Closer Comfort Factor

[MFS62]

Which of the following ex-Met relievers would you have had the most confidence in coming in to protect a one run lead in Game 7 of a World Series?

Later

[metirish]

In my years of following the Mets I have known four real closers, Franco, Benitez , Looper and Wagner. I voted Benitez.

[Guest AG/DC]

Jeff Reardon was never really the Mets' closer. Joe Torre tended to use him when the team was behind, and Neil Allen when they were ahead. He only racked up 10 saves in 97 appearances as a Met, less than a third of what Doug Sisk got. Allen should probably be there.

I like Orosco, but part of my comfort in him was knowing that, if he didn't have it, McDowell was also there. McDowell had the same advantage.

Closer tandems rool.

[MFS62]

I had Allen on my list, but forgot to add him to the list.
When I went back to add him, the system wouldn't let me. Maybe that's because votes had already been cast.
Thanks.
Reardon and Aguillera were ex-Mets and were relievers. I never used the word closer. They went on to become closers for the teams to which they were traded.

Later

[Fman99]

metirish wrote: In my years of following the Mets I have known four real closers, Franco, Benitez , Looper and Wagner. I voted Benitez.

Benitez? He couldn't even shut the door in Game 1 of a World Series. Ugh.

[metirish]

A expected reaction to Benitez, I figure if we are at game seven then he would have closed the door a few times.

[Fman99]

metirish wrote: A expected reaction to Benitez, I figure if we are at game seven then he would have closed the door a few times.

Well, Jose Mesa closed out game 6 of the 1997 WS. Didn't help him much in the next game though...

[Guest AG/DC]

You're missing the point.

And because a guy didn't doesn't mean he couldn't. All it conclusively means is that he didn't.

Mariano Rivera may be the "Greatest Post-Season Closer of All Time," but Arizona didn't care in game seven in 2001.

[Guest OlerudOwned]

Edgy's general idea is the one I had when I piced Wagner. I just feel that Billy's the best pitcher on the list.

[Fman99]

AG/DC wrote: You're missing the point. And because a guy didn't doesn't mean he couldn't. All it conclusively means is that he didn't. Mariano Rivera may be the "Greatest Post-Season Closer of All Time," but Arizona didn't care in game seven in 2001.

I think you're the one missing the point.

Read anyone's account of that game and they'll tell you Mesa was scared shitless up there in game 7.

Anyone, ANYONE, who claims they'd want Armando Benitez trying to close out game 7 for their team in the World Series should have their head examined. That's the point.

[Guest AG/DC]

I don't care about Jose Mesa. And I'm sure Irish has had his head examined many times.

And your evidence for your postiion is that he failed in game one. And if you simulataneously eliminate anybody else with a high-profile failure, you're left with nobody.

Whom did you vote for?

[metirish]

Because I only saw four closers for the Mets I chose one of them, perhaps I should have just picked Jesse and be done with it, but out of the four I saw I would choose Benitez to be my closer in game seven followed next by Franco.

[Fman99]

AG/DC wrote: I don't care about Jose Mesa. And I'm sure Irish has had his head examined many times. And your evidence for your postiion is that he failed in game one. And if you simulataneously eliminate anybody else with a high-profile failure, you're left with nobody. Whom did you vote for?

We're not talking about a single high profile failure here. It's not like we didn't watch Benitez blow countless games against the Braves those last few years, and even a playoff game against the Giants earlier in those same playoffs.

I voted for Tug McGraw, thanks. Give me Mr. "Ya Gotta Believe" over ol' Melty Magoo anytime.

[Guest Triple Dee]

May I respectfully point out that Benitez habitually blew saves in big games. Game 1 was the pi�ce de r�sistance.

[Guest AG/DC]

I think Benitez's failures are very countable.

Tug McGraw is a great answer. But let's not forget that they were so deep in the hole in 1973, to a large extent, because he hadn't been anywhere near the pitcher he was in 1971 and 1972. He pitched well in the 1973 series (Hodges didn't use him at all in 1969), but he, like Benitez, blew the lead in Game One.

I have no idea where Metly Magoo comes from.

[Fman99]

I think a lot of this is the lasting image I have of these guys. Sure, Benitez had some postseason saves and McGraw tanked some. These things happen.

Ultimately, I associate McGraw with being a winner and coming through in the clutch, being a leader and a beloved Met. And I associate Benitez with his biggest failures, his trying to throw every pitch 105 MPH and ignoring his other pitches, and his general huffiness and inabilitiy to take responsibility for his own shortcomings.

[G-Fafif]

I went with only closer who ever closed out a Game 7 for the Mets.

Great hypothetical in the tradition of who'd win a fight, Rocky or Rambo?

[Guest AG/DC]

="Fman99"]Ultimately, I associate McGraw with being a winner and coming through in the clutch, being a leader and a beloved Met.

I do, also, although mostly that's from his rubber-arm performance in 1980. Maybe my head should be examined.

[Centerfield]

Other: Pedro Martinez. He counts. Game 5 versus the Indians in 1999.

[Willets Point]

Centerfield wrote: Other: Pedro Martinez. He counts. Game 5 versus the Indians in 1999.

Six no-hit innings in a do-or-die game is really the ultimate save.

[stevejrogers]

AG/DC wrote: I don't care about Jose Mesa. And I'm sure Irish has had his head examined many times. And your evidence for your postiion is that he failed in game one. And if you simulataneously eliminate anybody else with a high-profile failure, you're left with nobody.

Difference is Benitez (and Mesa as well) does not have anything on the good side of the ledger the way Rivera, Gossage, Eckersley and Fingers (easily the top 4 relievers in history) do despite mega failures.

Benitez does not have that "get back on the horse" mentality that the aforementioned 4 did (or has in Rivera's case). Hence why it is tough to really want Benitez there in a Game 7, despite the fact that he may have closed out games along the way.

[Frayed Knot]

"Benitez does not have that "get back on the horse" mentality "

So on the day following the JT Snow HR game when Armando tossed 2 shutout innings (the 10th & 11th) on 1 hit and 1 walk (IW) including K-ing the side in order in the 11th doesn't count as bouncing back and succeeding because ... because it doesn't fit the predetermined mold I'm guessing.

[stevejrogers]

The hell is your point? You are doing what you are accusing me of doing, taking one out of a few big spots that Benitez actually came back after a bad performance to try and defend your position that Benitez is a big game pitcher.

He ISN'T.

It's not like he has only had a few bad outings, he actually does hold the record for most blown saves in postseason history.

The Benitez revisionism on this board can be quite scary.

I can buy Irish's pick based on Benitez being the "best" of the lot of Franco, Looper and Wagner based on his arm and the fact that Wagner doesn't have the best postseason track record either, but lets not start acting like Benitez should be put even in the same conversation as the next tier below Rivera, Gossage, Eckersley, Fingers and Sutter (if you want a top 5).

Are we going to make a case that Mitch Williams wasn't as bad as the Carter homer made him out to be?

[Guest AG/DC]

SteveJRogers wrote: Difference is Benitez (and Mesa as well) does not have anything on the good side of the ledger the way Rivera, Gossage, Eckersley and Fingers (easily the top 4 relievers in history) do despite mega failures.

Steve, the notion that Benitez has "nothing on the good side of the ledger" is absolutely baseless. I'm sorry if that's scary, but it's true.

[Frayed Knot]

"You are doing what you are accusing me of doing"

Of course I am.
Attempting to prove a point by individual anecdote (as you did) is a lousy make the original argument just as it is to contradict it.



"taking one out of a few big spots that Benitez actually came back after a bad performance"

You mean one of those that you claim didn't exist?



"to try and defend your position that Benitez is a big game pitcher."

Who said that was my position?

[Guest Grote15]

Isn't Jesse Orosco the only mets to actually do this..why would anyone vote for anyone else?

[Guest AG/DC]

SteveJRogers wrote: I can buy Irish's pick based on Benitez being the "best" of the lot of Franco, Looper and Wagner based on his arm and the fact that Wagner doesn't have the best postseason track record either, but lets not start acting like Benitez should be put even in the same conversation as the next tier below Rivera, Gossage, Eckersley, Fingers and Sutter (if you want a top 5).

Is that in any way what we're talking about?

SteveJRogers wrote: Are we going to make a case that Mitch Williams wasn't as bad as the Carter homer made him out to be?

I don't care about Mitch Williams either.

[Centerfield]

Piazza sucks.

[Guest AG/DC]

Is that archived somewhere?

[stevejrogers]

AG/DC wrote: Closer tandems rool.

Except of course when it doesn't.

Chances are Jesse is on the mound because Roger just pitched in the 6th through 8th. Which means Sisk, Gorman, Sambito, etc are just waiting there not to be used.

And vice versa.

Plus as seen with the Red Sox, "closer by committee" is a horrible, horrible way to do a bullpen.

Heck the Yankees had to let a former CY winning reliever go because they forked a whole lot of cash to a flavor of the month. You think Steinbrenner was going to allow his new toy to go in every other day or work if Sparky Lyle didn't get the job done?

I only bring that example up because I heard Gossage explain that he had hoped that would be the way it would have worked out with a two-headed closer.

It's like having two starting QBs, you really don't have one.