Church for Francouer

[Guest Edgy DC]

How do you really feel?

[metirish]

I love it, something needed to change and maybe this shakes things up a bit and we win a few games here.

[seawolf17]

Never mind change for change's sake.

We got a younger player with better years ahead of him. Love it.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

In order to have better years ahead of him, he will have to change his approach as a hitter and player (he's throws well, but has worse range than he should with his speed, and is really not a great fielder at all).

He has shown no such ability to make adjustments at any point during his career so far, and seems if anything to be regressing quickly (See Reyes for contrast).

The only reason it isn't "hate" for me is that it's more pointless than it is deleterious-- the real harm is that we'll never really know if Church could have brought back better catch.

[Fman99]

My initial reaction was to not like it. I have decided to be indifferent and see how it works out.

[metsmarathon]

not like. not hate, but definitely not like.

[Guest sharpie]

like.

[smg58]

Dislike. Church is simply the better player.

[DocTee]

Dislike. Church is better.

[Guest LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr]

If stats and years-long trends don't give you pause...

... the consensus from FAN is unequivocal support for the trade. Enjoy!

[nymr83]

hate hate hate. church is just better and i dont see that changing. francoeur has done nothing but take two steps back at the plate each of last 2 years

[Benjamin Grimm]

I'm in the middle. My sense is that Church is better, but it's possible that Francouer may have a better future ahead of him.

I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger on this one, though.

[Guest themetfairy]

I worry this one will come back to bite us in the ass.

[bmfc1]

I like Church but I think we've seen him as good as he'll be. A good #6 hitter, semi-dangerous against righties, not feared against lefties, an excellent fielder, needs some love and support to avoid losing confidence (don't we all). Francoeur has more upside than Church but his upside, '06 and '07, may have come and gone. If new surroundings can help him get back to even close to that level, it's a good trade for the Mets. If he doesn't improve on his current level, then it's not. Because of the greater upside, and given that we're looking toward the 2010 Mets, I like the deal. However, I fear that since Bobby Cox, who is smarter than what we've got, couldn't turn him around, then he won't improve. At minimum, it shows that Omar is alive and since he's the only GM we've got, that's nice to see.

[Frayed Knot]

I worry this one will come back to bite us in the ass.[/quote:3vo0fxg3]

That's actually the one thing I don't worry about.
Church is already 30 y/o and isn't likely to become something we haven't already seen. The question remains whether Francoeur is going to be an improvement or not but, at worst, he's probably a lower-on base guy w/a bit more power and probably a wash in the field. The upside, on the other hand, if things all break our way is pretty good.

Now I prefer trades that don't bank too much on 'Hope' but at least this isn't a prospect for suspect deal that we could feel in the gut for years to come.

[Guest John Cougar Lunchbucket]

I'm concerned that in the event these guys do what they've always done (which is most likely), we're screwed longer and harder than the Braves are.

Also it's such a balls-out challenge trade you have to figure both GMs knew exactly what they were doing, and so does your CAHNfidence go behind Omar or Wren/Schuerholz?

Yeesh.

OTOH, I will be at the Jeff Francoeur Debut tonight and I'm gonna stand up and cheer.

[ashie62]

Love it..Francouer will be in the lineup everyday beyond this year. Now get Adam Dunn or IB for this year and next

It is an in-sason rebuilding..

Face it..the injured core will be seen at spring training

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Congratulations, Omar. You just made the team worse. Ryan Church is no world beater, but he can play in the major leagues. Jeff Francoeur cannot. Francoeur is a significantly worse defensive and offensive player than the player the Mets traded away.

I was going to list a bunch of outfielders' WARs to demonstrate how many people play baseball better than Jeff Fucking Francoeur (a list that includes Endy Chavez, Angel Pagan and every replacement-level player in the majors and minors), but since that list would take far too long to type, I figured this would sum it up best:

Jeff Francoeur's 2009 WAR: -.06
Fernando Martinez's 2009 WAR: -.05

Jeff Francouer hurt his team more than Fernando Martinez hurt the Mets because he played more games. With Fartinez, however, it isn't unreasonable to expect improvement as he plays more games. The more games Francouer plays, the worse he makes his team. He is NOT good enough to be a major league baseball player; just as Omar is, apparently, NOT good enough to be a major league baseball general manager.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Another ex-Met who is going to kick our ass in some big game.

[Guest themetfairy]

The Dugout has some fun at the expense of this trade.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Congratulations, Omar. You just made the team worse. Ryan Church is no world beater, but he can play in the major leagues. Jeff Francoeur cannot. Francoeur is a significantly worse defensive and offensive player than the player the Mets traded away.

I was going to list a bunch of outfielders' WARs to demonstrate how many people play baseball better than Jeff Fucking Francoeur (a list that includes Endy Chavez, Angel Pagan and every replacement-level player in the majors and minors), but since that list would take far too long to type, I figured this would sum it up best:

Jeff Francoeur's 2009 WAR: -.06
Fernando Martinez's 2009 WAR: -.05

Jeff Francouer hurt his team more than Fernando Martinez hurt the Mets because he played more games. With Fartinez, however, it isn't unreasonable to expect improvement as he plays more games. The more games Francouer plays, the worse he makes his team. He is NOT good enough to be a major league baseball player; just as Omar is, apparently, NOT good enough to be a major league baseball general manager.

[dgwphotography]

Dislike. I always got the feeling that Church never got a real shot to play regularly, mainly because the manager didn't like him...

[Guest Kong76]

I took, "eh, like." Just a smidgen over neutral.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Why is he being compared to all these guys and not Ryan Church. That's the only relevant player here.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Why is he being compared to all these guys and not Ryan Church. That's the only relevant player here.

[Frayed Knot]

I always got the feeling that Church never got a real shot to play regularly, mainly because the manager didn't like him...[/quote:1kl1dgmq]

Church did start 19 of the 22 games to start the season, and then 28 of the 30 between getting off the DL thru the trade.
There were a few gaps in between although he still started most of the time aside for the stretch leading up to, and then being put on, the DL.

The manager not liking him always seemed more like speculation fanned by Jerry's spring training (motivational?) comments than actual fact. Bottom line is Church just didn't hit well enough.

[nymr83]

If you're worried that a poor player is going to play over a not-as-poor player, then your problem is with the manager, and has nothing to do with this trade

thats true except to the extent that the front office tells the manager that they didnt acquire he guy to sit on the bench... i dont know how much relative power Jerry has there, it probably varies widely between teams.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

The worst justification for this trade is that Francoeur stays on the field. He has negative value on the field.

[Zvon]

Dislike.
Its like a none move all dressed up like a move.
We needed certain things at this point of this season.
This is not what we needed.

If it turns out to make a difference in the direction this seasons heading,
or if even within the next year Francouer improves on his deficiencies,
then I'll thank Omar.
Right now all I feel about Omar is disappointment.
As I do with this season so far.

[Guest Edgy DC]

The worst justification for this trade is that Francoeur stays on the field. He has negative value on the field.[/quote:3gvqmbzk]

I don't think that's the worst justification for this trade.

I don't think anybody can fairly think the Mets acquired him with the expectation that he will continue as he's playing, or that they will stick with him long if he does.