All-Time National League East Team: The First Baseman

[G-Fafif]

Who's your National League East first baseman? Choose two in case one is out on the town with his mustache that remains mysteriously bereft of gray.

[nymr83]

much harder than the catcher poll. i saw the 3 guys before me all we with Stargell/hernandez
i took Banks over hernandez

[Guest Kong76]

Stargell and No More Mr. Gray Beard

[Zvon]

I won't consider any one on this list who played significant time at another, or other positions.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Several good options here, but I went with Stargell and Hernandez (in that order).

[nymr83]

i was talked out of Banks after checking only his post-1968 numbers

[ashie62]

Hernandez & Buckner seemed to go together.

[metsmarathon]

63.2 Keith Hernandez, STL/NYM
22.4 Willie Stargell, PIT
21.6 Ryan Howard, PHI
20.3 Mark Grace, CHI
19.2 John Olerud, NYM

i tailored stargell's war by his %innings played at first here, in a given season. big willie played 60% of his career in teh outfield, most of that in left.

given credit for only hte three seasons in which he played first, dick allen is way out of the running. ernie banks only gets credit for his last three seasons with teh cubs, as prior to that he was a national leaguer, not an nleaster.

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'm going with Keith all the way and Ryan Howard after docking Stargell for his time in the outfield pre-1975 and infierior defense once he landed there.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

Oly and Keith. In that order.

[Guest Edgy DC]

No huh-way!

[batmagadanleadoff]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Oly and Keith. In that order.

This belongs in the 3B thread but I'm telling it to you that I'm voting for Red Garrett and Robin Ventura.

[G-Fafif]

Edgy DC wrote: I'm going with Keith all the way and Ryan Howard after docking Stargell for his time in the outfield pre-1975 and infierior defense once he landed there.

Stargell listed among 1Bmen since that's where his MVP came; same reason Torre is a 3Bman for these purposes.

Also, I probably wasn't thinking that far ahead to left field.

[batmagadanleadoff]

Stargell just missed two MVP awards as a left fielder.

[G-Fafif]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Stargell just missed two MVP awards as a left fielder.

He can take it up with (spoiler alert!) Billy Williams.

[batmagadanleadoff]

G-Fafif wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Stargell just missed two MVP awards as a left fielder. He can take it up with (spoiler alert!) Billy Williams.

And Billy Williams could take it up with Johnny Bench. I guess that as far as Stargell goes here, an MVP in the hand is worth two in the bush.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

batmagadanleadoff wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Oly and Keith. In that order. This belongs in the 3B thread but I'm telling it to you that I'm voting for Red Garrett and Robin Ventura.

Not homer-ing here (well, not exclusively).

Chop up those NL East-career WAR numbers for each of our candidates here by season, and you see surprising things. 1998 was a historically good offensive season, though it may not be as superficially impressive as Howard and Stargell's eye-popping power counting stats; take defense into account, and he's Pujolsian in value over the three Met years.

[batmagadanleadoff]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Oly and Keith. In that order. This belongs in the 3B thread but I'm telling it to you that I'm voting for Red Garrett and Robin Ventura. Not homer-ing here (well, not exclusively). Chop up those NL East-career WAR numbers for each of our candidates here by season, and you see surprising things. 1998 was a historically good offensive season, though it may not be as superficially impressive as Howard and Stargell's eye-popping power counting stats; take defense into account, and he's Pujolsian in value over the three Met years.

I know what you mean about Oly. He was one of my favorite Mets. This might sound sacrilegious to many Met fans but pound for pound, or rate-wise, Olerud might've even been a better Met than Keith. His defense was not only underrated, but Gold-Glove caliber (whatever the hell that means). Olerud's Q rating during his Mets years took a beating as his years here coincided with the steroid era during which Olerud was probably considered less compelling a player in comparison to the dominant attention-getting performances of some morally "suspect" rival first basemen. Of course, I'm assuming that Olerud was clean and base my assumption on nothing more than subjective hunches.

Still, Keith was an NL East superstar for about a decade, and an MVP. He's considered to be the best fielding first baseman in modern baseball history and a revolutionary who redefined the position. I don't see how Olerud, as great as he was, could've surpassed Keith's accomplishments in just three seasons.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Yeah, my contention is always that Keith is simply in another category as a firstbaseman. He had a lot of good contemporaries --- Buckner, Driessen, Mattingly, Murray, Hrbek. Some could pick like he could. Some could play off the bag and cover the hole (sometimes) like he could. Some covered the line like he could. Buckner could throw. (He had to.) But he did something nobody else did in how he took the bunt away. And nobody I've seen has done it since.

I'm certain Olerud was all Keith was at first --- except on the bunt.

He found a new way to beat people, and that happens so rarely, and is usually rapidly imitated, to at least somewhat neutralize it. I don't know why Herzog ever bunted again against the Mets, but he did. Maybe his pride just wouldn't allow him to give in to Keith. If I was Herzog, I'd try to get one or two of my righthanded batters to butcher boy the ball right into Keith's charging face, but I never saw (at least I don't recall seeing) anybody pull that off.

[soupcan]

I'll go with Mex. I suppose Stargell and Howard would be my next 2.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

My thing is, are we building an imaginary team, or is this an honorific?

I've been voting based on the build-the-best-team model-given-their-performance-at-these-positions-while-in-the-NL-East, with longevity only really counting insofar as it would be a predictor of what that guy will give you over the course of an imaginary season(-s). If what we're choosing is laurel recipients, then my votes may change significantly.

Of these, Keith's on my team, no doubt. But I think Oly may get more starts. It's REALLY close, though.

[soupcan]

I've been voting based on who comes to mind as the most representative of that position in that division.

Hence Bowa over Ramirez at ss and Hernandez over Howard at 1B.

[Zvon]

Jeeze, since we're all coming clean Mex and Howard.

Where is the mystery in the world anymore?

Had to go with Howard on a projection basis, with all that he has done,
which is pretty incredible. (no, I won't knock on wood...he's not a Met.
Cripes, he's a Phil! Be a shame if he fell under a bus but I won't lose any sleep)
And I have seen his fielding improve dramatically over the last few years.

[batmagadanleadoff]

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: My thing is, are we building an imaginary team, or is this an honorific?

I assumed honorific. Nothing else even occurred to me.

[Benjamin Grimm]

Hernandez and Stargell.

Olerud only spent three years in the NL East. I never gave him a moment's consideration.

[MFS62]

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Hernandez and Stargell. Olerud only spent three years in the NL East. I never gave him a moment's consideration.

Just curious, how many years did Keith spend in the NL East?
Did the Cards play in another division during part of his career?

Later

[Willets Point]

MFS62 wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: Hernandez and Stargell. Olerud only spent three years in the NL East. I never gave him a moment's consideration. Just curious, how many years did Keith spend in the NL East? Did the Cards play in another division during part of his career? Later

Hernandez played 16 of his 17 seasons in the NL East. The Cardinals didn't leave the division until after his retirement.

[MFS62]

Thanks.
Later

[Willets Point]

I'm kind of giddy to see the All-Time National League East Team starting pitchers.

For starters, it will have Tom Seaver and Steve Carlton. And there's late career but still winning a CYA Bob Gibson and early career but still winning a CYA Pedro Martinez.

Then there's Doc Gooden and Rick Sutcliffe. And Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz.