jason Bay, of the meeting. "That's why we got together � to try to make sure everyone was on the same page and not letting that take over." Collins said Wilpon "talked with Carlos and Jose and everybody's on the same page." Asked how Wilpon explained his comments, Collins said "he didn't get into that, according to the players. He just said, 'Sorry it happened, sorry it got out.' " Beltran and Reyes, targets of Wilpon's comments in The New Yorker article that was released Monday, worked hard not to fan the fires. "He's the boss. He can say whatever he wants to," said Reyes, with a smile, before the Mets' opener of a three-game series against the Cubs in Wrigley Field. "I can't worry about what he said." Said Beltran, whom Wilpon said is 65-70% of the player the Mets got when they signed him to a seven-year deal in 2005: "Right now, what is important is that I'm healthy�.. I don't feel 70 or 65, I feel 100%." "Basically a surprise, not only to me, but to everyone," Beltran said, of the reaction to the comments. "In the years I have been with this organization, I have given everything I have. ... Unfortunately, the years that you're hurt you can't produce the way I know I can produce when I'm healthy." "I'm not going to let this affect me," he added. "I'm just going to continue to play hard for this team until my last days here." Both Reyes and Beltran are in the final year of their contracts, prompting speculation they could he dealt at the trading deadline if the Mets aren't in the playoff race. "If we don't start playing good baseball, or start winning ballgames, something might happen. Honestly, I'm not worried about that," Beltran said. Wilpon said in the article that Reyes "thinks he's going to get Carl Crawford money" (seven years, $142 million) as a free agent next winter, but "he's had everything wrong with him." Reyes declined to speculate about his future, mid-summer or next offseason. "Right now, I can't put too many thoughts in my head. I don't know what's going to happen in the future," he said. Wright, who the owner called a "good kid � not a superstar," is on the disabled list and will not be in Chicago for the series. He released a statement Monday calling Wilpon "a good man" who is "obviously going through some difficult times." Wilpon is being sued for $1 billion by a trustee seeking to recover funds for victims of Bernard Madoff's Ponzi scheme. Wilpon invested with Madoff and has said he is a victim. Beltran and Reyes are both having solid, healthy years for the Mets, 22-24 entering Tuesday night's game. Beltran has played in 44 games and is hitting .280, with 8 homers and 25 RBI. Reyes is hitting .310 with 17 stolen bases in 46 games.

[Guest themetfairy]

Telling someone not to overreact almost assures that there will be overreaction.

And 30% is not a small number....

[Ceetar]

themetfairy wrote: Telling someone not to overreact almost assures that there will be overreaction. And 30% is not a small number....

doh, my post today was about overreacting. I swear I hadn't read this yet!

Freddy basically said it'd be up to Alderson, which is what we knew anyway, which is why what he says doesn't mean much. Won't stop everyone from overreacting to it despite Alderson already being pretty clear about the budget for next year.

[TransMonk]

Wow.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I don't see where Sandy says that the $100 million figure is untrue (which is what I was hoping to see) just that we shouldn't overreact to it.

All I can say is, if the Wilpons can't afford to run a large-market team like a large-market team, they need to step aside. The sooner the better.

[Ceetar]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't see where Sandy says that the $100 million figure is untrue (which is what I was hoping to see) just that we shouldn't overreact to it. All I can say is, if the Wilpons can't afford to run a large-market team like a large-market team, they need to step aside. The sooner the better.

Let's ask it this way: Are you comfortable or aware the payroll could be at that $100 million level? "No."

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/post/_/id/23907/alderson-on-wrong-said-fred-injuries

[Guest Edgy DC]

I don't think it's true or false. It's just unknown.

Anywings, Santana's on the mound, Wright and Davis are one day more healed, and millyuns and millyuns are coming off the books. That much is known.

[metirish]

Ceetar wrote: themetfairy wrote: Telling someone not to overreact almost assures that there will be overreaction. And 30% is not a small number.... doh, my post today was about overreacting. I swear I hadn't read this yet! Freddy basically said it'd be up to Alderson, which is what we knew anyway, which is why what he says doesn't mean much. Won't stop everyone from overreacting to it despite Alderson already being pretty clear about the budget for next year.

Are you saying that next years payroll "is up to Alderson"?, like if he goes out and signs a bunch of players and the figure is then $150 million that it's OK?


Maybe I am not understanding you Ceetar, which is why I am asking.

[Ceetar]

metirish wrote: Ceetar wrote: doh, my post today was about overreacting. I swear I hadn't read this yet! Freddy basically said it'd be up to Alderson, which is what we knew anyway, which is why what he says doesn't mean much. Won't stop everyone from overreacting to it despite Alderson already being pretty clear about the budget for next year. Are you saying that next years payroll "is up to Alderson"?, like if he goes out and signs a bunch of players and the figure is then $150 million that it's OK? Maybe I am not understanding you Ceetar, which is why I am asking.

I'm sure there's a limit, a budget, an idea. But Alderson has made that clear that A. the payroll will likely be less than this year and B. He'd like to be somewhat below his 'cap' so that he has flexibility.

So yeah, the payroll is going down and barring a playoff run that results in an extra 30million in expected revenue.. that's where it's at, but he's in the past shot down the 90-100 million range and seems to do so again here. He's specifically stated that Reyes would fit if they needed him to. (With the caveat that he didn't know if they could fit much else)

All Fred was saying is that you CAN be competitive with less, and if Sandy's budget for next year is 100, he's not going to force him to spend more or less.