Name the Team:

[Guest Edgy DC]

This is from an article I pulled off the the web today. What is the common thread that binds the team below?

C: Bill Freehan
1B: Will Clark
2B: Lou Whitaker
SS: Bill Dahlen
3B: Ron Santo
LF: Bob Johnson
CF: Al Oliver
RF: Jimmy Wynn
SP: Mike Cuellar
RP: Dan Quisenberry

[MFS62]

Don't recognize Dahlen, but I'd guess players who at one time or another during their careers were judged to be best at their positions, but never made the Hall of Fame.
I remember reading an article a few years ago that made a pretty good case for "Indian Bob" Johnson's enshrinement, using SABR-type number comparisons to Hall of Famers, rather than "counting stats".

If the guy who wrote that is still able to get on this board, I wish he'd please post that article. (It was NOT Scrapple8)

Later

[Guest Edgy DC]

I'll post it.

You're close. The judges say I need more.

[Guest iramets]

Edgy DC wrote: I'll post it. You're close. The judges say I need more.

I'll guess some sabermetric measure, like Win Shares leader at each position.

[Guest Edgy DC]

No, ther'es not a sabermetric link. Part of what links them to one another is subjective. These are the best players at each position to ________.

[Willets Point]

...never play for the Mets.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Nope.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Slow day.

Best player at each position to get eliminated from Hall of Fame Consideration by the BBWAA after only one year on the ballot.

[Guest Johnny Dickshot]

Really Slow.

Someone start a Thin Lizzy thread and get MetIrish back in biz

[HahnSolo]

Of the guys I've heard of on that list, which disqualifies Dahlen and Johnson, Santo is the one I'm most surprised was eliminated in the first year. Especially considering the groundswell of support there seems to be for him now.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Prediction: There will be a similar groundswell of support for Whitaker someday, and I hope he doesn't have to lose his legs to get it.

He and Ryne Sandberg are practically the same player, except (1) he retired on top of his game, (2) he never won an MVP (but Sandberg was never on a championship team), and (3) Ryno, for what it's worth, was white.

But I don't really think it's about color. Alan Trammell and Whitaker as a pair are a tragic overlooked couple of players.

[stevejrogers]

Edgy DC wrote: Slow day. Best player at each position to get eliminated from Hall of Fame Consideration by the BBWAA after only one year on the ballot.

WOW! I'm surprised about Santo. I guess the new Vets Committee completely abolished that rule about a certain cutoff (I think it was right around 20% or so) means you are not to be considered for the "back door" election

[HahnSolo]

I agree with Edgy about Trammell and Whitaker. I long thought that if given the chance to start a team, I would have taken Trammell over Ripken or Ozzie.
And the Whitaker/Sandberg thing is interesting. They were close enough as players that it doesn't make sense that one gets in to the Hall relatively easily while another is eliminated in one vote.

[nymr83]

Whitaker and Sandberg do look a heck of alot like the same player. Whitaker walked alot more, he also got caught stealing too often (at 65% its time for the manager to give you a permanent red light), Sandberg barely out-slugged him. Sandberg was the MVP once and 4th twice, Whitaker was 8th once and thats it.
Maybe Sandberg is better, but better enough to get in while Whitaker doesn't even get a 2nd year of consideration? no way.
Another good comparison to both of them, imo, is Roberto Alomar, is he a hall of famer? is it debatable?

[Gwreck]

Alomar definetly compares favorably to Whitaker. He's pretty close to Sandberg, but I'd think I'd take Alomar over Sandberg, slightly.

Overall, Alomar has the best HOF credentials of the 3, I think. Can't forget the 2 WS wins, with some good postseason performances, including an ALCS MVP. Defense compares favorably for him over both, as well.

[Guest Edgy DC]

Defense has to be looked at closely. I don't think Alomar's D disappeared the day he put on a Met uniform, but had rather been fading for years and was being protected by his reputation. When his bat was fading, and in a town where he had no history, recognizing the failures of his defense became as much a cliche as recognizing its graces in the towns where he succeeded.

But I'll bet somebody will find (or has found) statistically that he descended into defensive averageness back in Cleveland while he was still winning Gold Gloves.

But Whitaker put up a 117 OPS+ over 9967 plate appearances; Sandberg had 114 OPS+ over 9282 appearances. I don't know if it's relevant that Whitaker slugged .518 in his last season, but it's remarkable. The guy was a better hitter in his 30s than his 20s.

[metsmarathon]

="Edgy DC"]But I'll bet somebody will find (or has found) statistically that he descended into defensive averageness back in Cleveland while he was still winning Gold Gloves.

baseball prospectus rates him as six runs above average, defensively, for his career, for what that's worth.

his zone rating, more importantly, was the same 0.789 in 2001 for the indians as it was in 2002 for the mets. the next year it was worse. he also would go from a season with 5 errors to a season with 15 errors to a season with 5 then back to 11. very consistently inconsistent.

his career .817 zone rating and .984 f% bear out the fact that he was about average, defensively, for his career.

[Guest iramets]

It's also worth noting that Mets fans, and certainly Mets management and front office, were generally happy with his defense for a long time. In retrospect, it sucked but who had the balls to say so at the time?

[Guest Yancy Street Gang]

Were Mets fans happy with Alomar's defense? I don't remember either way. I think we were too dismayed at his drop in offense to focus too much on his play in the field.

[Theoldmole]

My first thought, without double-checking it, was that they were all guys who played their whole career with one team. This is probably wrong. But I wonder if guys like Whitaker and Santo suffered at all from playing in the Midwest and never making headlines for getting a fat free agent contract.

[Guest Edgy DC]

The career-with-one-team angle is interesting (obviously wrong, though, when you think of Oliver). But a lot of these guys were, and a smaller percentage of the press corps gets a good look at them.

Dave Winfield had a nice little tenure in several cities, and was productive and genial in most. Eddie Murray may not have been genial, but a lot of pressmen got a long hard look at his game, and a guy who played your town making the Hall is good copy, which probably plays into voting somehow.

I don't think Ron Santo suffered from playing in Chicago, as opposed to playing anywhere else for a full career. It's a big freaking place, and it didn't stop the Billy Williams, Fergie Jenkins, and Ernie Banks candidacies.

He may have suffered from the Cubs not winning a pennant though. The writers may (consciously or not) think they can only acknowledge so many players from a team who couldn't go over the top.

Detroit may be another story, but it's a pretty big place too, with an influential newspaper.

[Guest sharpie]

Al Oliver, at least, played for a bunch of teams. Not sure if he was ever a center fielder though. I mostly remember him as a first baseman.

[Willets Point]

I had the same first thought as Mole but I realized that Will Clark played around thus disproving that notion.

[Guest Rockin' Doc]

Willets - "I had the same first thought as Mole but I realized that Will Clark played around..."

Which really pissed off Mrs. Clark.

[Guest patona314]

Edgy DC wrote: This is from an article I pulled off the the web today. What is the common thread that binds the team below? C: Bill Freehan 1B: Will Clark 2B: Lou Whitaker SS: Bill Dahlen 3B: Ron Santo LF: Bob Johnson CF: Al Oliver RF: Jimmy Wynn SP: Mike Cuellar RP: Dan Quisenberry

go to a site called http://www.whatifsports.com/locker/default.asp

play those guys and see what happens.

[Guest cleonjones11]

Thanks for the SPAM

[nymr83]

cleonjones11 wrote: Thanks for the SPAM

hey kettle! you're black!

[Guest patona314]

cleonjones11 wrote: Thanks for the SPAM

FU MTHRFKR

don't ever accuse me of spamming

[nymr83]

my response was better and is 75% less likely to result in a trip to the redlight forum.

[Guest Edgy DC]

patona314: Don't let Cleon get to you, and please try to keep the flames in the Red Light forum.