Baseball things you're embarrassed to admit you don't know

[Theoldmole]

What's a vesting option? I know in general it means more money for someone.

[Ceetar]

TheOldMole wrote: What's a vesting option? I know in general it means more money for someone.

That's more a contract thing than a baseball thing. I wouldn't feel bad.

Vesting options are clauses in contracts that 'vest' or 'activate' when the player hits a milestone. It cannot be based on statistics, but apparently games started and games finished and games played are not statistics.

Cora had a vesting option last year for games played. If he was announced into the game at any time, it ticked up that number. If it hit the magic number in the contract, the second year of his contract for 2011 became guarenteed, esentially making his contract a 2 year one.

The same for Frankie this year. If he finishes (I think it was 110 over two years?) 55 games this year, and is declared healthy, his option year for next year becomes guarenteed. Even if it doesn't, the Mets need to pay him 3.5 million to not activate the option, meaning unless they trade him or work out an extension in lieu of the option year, he's owed at least 3.5 million even if they let him walk away.




As for me, I'm really bad at pitch identification. I try to pay more attention to be able to tell a curveball or fastball in flight. (and obviously the curve is easier, but identifying it from a slider? or a changeup from a fastball)

[Benjamin Grimm]

I can tell a fastball from a breaking ball, but that's about it. Like Ceetar, I can't tell a slider from a changeup. I used to try harder at this stuff; when I'd watch I'd try to think along with the pitcher and catcher regarding pitch selection and location, but I gave that up long ago. I now watch a lot more passively.

[Guest attgig]

I'm with you on figuring out which pitch is which.

I also suck at really understanding the balk rule. the only two scenarios are if the pitcher doesn't come to a complete stop before pitching, and the 45 degree step towards first base. are there other rules? i know there are other rules, but that's all i know...

[Ceetar]

attgig wrote: I'm with you on figuring out which pitch is which. I also suck at really understanding the balk rule. the only two scenarios are if the pitcher doesn't come to a complete stop before pitching, and the 45 degree step towards first base. are there other rules? i know there are other rules, but that's all i know...

I think there are 11. I certainly don't know them all. Nor do they seem to all be enforced.

Like the check-swing rule (which they seem to be very unforgiving with this year) it's very subjectively enforced.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I can tell a fastball from a breaking ball, but that's about it. Like Ceetar, I can't tell a slider from a changeup. I used to try harder at this stuff; when I'd watch I'd try to think along with the pitcher and catcher regarding pitch selection and location, but I gave that up long ago. I now watch a lot more passively.

Sliders come in harder and have more right-to-left movement (or left to right for a lefty). Curves and changeups break downward.

Broadly, rom a righthanded pitcher's point of view,

• Sliders go from 2 o'clock toward 8 o'clock;
  
• Curves go from 1 o'clock toward 7 o' clock; and
  
• changeups from 12 o'clock toward 6 o'clock

[Ceetar]

Edgy DC wrote: I can tell a fastball from a breaking ball, but that's about it. Like Ceetar, I can't tell a slider from a changeup. I used to try harder at this stuff; when I'd watch I'd try to think along with the pitcher and catcher regarding pitch selection and location, but I gave that up long ago. I now watch a lot more passively. Sliders come in harder and have more right-to-left movement (or left to right for a lefty). Curves and changeups break downward. Broadly, rom a righthanded pitcher's point of view, Sliders go from 2 o'clock toward 8 o'clock; Curves go from 1 o'clock toward 7 o' clock; and changeups from 12 o'clock toward 6 o'clock

understanding and identifying are two different things. Then you mix in cut fastballs, or other fastballs that have movement to them. Or 2-seam (which are generally sinkers right?) fastballs and 4-seams.

[Willets Point]

I could probably take over this thread with my ignorance.

[metirish]

I nearly always get RF and LF mixed up.

[Frayed Knot]

I usually recognize pitches once they're thrown but rarely try to 'think ahead' as to what pitch is going to come next.

And, yes, sometimes the definitions of these pitches becomes a bit of a gray area at times. What one guy might call a slider would be similar to what another calls his curve or his 'slurve', and how a slider is different from a cutter sometimes matters more in the way it's gripped/delivered than in how it acts.

[Ceetar]

metirish wrote: I nearly always get RF and LF mixed up.

Left field is where odd things come from. Right field is sponsored by Modells.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Ceetar wrote: attgig wrote: I'm with you on figuring out which pitch is which. I also suck at really understanding the balk rule. the only two scenarios are if the pitcher doesn't come to a complete stop before pitching, and the 45 degree step towards first base. are there other rules? i know there are other rules, but that's all i know... I think there are 11. I certainly don't know them all. Nor do they seem to all be enforced. Like the check-swing rule (which they seem to be very unforgiving with this year) it's very subjectively enforced.

The check swing is getting less indulgence every year. Now it seeems you get rung up for starting at all.

[Guest themetfairy]

attgig wrote: I'm with you on figuring out which pitch is which. I also suck at really understanding the balk rule. the only two scenarios are if the pitcher doesn't come to a complete stop before pitching, and the 45 degree step towards first base. are there other rules? i know there are other rules, but that's all i know...

Same here.

[Gwreck]

I still haven't sat down, focused and tried to get a good understanding of how WAR and VORP are calculated. It's not that I don't know what they are; it's just that I couldn't calculate them. Personally, I still feel the tiniest bit disingenuous if using a statistic that I couldn't calculate myself.

[Benjamin Grimm]

I haven't embraced the new stats at all. I would have loved them if they had come out about twenty years earlier. I don't question their value, I just haven't devoted myself to becoming familiar with them.

I don't see the logic in adding OBP to SLG. I understand the motivation in combining them, but adding them doesn't make sense to me.

When displaying "triple slash" stats, I know that batting average is first, but I'm unsure if Slugging comes before or after OBP.

[Ceetar]

I haven't embraced the new stats at all. I would have loved them if they had come out about twenty years earlier. I don't question their value, I just haven't devoted myself to becoming familiar with them. I don't see the logic in adding OBP to SLG. I understand the motivation in combining them, but adding them doesn't make sense to me. When displaying "triple slash" stats, I know that batting average is first, but I'm unsure if Slugging comes before or after OBP.

AVG/OBP/SLG. There is debate on just how valuable OBP is over SLG. But it's not 1:1 and adding them is somewhat infair to high walk/less power hitters.

I spent a lot of last year trying to further my understanding of some of the advance stats. I have some huge reservations and i keep meaning to write them up in coherent articles, but I tend to get sidetracked.

[metirish]

Gwreck wrote: I still haven't sat down, focused and tried to get a good understanding of how WAR and VORP are calculated. It's not that I don't know what they are; it's just that I couldn't calculate them. Personally, I still feel the tiniest bit disingenuous if using a statistic that I couldn't calculate myself.

this , when I see it written I tend to move along . When I look at a batting average or an earned run average they immediately connect in my mind to what's going on and how an individual player might be performing. I also know that such things are often out of that players control. Trying to make that connection with WAR and VORP is just not easy.

[seawolf17]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't see the logic in adding OBP to SLG. I understand the motivation in combining them, but adding them doesn't make sense to me.

This. It's the math nerd in me, not wanting to add fractions with different denominators.

[Guest Edgy DC]

When OPS was gaining traction in the early-mid nineties, the dabate was over whether it would be more accurate to multiply slugging and on-base, a stat some referred to as SLOB. The Village Voice joked that John Kruk was leading the league in SLOB in two ways.

The biggest adherents of OPS tend to acknowledge that (On-Base x 1.4) + Slugging (or thereabouts) is a fairer measure of batters' relative productiveness, but straight On-Base + Slugging was quicker and dirtier and therefore an easier sell to the baseball-covering establishment, which turned out to be true, except for the likes of poor Murray Chass.

[Chad ochoseis]

metirish wrote: Gwreck wrote: I still haven't sat down, focused and tried to get a good understanding of how WAR and VORP are calculated. It's not that I don't know what they are; it's just that I couldn't calculate them. Personally, I still feel the tiniest bit disingenuous if using a statistic that I couldn't calculate myself. this , when I see it written I tend to move along . When I look at a batting average or an earned run average they immediately connect in my mind to what's going on and how an individual player might be performing. I also know that such things are often out of that players control. Trying to make that connection with WAR and VORP is just not easy.

I was in the middle of typing almost this exact post, but you beat me to it, ya bollox.

One of my New Year's resolutions this year was to really get an understanding of WAR. I've bought the Tom Tango "The Book" book, but haven't had the time to spend on it that it requires. But, yeah, the concept of "Wins Over Replacement" doesn't mean diddly to me until I know what it means to award a player a win.


Back to the thread topic...I have absolutely no idea how to tell a good defensive catcher from a bad one.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'm embarassed to admit that I don't understand how thrusting a bat through a circle in your fingers created by your thumb and index finger distinguishes filthy, perverted, gay sex from healthy, within-the-confines-of-marriage, heteronormative sex.

[TransMonk]

I still can't calculate on-base-percentage without looking up the equation.

I can tell fastballs from breaking balls in real time, but have a hard time distinguishing cutters and sinkers (although the speed gun helps).

Is it right down the "pike" or right down the "pipe"? I say "pike", but I swear Keith says "pipe".

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

Gwreck wrote: I still haven't sat down, focused and tried to get a good understanding of how WAR and VORP are calculated. It's not that I don't know what they are; it's just that I couldn't calculate them. Personally, I still feel the tiniest bit disingenuous if using a statistic that I couldn't calculate myself.

Same. I'm reluctant to make an argument using that stuff till I care deeply enough to figure it out. (Note: Please don't bother doing it for me).

I also don't know the diff between a 2-seam and 4-seam fb.

[seawolf17]

I agree with everyone on distinguishing pitches, but I will say this; knuckleballs are fucking AWESOME to watch from right behind the plate.

Same on the 2- and 4-seamers.

Tim McCarver's "Baseball For Brain Surgeons" is a really good book that explains a lot of that stuff, including pitches. I'm going to go back and re-read it.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Two-seamer:


Four-seamer:


Four seams cutting through the air vs. two changes the air-resistance and therefore the movement and velocity, but I'll be damned if I can recognize the difference as they fly.

[MFS62]

I'd like to make the transition from thinking of a player in terms of average/HR/RBI to BA/OBP/SLG, but I still am not sure what is a good number to look for.

Later

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

That's easy: 300/400/500 and you've got a terrific player

[G-Fafif]

I've never quite grasped why lefty pitchers are generally more effective against lefty hitters.

[HahnSolo]

2 seam v. 4 seam. Thanks for the visuals. Little Solo asked me the difference the other day and I had no idea.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I've seen the Uptons a-plently, but I still don't know one from the other --- which team they're on, which one plays outfield and which one plays infield, who was the better prospect at the time of drafting. None of that. I sometimes forget which race they belong to.

There's something about the occasional prospect that gets fantasy leaguers and draft followers and card-speculators drooling that totally turns me off and sometimes I never get over that and the player's career is half over or more before I bother paying attention to him. The Uptons were like that with me. I can tell you more about Khalil Greene than B.J. Upton, who I'll someday conflate with B.J. Surhoff.