Man-Ram

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Manny has apparently gotten under the skin of Boston Brass, pushing around their PR director and allegedly striking out on purpose and malingering. The Sox have played well while Ortiz has been out using Manny at DH and an excellent defensive outfield of Ellsbury, Crisp, and Drew. There is some speculation (isn't there always?) that Boston might look to trade Ramirez based on their unhappiness with his behavior as of late combined with Ortiz's return from injury. (I didn't put any sources in this paragraph, but a google news search will turn up plenty of articles)

First, I'd like to say that I don't think Manny will be traded. The Sox have a good thing going with him and Ortiz in the middle of that lineup, and I don't see them messing with it, no matter how big a pain in the ass Manny becomes while angling for a new contract.

That said, would anyone hypothetically be interested in trading for Ramirez? For me, it comes down to a few points:

1. What prospects will it cost? I could see dealing Fernando Martinez heads-up in this deal, but I would avoid adding anything else.

2. What kind of contract extension is he looking for? Right now, his current contract has two years left, both club-options for the same rate he signed for back in the Boras dream days of 2000. I could see guaranteeing those two years. If he wants a three year deal I'd walk away.

3. How badly is he undermining his team? Is he actually malingering? Did he really strike out on purpose? This is really bad stuff. From the outside it looks really, really, unforgiveably bad. Like, Sheffield intentionally throwing balls away bad. If the way it appears is how things actually are, there's no way I touch him. Then again, if things aren't really all that bad between him and the Sox, Boston wouldn't deal him in the first place.

So what are ya left with?
A great player who may or may not be intentionally sabatoging his team who might or might not be assuaged by a new, reasonable or unreasonable contract and who may or may not be available for a reasonable or unreasonable price.

Just wanted to see what people think.

[nymr83]

they're not trading away manny ramirez in the middle of a penant race. end of (non-)story.

[seawolf17]

There's zero chance the Sox trade Manny Ramirez in the thick of a pennant race, but that said, I'd take him on my team any day of the week.

[Guest AG/DC]

If (and I mean if) somebody's a big enough pain in the ass that a team with everything they lose is looking to divest...

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Okay, so furthering the wild adventures in hypothetical land, would it make sense for all parties involved if there was a three-way trade that would send Fernando Martinez to Pittsburgh, Jason Bay to Boston and Manny Ramirez to Queens?

1. Why Boston would make the deal- Manny Ramirez is, allegedly, a huge pain in the ass. Jason Bay is nearly as productive when he's healthy without the "Manny being Manny" incidents.

2. Why Pittsburgh would make the deal- If they liked Tabata enough to trade away 2 big trading chips, wouldn't it follow that they'd be interested in a much better prospect?

3. Why the Mets would make the deal- to get more production out of left field, obviously. The better question is why the Mets would make this a three-way if they could land Bay for Martinez. Well, Ramirez is better, at least offensively, than Bay. He also doesn't have a history of injury the way Bay does.

Does this trade make any sense? I'd say it might. I know it won't happen, but I don't know if I would, hypothetically, mind you, make this deal.

Just some wild speculation for a lazy summer day.

[Frayed Knot]

I don't want him ... there, I said it.

He's coming up on the option years of his orignal FA deal which was 8x$20mil plus two [u:4fc763bf82]club[/u:4fc763bf82] option years at the same rate. The uncertainty of the Sox picking those years up is apparently (though who can tell?) one of the things that's upsetting Manny lately as rumors fly of faked injuries and the like. Any deal now - or say in the off-season - would probably at minimum need to have those years guaranteed or possibly tacked onto beyond just the two or risk a veto via Manny's 10+5 rights.

His offense, though still real good, is off this year and last from what it was at his peak. That his defense, baserunning, attitude, and all-around game smarts are bad and getting worse isn't even up for debate, nor are those things suddenly going to get better as he moves into the NL, into a (much) larger LF, and heads towards age 40 (37 to begin next season).
And then there's the question of what it would take to pry him away.

Dan Shaugnessy weighs in on how bad it's become as even Manny's backers start heading for the hills.

[Guest AG/DC]

Didn't he turn a 100-year-old former player off of baseball?

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

The Mets are playing well right now, I don't think adding a malcontent to the team would be a good idea. Particularly when you look at depleting the Mets thin farm system in order to get him. I'm with Frayed Knot, no thanks.

[Guest AG/DC]

I don't think we're looking at a thin system right now.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

The depth and strength of the Mets farm system. Goiing into this season, Baseball America had Fernando Martinez as the only Mets farm hand listed in their top 100 prospects. When baseball Prospectus listed the top farm systems for their prospects this spring, the Mets system was rated in the bottom half of all teams.

The Mets appear to have had a good draft this summer, but major help from the farm system does not appear to be coming in the near future, unless Martinez is ready for 2009.

Regardless of our farm systems current status, I would be opposed to trading Fernando Martinez or multiple other prospects for Manny Ramirez.

[Fman99]

I beg to differ. If it's a money dump and the Mets aren't forced to give up their bluest chippers I say go get him. The guy can still rake, and New York is a media circus no matter what is happening. I'd even say do it if the Mets were obligated to pick up the first option year, give Fartinez another year in the minors to stay healthy and hit.

I am watching him tonight and he just smokes the ball in every direction.

[Frayed Knot]

But Boston isn't going to be in money-dump mode - and especially not in the middle of a pennant race.

It seems to me that either they either decide they can handle him for another 2 months and THEN cut ties by declining the option ...
**OR**
if they do want to trade him NOW they'll do it with the intention of getting as much as possible for him not just to get out from under approx 1/3 of 1 year's salary (a relatively small amount in the grand scheme of Manny-dom).

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

Yeah, Boston's not going to dump him for salary purposes. If they can't get the chips back that they want, they'll just live with him raking as their cleanup hitter the rest of the year and let him leave in the offseason.

[Guest AG/DC]

I'm going public with my private suspicion that Manny will end up in Philadelphia.

[Guest Vince Coleman Firecracker]

AG/DC wrote: I'm going public with my private suspicion that Manny will end up in Philadelphia.

Where would Burrell play? Fenway?

[duan]

for Pat Burrell + prospect?

Jason Werth would hardly be traded.

[duan]

and Pat Burrell's having a monster year.
Playing Werth in Center might be an option.

[Frayed Knot]

The question at this point might be why Philly would do a straight Manny for Burrell deal.
Any upgrade in offense over the remaining 50-game stretch would be minimal at best (Pat the Bat has the same OBP and better slugging to date) plus the headache factor would go through the roof and Manny is the one guy who could suddenly make their defense worse.

[smg58]

I can't see the Sox doing this without getting equivalent major league help in return. In other words, not Burrell and a prospect, but Burrell and somebody else who can help the team right now.

Barring a third team getting involved (like the Pirates with Bay), I don't see how the Mets can pull this one off. But this is another one of those situations where it never hurts to ask. If the Red Sox can win twice with Manny, I don't see how he'd hurt us more than he'd help. Then again, I'd put my money against them dealing somebody they know they can win with for a lesser player or players.

[Guest AG/DC]

I don't know how it would shake out. I just like the thought of the Mets pushing Phillie's panic button.

It's not like the city of Philadelphia has some sort of civic ban and disgruntled grouches.

[Guest metsguyinmichigan]

Can the Phillies even take on ManRam's outrageous contract? Seems out of character for them.

[Guest AG/DC]

Just being crazy.

I'm really enjoying that the Mets victory tour is occuring just in time to seriously affect the thinking of GMs staying up nights worrying about how to align their team's stance at the trading deadline.

I mean, I'm enjoying so much about this, but that's a nice particular.

[Frayed Knot]

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Can the Phillies even take on ManRam's outrageous contract? Seems out of character for them.

It's only 1/3 of one season (approx $7mil) so it's not THAT outrageous. Any team COULD take that on if they thought it was the difference. There's no obligation to assume beyond this season.

[Centerfield]

The Red Sox want equal value in return. So the best you can hope for by trading for Ramirez is standing still.

He's not going to be traded.

[soupcan]

These rumors won't die.

People are saying Manny to the Phillies is quite possible with Burrell going the other way.

I don't know why Phillie would make that deal.

[Guest AG/DC]

Because somebody googled and found my acid-drenched prediction. Isn't the interweb excellent?

[soupcan]

Well, I hope they do it.

As Frayed Knot said, Ramirez and Burrell are having similar years. The Phils are 1/2 game out. If they want to mess with their chemistry without adding a significant upgrade over Burrell (so far this season), then more power to them.

[duan]

I wouldn't want a totally energised Manny Ramirez 99 miles down the road in Philly

[seawolf17]

I look forward to Dallas Green's head exploding.

[soupcan]

duan wrote: I wouldn't want a totally energised Manny Ramirez 99 miles down the road in Philly

I see what you're saying but Manny's been off his game so far this year (for Manny). He couldn't do any more damage to the Mets head-to-head than Burrell does anyway.

And Burrell is 31 while Manny is 36. You have to think that Manny would want at least one of his option years guaranteed (at $20M) and that may hamper the Phils making moves down the road.

I look at it as an even trade with the added benefit of the whacko factor being infused into the Phillie clubhouse. I don't think it would improve the Phillies and has the potential to mess with the chemistry of a winning ballclub.

I'm not outright advocating it, but it wouldn't really worry me.