Josh Thole, 2K11?

[A Boy Named Seo]

What do you feel about Josh Thole as of now, looking to next season?

[Frayed Knot]

I went with option B - #1 until (or unless) we find a better one.

I'm not totally sold on him being an everyday guy but I am getting there quickly.
His defense, in particular, has taken giant leaps since we first saw him in mid-2009 and the more he hits ML pitching the more he shows us that his BA & OBA skills aren't a fluke.

[metirish]

It's a good question, Panama must have inspired you.

I tend to agee with FK, plus I don't see the Mets going out with purpose to get a better catcher. All this could change of course if there is a new GM.

[Ceetar]

metirish wrote: It's a good question, Panama must have inspired you. I tend to agee with FK, plus I don't see the Mets going out with purpose to get a better catcher. All this could change of course if there is a new GM.

I went with 1.

I'm not sure there's a ton of quality catchers out there worth persuing, and i like what I've seen from thole. A little power lacking, but there are cures for that in other roster spots

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

He's a player.

I felt pretty good about Muffy heading into 09 though.

[smg58]

He has more minor league seasoning (at least at high levels) than Murphy did, and a bit more major league time than Murph did after 2008, so I'm confident we'll get what we're seeing so far.

I see him starting the season in a platoon role -- lefthanded catchers generally have to hit like Brian McCann to get starts against lefties.

His glove is fine and he handles the pitchers. The power is nonexistent, which would be a much bigger issue if he weren't a catcher. He's still an asset if he can keep his OBP north of .350.

[Frayed Knot]

He (Thole) is also at a position where offensive matters a whole lot less than it did with Muffy either at 1B or in LF.
If he merely matches what he's been doing over the last (his first) 250 or so ABs in the majors then he's if not a true #1 then at least a 1A.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm not comparing Thole and Muffy; just my CAHNfidence in Thole and Muffy.

[Frayed Knot]

And all I'm saying is that Thole has a greater margin for error simply based on the position.
My CAHNfindence in Murph was always tempered by the level of offense needed for his position just to be middle of the pack.

[RealityChuck]

There are very few really good catchers today, and even fewer that could be available. Thole should be the starter next year and for years to come.

As for power, that's just trying to put the square pegs of sabremetrics into the round holes of reality. No position is "supposed" to be a power position -- some just tend that way. But the key is that you get the power from somewhere in the lineup, not from a particular position.

[G-Fafif]

I hear Rod Barajas will be available.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

He's got pretty remarkable on-base and bat skills at this point in his career (with a 12% walk rate and nice 25%-ish line-drive numbers), and the power's leveled out at a .425 clip or so at each of the last three minor-league levels-- he'll be at least passable offensively. This is EXACTLY the sort of player we've needed more of in and around the Wrights, Beltrans and Bays.

Having already grown in leaps and bounds, his defense this year-- over 400-plus innings and including a whole mess of knuckler-and-junk-minding-- has been damn close to stellar. (The throwing accuracy-- and sneaky power, too-- has been a particular revelation.)

[Fman99]

I'm bullish on Thole. It shouldn't fall on his shoulders to compensate for the saddest hitting batch of 2Bs this side of Keokuk. He hits line drives, he plays defense, he gets on base. If Jason Kendall can squeeze a 15 year career with 80% of Thole's skill set how is Thole not worthy of a starting shot in 2011?

[Guest Edgy DC]

Kendall had wheels the first five years of his career. The fastest catcher of his genereation.

[batmagadanleadoff]

I'd bat Thole leadoff. Reyes has about as much business batting leadoff as Mookie Wilson did. Perhaps the next Mets manager will be strong enough to unpamper our current shortstop. This assumes though, that the next Mets manager will be as smart as I am, and recognizes that Thole belongs in the first place in the first place.

[bmfc1]

Nothing against Thole, but nothing really in his favor as I don't think that he does anything exceptionally well. If he hit .300 or hit 15 homers or had great "speed for a catcher" or a cannon for an arm, OK. He does all these things sufficiently but none very well. (Of course, he's young and may still do so.) Having said that, he's better than anything else they have or are likely to have so I'd get another right handed bat (not Blanco who is 14 for his last 84) to back him up.

[Vic Sage]

I don't get Chuck's pointless backhand at SABRmetrics. If anything, a sabrmetric analysis, which favors OB% as the KEY number in a player's production, probably OVERvalues Thole, as opposed to the standard kind of subjective "skills" analysis more commonly associated with the numerically challenged old guard scouting types who look at JT and say: "no speed, no power, no cannon. forget him."

[Lefty Specialist]

If I recall, one of the knocks on Thole in the minors was that he wasn't a particularly good defensive catcher (I'm assuming he was switched from some other position as many catchers are). Now, while he's no Gold Glover, he's more than held his own defensively (passed ball stats should have an asterisk because of Dickey).

I think there's room to grow here. We'll always be a little spoiled by the memory of Piazza, but that's a once in a blue moon type of catcher. If Thole can hit well enough to hold down the #7 spot in the order, hit the occasional dinger and drive in his share of runs, throw out some runners and manage a pitching staff, he'll be acceptable. I like his attitude, and with a little more work I think he can be a good one. He'll never be Piazza, but he won't be Brian Schneider either.

I see him as that 'complementary' player that you need on a real team.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

bmfc1 wrote: Nothing against [player], but nothing really in his favor as I don't think that he does anything exceptionally well.

Decent-to-good in most of the game's primary facets? In my day, we used to call that "well-rounded." (At third base, we call that "David Wright.")

[Guest Edgy DC]

It's also one of those things that keeps a guy usefully in the lineup until they get the most out of one of their skills and excel in an area.

Bob Boone wasn't defensive wiz until his thirties. He just did a lot of things decent to well. There's also a world of Wiggntons and Hubie Brooks out there who play well enough in all facets to fill a spot until one of those facets really starts to shine. These guys are good to have, often better than guys with some obvious extreme skills but are a burden in the lineup until their game fully comes around --- Reyes, Hundley, Tejada.

[Valadius]

Any catcher that bats .300 gets my vote of confidence.

[Vic Sage]

Valadius wrote: Any catcher that bats .300 gets my vote of confidence.

.300 BA is nice, but ...
1) he hasn't hit .300 over a full season yet,
2) not all .300 BAs are created equal,
3) if a C hits an empty .300 (low slg / low oba), he also needs a good glove/arm to be a valuable player, and
4) he still needs to be used appropriately in a lineup to maximize offensive value

[Vic Sage]

Lefty Specialist wrote: If I recall, one of the knocks on Thole in the minors was that he wasn't a particularly good defensive catcher (I'm assuming he was switched from some other position as many catchers are). Now, while he's no Gold Glover, he's more than held his own defensively (passed ball stats should have an asterisk because of Dickey). I think there's room to grow here. We'll always be a little spoiled by the memory of Piazza, but that's a once in a blue moon type of catcher. If Thole can hit well enough to hold down the #7 spot in the order, hit the occasional dinger and drive in his share of runs, throw out some runners and manage a pitching staff, he'll be acceptable. I like his attitude, and with a little more work I think he can be a good one. He'll never be Piazza, but he won't be Brian Schneider either. I see him as that 'complementary' player that you need on a real team.

This.
Although, if he doesn't develop power but continues to have a solid OB%/low K rate, I'd rather he hit 2nd than 7th.

[Ceetar]

Vic Sage wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: If I recall, one of the knocks on Thole in the minors was that he wasn't a particularly good defensive catcher (I'm assuming he was switched from some other position as many catchers are). Now, while he's no Gold Glover, he's more than held his own defensively (passed ball stats should have an asterisk because of Dickey). I think there's room to grow here. We'll always be a little spoiled by the memory of Piazza, but that's a once in a blue moon type of catcher. If Thole can hit well enough to hold down the #7 spot in the order, hit the occasional dinger and drive in his share of runs, throw out some runners and manage a pitching staff, he'll be acceptable. I like his attitude, and with a little more work I think he can be a good one. He'll never be Piazza, but he won't be Brian Schneider either. I see him as that 'complementary' player that you need on a real team. This. Although, if he doesn't develop power but continues to have a solid OB%/low K rate, I'd rather he hit 2nd than 7th.

Hopefully the new manager is capable of filling out a lineup properly with thoughts like that in mind.

[MFS62]

Vic Sage wrote: I'd rather he hit 2nd than 7th.

So do I.
Also- he has a 46% CS rate. Yes, its a small sample size, but I'm guessing it is one of the best ratios in the majors. And when you consider he is catching a knuckleball pitcher every fifth day, that is really impressive.

Later

[ashie62]

Opening day catcher on the cheap. One less piece of the puzzle to fill.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I guess I'm too emotionally compromised to vote right now, but...

[Willets Point]

Thole Cow!

[Guest themetfairy]

Let's keep him.

[Ceetar]

themetfairy wrote: Let's keep him.

I hear Bengie Molina's a free agent. Why didn't we lock that guy up for two last year again?